/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

>Why?

Avatars are purer for humans than the dead. For some reason your magical progress gets halted as a dead person.

A vampire wizard would function the same as a ghoul mage or a lich.

>Picked up my old Vampire: The Masquerade book and gave it a read out of boredom last week
>Decided to look up how it all ended out of interest
>mfw I read that Tzimisce absorbed all of humanity like it was Third Impact

I mentioned that.

Arete gets frozen as a lich, and for a ghoul (while they are actually empowered by it, they can raise it when the blood runs out).
If you (somehow) have arete 10, that wouldn't be an issue.

Well, here is the interesting thing.
We know why that happens to ghouls, it doesn't happen to revenants.
and judging from the description of it, it wouldn't happen to a hyptohetical vamp-mage.

ayo hol up, was White Wolf at all inspired by End of Evangelion for Gehenna?

I forgot to copy paste the explanation.
It's from black hand v20 (near the part about blood familiars).

Spiritual Stasis: Perhaps the worst part of becoming
a ghoul is that the magus loses the ability to refine her occult enlightenment. Such sorcerers can’t raise their Foundation. The whisper of the Beast, faint as it is in a ghoul, makes it impossible to attain greater communion
with one’s Awakening. Consequently, some subject themselves to cyclical “blood fasts” during which they pursue greater enlightenment, but the hardship of aging and nagging addiction often damages their sanity.

Only revenants can avoid this problem, as they have
long heard the mad whispers in their corrupted blood,
but they still require strict focus to stay the course. They
must maintain a Humanity or Path rating equal to 2 +
the desired Foundation rank until their chosen morality
reaches 10, which allows any rank. If the revenant’s
morality drops below the minimum, her effective rank
temporarily drops to the maximum now permitted.
Awakened revenants who degenerate to a Humanity or
Path rating of 2 or less lose their Awakening permanently.

That's just one of the various possible Gehenna endings.

Almost certainly.

>and judging from the description of it, it wouldn't happen to a hyptohetical vamp-mage.

Eh, debateable. Going by lore solely, Tremere would(should) have reaped this knowledge by now.

Though then again, the lore never did make any sense surrounding this topic.

what do you guys think of the hollow ones? do they still rock the robert smith look for v20?

I am honestly puzzled by user complaining on Onyx Path deciding to futher flesh out the impact of Duress. As far as I can tell no character concept became impossible to do because of it.

Being turned into a vampire or wraith gilgul's your avatar.

This is quite thoroughly stated in Mage the Ascension in multiple places.

They're discussing ways of avoiding it, but it doesn't look good

Vampire mages would just be another kind of lich.

>using Vampire to explain Mage rules

Being a ghoul in Mage is a 5 point merit with no downsides. They only changed that because the vampire players thought it was unfair.

Why do you think the lore doesn't make sense?

Lich is about taking your soul and putting it in a box after severing all connections to it.

What a master of Spirit can do is just forcibly bind it to your body, but the Avatar would be pissed, not help you at all, and you'd never progress in enlightenment since they're against that kinda shit.

The tremere are going to think a vampire mage is unfair.

Not him, but the Tremere/Mage deal just doesn't make sense. It never did.

Crossover was done horrendously in old

fuck that. life isn't balanced.

>Being turned into a vampire or wraith gilgul's your avatar.
> This is quite thoroughly stated in Mage the Ascension in multiple places

Yes and no.

Sometimes it says that. Sometimes it just says the avatar leaves you.
I think in some cases it says both, as if it is uncertain which happens.

So another kind of lich.

Vampire mage would be piss weak as stated since they can't go on spirit quests.

It made a slight bit of sense since the hermetics were looking for old ass spells. Would have made more sense if it was a bunch of hermetic Sorcerers and not Mages, since why the fuck would a hermetic Mage care about spells once they're an Adept or Master. Spells are just foci for them at that level.

The avatar leaving you is it being gilgulled. Gilguling is just the forceful removal of an Avatar.

Why do you think the Avatar Storm is a thing? It's literally a bunch of fallen off Avatars from all the people turned into Wraiths and Vampires flying around in the spirit world.

>Lich is about taking your soul and putting it in a box after severing all connections to it.

