What alignment is he?

What alignment is he?

Neutral Murder.

Problematic Tonedeaf

I'd personally classify him as Lawful Evil but that's just what I usually ascribe to people defined by their vendettas that have a code by which they enact them.

lawful neutral?

he does good
he does evil
he has a personal code that dictates when he does which
lawful neutral.

>Daredevil Season 2
Chaotic Neutral, with some flairs of Neutral Good and Neutral Evil

>Punisher standalone series
An extremely brutal form of Chaotic Good

>Aggregate Frank across all media
Neutral Evil who mostly targets other Evil characters. Mostly.

>Neutral Evil who mostly targets other Evil characters. Mostly.

My favorite

>I call them as I see them, and it doesn't matter if the public sees you as a hero if I see you as a villain

Polygon pls go and stay go.

Murder.

Even before Bernthal Frank, Punisher was extremely popular with military and law enforcement types. I even asked several cops what they'd think of some guy running around murdering gangbangers and rapists. They said he wouldn't be too high on their list of people they'd wanna arrest.

I've always liked the idea that Frank Castle was just a monster kept in check only by the fact he had a family. Once that was taken away any pre-text of being a normal human went away with it and he could act in accordance with his true nature.

I mean, if it works it works

Criminals have shown time and time again that they aren't afraid of killing cops, and most of the guys frank franked were cop killers, or at least connected to them or affiliated with an organization that is known for killing cops

So you know, treat others as you want to be treated

Wow, I can't even. Go back to pol with the rest of the Nazis

Lawful stupid.

That's kind of nonsensical, because a monster wouldn't have a family to start with. It's losing his family that changes him.

>Blatantly breaks the law frequently
>His methods are arguably just as if not more effective than those of police officers and moralfag "heroes" like Daredevil.

Frank's actions are barbaric and he's honestly not much better than the people he franks from a moral standpoint. But he's neither Lawful nor Stupid.

>His methods are arguably just as if not more effective than those of police officers and moralfag "heroes" like Daredevil.

I dunno, Daredevil is the one who's come closer to permanently stopping the Kingpin than Frank Castle. Castle's too focused on 'Punish all the sinners 'til there's no sinners left' to look big picture a lot of the time.

Chaotic Neutral.

He's a vigilante, and though extreme in his methods, ultimately does more good than evil, but falls quite frequently and has to build himself up again. He's not good, but he's not all evil either.

He's an anti-hero, and that's generally what anti-heroes end up as.

Daredevil also, like most Good heroes, gets sidetracked by his dick a lot.

Frank has no such hangups.

Frank is too good for a system that uses alignments.

>wah, I'm triggered on a D&D board!

Maybe if you left, you wouldn't get triggered?

Chaotic Autism.

...

Lawful evil.
And my best freind.

itsjoke
chill

>Archie meets Frank

So was this like an ironic thing where Frank goes to the soda bar, or was it like the Predator comic where he goes and slaughters everyone?

...

>the regular Archie continuity (not Riverdale, mind) is so dangerous the Punisher almost got killed

TV Punisher is Chaotic Good
Comic Punisher is Lawful Neutral-Evil

Everyone is every alignment at different times
I'm usually true neutral

Chaotic Good

this would be funny but /pol/ is filled with nazis

>a monster wouldn't have a family to start with
Charles Manson is laughing at you from beyond the grave.

Lawful does not and has never meant "always follows the laws of the local government."
>he's honestly not much better than the people he franks from a moral standpoint.
Very debatable.

Kay but Charlie boy was blatantly manipulating his "family" for loyalty and sex. Frank was a genuine family man.

Is he wearing boob armor?

Nah it's just the way he painted the skull mixed with the lighting.

The only armor Frank wears is Frank Armor.

Don't try to start nitpicking now. "Monsters" generally have families, too. Unless you're discounting mobsters who regularly chop people into pieces, or serial killers, or rapists, or anyone who the general public may see as "monstrous".

Frank Castle is a killer-par-excellence, with few scruples about how he kills the people he kills. He's a monster in the eyes of the gen pop. Losing his family just gave him incentive to indulge.

Someone should edit those lights to evoke a sense of loss

The idea is that monsters don't care. That's what a sociopath is. They don't care about their families aside from what benefits they get from having them.

Frank cared. Cared a lot. And, it's a really terrible thing to try to take away the central pillar of a character just in order to try to make him more edgy.

To have him be a chained monster just waiting for his family to die in order to reveal his true self writes the character into a corner where no matter what, he's just some lame sadistic power fantasy with only a veneer of depth.

i also wouldn't want to try to arrest the punisher.

Depends on which Punisher.

Bernthal Frank was cornered by a soldier trying to arrest him while he was escaping a military base. Frank very earnestly pleaded the just to back off, and let the kid off easy with a through and through to the shoulder.

>o have him be a chained monster just waiting for his family to die in order to reveal his true self writes the character into a corner where no matter what, he's just some lame sadistic power fantasy with only a veneer of depth.