Yes and no.
The lich rote in dead magic says you only need spirit 3 if you put it in a phylactry.
If you have spirit 4 you can bind it to yourself or put it in a phylactry

>What a master of Spirit can do is just forcibly bind it to your body, but the Avatar would be pissed, not help you at all, and you'd never progress in enlightenment since they're against that kinda shit.

the avatar doesnt get pissed when a lich binds it to it's body.

just another parasite

that isnt exactly right

If the avatar was just removed from you it would go and reincarnate.

Gilgul not only does that, it also shreds the avatar,. basically killing it and making it incapable of passing to someone else.

>the avatar doesnt get pissed when a lich binds it to it's body.
It should be since you're fucking up your path to enlightenment.
Avatars gets pissed about being turned in Nephandi ones. They get pissed about doing anything that goes against what they want you do to. Hell there's a reason why they can give a +3 difficulty on your casting rolls if you're going against them.

And all Avatars are against gilgulling someone, which makes the 20 successes even harder to get.

Why would a Mage want to become a Vampire? Mages become more powerful than Vampires relatively quickly. Any Mage with a 5 in any sphere will absolutely destroy any Elder Vampire. Forces 5 lets them create a literal sun in the palm of their hand. Trading that kind of power for Vampiric disciplines is a bad trade.

>If the avatar was just removed from you it would go and reincarnate.
You realize your avatar is attached to your soul right? It doesn't just get attached to. It's literally a part of your higher soul that grows as you go through reincarnation cycles. The people with higher Avatar ratings have been Mages through multiple life cycles and haven't lost their Avatar through them at all.

your arete gets frozen, but it says its because liches are too staticly resonant.

Tremere was canonically an idiot.

The idea of immortality at the cost of halting your magical progress is tempting, I suppose?

You'll just have to become sufficiently powerful before you do it, or forever regret the decision.

Can you believe that the old (really old) supplements actually suggested he was an archmage?

Don't insult Tremere, he was turned into a vampire by accident. All he was trying to do was find an immortality potion that would work.

Goratrix was the fucker that turned him.

Not really. Life 3 spell can reverse aging via cellular regeneration. Time can also do it.
Alternatively, you can slow it down with great ease.
You don't get Permanent Paradox on Earth until you're over the age of 150 IIRC. One point per 50 years or so.
And even then, you can remove all connections to your former identity and make a new one, and remove that problem. Immortality isn't a problem for a mage.

Losing your awakened magic for vamp powers is a bad trade.
somehow managing to get both is not that bad a trade.

Why would they want that?
Well, here are a few possibilities:
Immortality, in a way that doesnt give more paradox the longer you live.

"Science"

Seeking to understand certain things through experience.

backup powers usable without risk of paradox.
Vampires have some powers that would give you a ton of paradox if you did something like that with the spheres.

That's exactly it though. This immortality doesn't garner Paradox.

No. There's no way to prevent Paradox hating you for living longer than your due.

There's a reason why the most powerful of wizards aren't on earth.

Yes and?

You want immortality free of paradox, use what I said before or just spend a century out in the Umbra becoming a master Sorcerer and learning Alchemy. Make a linear magic potion that makes you immortal.
That's a canonical thing that exists. All it takes is a century of training.

Yeah, but why halt your enlightenment. You won't increase in power.

It's not a good trade in the long run.

Most don't want to. The few that do are prepared to abandon their magic for youth and getting to be with their sire, or don't understand what happens to a mage when embraced, a result that seems likely given how rare it is.

Note that, between capability and the inherent danger of the world of darkness almost no mages will ever reach 5 in any sphere, the same way almost no vampires will ever become elders. If madness doesn't get you then getting back stabbed by someone that you crossed will.

>The idea of immortality at the cost of halting your magical progress is tempting, I suppose?
>You'll just have to become sufficiently powerful before you do it, or forever regret the decision.

I'm not even sure if that would be the cost.

see this post:
Given how it works with revenants, you would probably just have to raise your path rating. after existing as a vampire for a while.

That citation only proves my point.

The reason why that doesn't hold is because it runs against how the avatar works in other editions.

Conflicting lore seems to think that method as preposterous.

>Note that, between capability and the inherent danger of the world of darkness almost no mages will ever reach 5 in any sphere
Well as long as you stay a mage you always have the potential to improve and become a master. Once you give in and become a 10th Generation Vamp bitch you're stuck like that forever. And your immortality probably won't last much longer than it would've if you just extended your lifespan with Life or Time considering how volatile vampire life is for neonates or ancillae caught in the grasp of the jyhad

I've a hunch that this topic is because of a certain vampfag jealous of mage.

Rules according to Mage is that anything said in another splat line is canonically wrong to the Mage splat line.

Mage lore in the Mage splat line is the correct lore and anything said about Mages in VtM or WtA is wrong more than likely.

>You start training at 30 to make your potion.
>Get heart disease at 48 and die at 64.
>"Only.. 66 years of learning left before I'd have been immortal!"

>You start training at 30 to make your potion.
>World ends when you are 64, devoured by a badly written villain with no coherent motivation.
>"Only.. 66 years of learning left before I'd have been immortal!"

Linear sorcery/technomagic/psionics is another thing that is worth having, even if you have awakened magic.

ANyways in regards to immortality.
You need 6 dots in the alchemy path for immortality (at least in sorcerer revised)

That level allows you to make some cool shit.
it says they can make a philospohers stone, and immortality regiments (presumably these would have to be done periodicly)

It says that in theory you can make stuff that would:
Awaken the avatar.
Grant true immortality.
mummify people
turn someone into a vampire.

A Vampire-Mage hybrid would lose pretty much all of its former potential. Maybe not in the Vampire category, but definitely the Mage one.

Anything deducting this is out-of-line with setting canon.

so your saying most mages would have shit humanity or path scores.

The world is dying.

There's 20 years on the clock at best. The only thing you need to live long enough to see God come out, turn out the lights and put up the chairs at closing time is to not eat as much Taco Bell. Immortality is like getting a card for all you can eat thirty seconds before someone lights the buffet on fire.

lmao, just turn the other vampires into chairs.

Yeah.

It's pretty good. But you can also make life extenders at levels below that, since those are way easier than true immortality.

6 dots is also the rating for mythic levels of sorcery. Only one person has been that level of skilled, possibly two: Isis and Merlin. They were both also mages.

Weird how hermetics start learning sorcery and then just stop once they Awaken.

Well according to blood treachery*, ghouls can raise their arete ratings unless their avatar (not them) is addicted to vamp blood.

*this is a mage book. it also has some fun antivampire spells.

That's a good point too, but the characters don't know the apocalypse is right around the corner so you can't really fault them for not taking it into account

Yeah, it's almost like the games were written separately and barely fit into each other or interact.

That's as much of a Mage book as it is a Vampire book.

In Mage core, being a Ghoul is a 5 dot merit. The writer of that book was a huge fucking retard that didn't like Mage.

Yeah I got the feeling Blood Treachery was biased towards Vampire a bit. The story of the book is basically the Order of Hermes getting it's knickers in a twist and declaring war against the Tremere again then getting their assholes smashed so far in they could taste their colon.

mage core books dont mention any additional downside for being a ghoul?

It's really terrible and sad since it doesn't show terribly powerful a Hermetic Mage is.

Seriously, members of House Flamebeu are terrifying mother fuckers. They're called nukes for a reason.

Nope. 5 point merit.

Yeah, even m20 doesnt give any downsides for your magic.

M20 does give a downside for a ghoul actually.
Kinda sorta.

In M20 you can't use Mind magic to break the bond for some reason and they put the requires to break a blood binding at stupid levels. Some reason you need Life 4, Mind 3, Entropy 3, and Prime 1. Should just be Mind 2 to nullify it.
Mind 1 is shielding thoughts, and Mind 2 to give it to another.

iirc Tremere had noticed a future decline in the power and potence in magic, therefore wanted to take precautions against it, I don't know how this was tied to their quest for imnortality but "magic is dying" meme was the spark.
Also mind you that when the Tremere became vampire and they did not expected their avatars to be destroyed. Thaumaturgy was literally invented as a substitute.

I still find Tremere to be too much of a marry sue though. They did a lot of mistakes yet they either survived or won, again and again and again. Realistically (in owod standards) they should have been destroyed loong ago.

>Magic cursed blood that joins you to a vampire like Mina to Dracula

>Easier to get rid of then a crush on a cute boy in math class.

It's pretty simple actually.

In the Dark Ages, someone said that their spells seem to be getting weaker. So all the Hermetics believed it, and since they believe it, it started to happen. So their immortality potion, which was what triggered it, started was not nearly as effective needed to be revised.

So they began looking for a revision, and Goratrix suggested using vampire blood since they're immortal. One thing lead to another, and that's how Ravnos rose from Torpor.

At least he got cucked in the end

thats pretty gay user,

>Elder vampire that can enslave dozens of people at once
>Can use Mind 1 to laugh him
>Can't remove some annoying binding that makes you fall in love with him like a cute boy in math class because REASONS and is a binding that any vampire can do

>So their immortality potion, which was what triggered it, started
ah the longevity ritual (at least that was the name for it in Ars Magica) but still evne with longevity ritual you are not expect to be "immortal" per se.
Most founders of Order of Hermes were dead before 1000s even with longevity ritual and "magic not dying". Yeah mages lived long but they were never ever immortal. Tremere was alive because he was the youngest of the founding members

No problem

Just learn puppetry and outrage as a wraith.

Bam, you're immortal, baby!

in other words, we are not immortal anymore therefore we should find another way to become immortal meme is absurd, I don't thnik mages were ever immortal. Maybe the whole magic is dying meme effected their longevity ritual? That I can find convincing

I mean, Tytalus is still alive and kicking. He went off to solo Mab, the Winter Queen in a fight to prove his worth. No idea what happened to him, but he never reincarnated and the gates to Arcadia closed shortly after he did it go in.

I choose to believe they fell in love and are living a happy life some where after blowing up some city during a duel.

I thought Voormas was the oldest mage and he's only around 600 years old

>Also mind you that when the Tremere became vampire and they did not expected their avatars to be destroyed.

This is why you do your research, before turning yourself into something else.

They weren't Immortal.
The ritual in question is literally the same as the one in Ars Magica but mechanically was weakening because they thought it was.
This is why the Technocrats invented Science, to prevent this kinda shit from happening.

They even statted out the ritual

What gets me about Tremere is why on earth Order of Hermes did not accept them? I understand Tzimiche being angry about getting experiemented on, but why the fuck you declare a wizard war just because they became vampires? Just cut off any relationships if you are so anal about being human.

pic unrelated, though I want this meme to have a comeback.
I hope so, Tytalus is my favorite founder
A big plothole on White Wolfs part, I think thats why the initial "embrace" of tremere and council members are filled with confusion and misunderstandings

Drinking vampire blood has a bunch of mumbo-jumbo effects and is best avoided.

>What gets me about Tremere is why on earth Order of Hermes did not accept them? I understand Tzimiche being angry about getting experiemented on, but why the fuck you declare a wizard war just because they became vampires? Just cut off any relationships if you are so anal about being human.
One of the rules of the Order is you can't be involved with the Undead, Vampires or otherwise. It's a strict thing you can't do at all. Breaking any of the rules is subject to punishment with the highest being death and gilgul.

These fuckers began forcibly turning Mages into Vampires and using their Arcane knowledge for wicked use. Pretty evil stuff that goes against the Order's Principles.

>why would wizards be mad that a bunch of dumbos threw away their magic and became bloodsucking abominations of the night
No clue.

I think Teremere asking people if this drink taste funny to them got old fast in Hogwarts so the Hermetics told 'em to go and stay gone.

be mad okay why on earth you declare war upon them? just kick them out why declare a wizards march? Seems absurd to me
is that in the hermetic code? I think it was leave faeries alone and dont fuck with demons and that was about it
makes more sence to be honest.

Modern media has made Vampires too sexy. Why would the Order not want to associate with them? Imagine if they did a ritual to become immortal blood sucking lampreys instead. Would you want to associate with them? Hell no it's fucking disgusting.

>be mad okay why on earth you declare war upon them?
BECAUSE HERESY

they didnt march on Tytalus when they flirted with diabolism though, just saying.

>is that in the hermetic code? I think it was leave faeries alone and dont fuck with demons and that was about it
Yes.
It's in the same line as the Demons and Fae one.

>I shall not through action or inaction endanger the Order, nor consort with devils or undead, nor anger the fae.

First of all - drinking his blood creates sympathetic link between his and yours vitae

There's a Bane spirit that actually does this.

Well that's more understandable. Vampires are more detestable than demons.

does what?
turn vampires into lampreys?normal people into lampreys?

>We're going to march on the Generals

Yeah, that's kinda hard to do. Tytalans are the generals of the Order of Hermes. They're all about getting into fights to learn and grow. Tytalans normally would regulate themselves.

Vampires into lampreys. Sorta lampreys.

Often is is actually true in OWoD. Demons were just presented with an impossible, damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't choice, then sent into eternal sensory deprivation for picking what made sense.