It doesn't have to be that edgy. I'm not familiar with all the iterations of Frank Castle but wasn't there a comic that showed him fighting in Vietnam? Imagine he becoming this bloody monster in war, coming home to finally put it all behind him and then when his family is killed the monster comes back and is now here to stay. He doesn't have to be "Man I really wish I could hoist someone into the air on a meat hook and set them on fire, but I have to take my kids to school" edgy or anything like that.

I think a good way to surmize what i'm getting at is looking at the Crusader from Darkess Dungeon except rather than choosing not to go home he tries and circumstances make him don his armor and throw his morals to the wind.

>franked

now my favorite verb for this

I still hold out hope for the Riverdale/Punisher crossover episode

Punisher Born. Frank was responded to the trauma of war by growing into the trauma, becoming the best soldier he could be in order to save as many of his fellow Marines as possible, but keeping his edge made coming home uncomfortable, leaving him a fish out of water when on leave. So he keeps going back, but as morale suffers in the face of discontent at home, keeping his fellows safe becomes harder and harder, until he fails. And when he fails, he accepts a deal with Death to save his life and make it back to his family. That deal is an easy deal for him to accept, the deal is to be a soldier in an eternal war, what he doesn't know is what the cost of the deal would be.

At peace, he returns home, to his family, but then the Death takes his price, and Frank is irrevocably turned into a the Punisher. His personal war is both the cost of his survival and the way he protects his own psyche.

40 YEARS IN THE CUBES

Chaotic Frank

There really isn't a better word for what people suffer at the hands of Frank's literally weapons-grade autism.

As the chosen of God himself to bring punishment to the wicked he is Lawful Good.

Was gonna say it depends on the writer, but if Frank's intent is solely to cause harm to others (like in MAX) then he's deffo on the evil side of the spectrum, probably lawful in terms of how he adheres to his own code. If he legitimately wants to help people by cleaning up the streets in his ruthlessly unorthodox way, then he's more chaotic good.

You really need to read The Tyger and Valley Forge, Valley Forge along with Born to get the real picture of Ennis MAX's Frank. There's a pretty strong implication that he was always drawn to violence and that he's more or less a serial killer whose family's death was simply the impetus for him to embrace it. When reading Ennis MAX one should really pay attention at the stark disparity in how much attention is given to Vietnam compared to his family.

Or you could simply ascribe to the implication in Born that he's literally fueled by Satan.

>tfw Daredevil Season 2 and The Defenders was all about the ramifications of Matt's use of his dick

I thought Shane was dead...

Lawful Neutral.

why the fuck are neogaf still here? Kill these heretics.

Well, he is Catholic, it is to be expected. It was marriage outside of sex, not in the missionary position, with no intentions of procreation.

He went /d/ with his D, and catholic boys don't get away with that.

>Veeky Forums discussions of the punisher TV show are both more civil and insightful than those on /co/ and /tv/
Oh

/co/, and /k/, have a massive hardon for Ennis MAX version of Punisher and tend to not like anything that deviates from it, including the vast majority of Punisher comics published. /tv/'s a shithole

/tv/ has a massive hate boner for anything new and popular and therefore hates the Netflix Marvel shows. While I can agree they're pretty hit or miss, Jon Bernthal as Frank is the most on point casting since Jackie Earle Haley as Rorschach.

It's actually really good because not only is it a standard Punisher comic where he comes to a small town on the trail of a hardened criminal to execute him, it's also a standard Archie comic where there's some guy who looks just like Archie going around bein' a jerk and that gets everyone mad at Archie!

He's chaotic in that how much he hates a person depends on how well he treats them. Your average gangbanger gets put down as quickly as possible but for those who piss him off? He goes the extra mile to make them suffer.

Pic related is from when he tracked down a woman who was the ringleader for a kidnapping/sex traffic ring, he went on to throw her against her bullet proof window until the frame broke and she plummeted twelve stories.

There's also the story of the up and coming ganglord who thought it would be a great idea to dig up Frank's dead family, piss on their corpses and force a news station to broadcast it just so he could send a message about how hardcore he is.

Frank managed to kidnap the guy, drove him out to some far out wilderness area then shot him in the lower gut. He left him there after telling him about how bad a gut shot wound can be when left untreated.

>There's also the story of the up and coming ganglord who thought it would be a great idea to dig up Frank's dead family, piss on their corpses and force a news station to broadcast it just so he could send a message about how hardcore he is.
>Some guy thinks tryharding the Punisher will go over well.

has it right. Castle is just a psycho murderer who the metatextual media (comics, cartoon, tv, etc.) glorifies.

> chaotic netual

I'm glad someone remember that means "someone who plays by their own rules and does what's wrong to do what's right", rather then "lol deadpool random".

Joss Whedon go home.

I dunno, his murderboner gets him in a lot of trouble.

Yeah, it was interesting getting yelled at for the idea that the Punisher could ever show mercy when...that's a LOT of his teamups with Captain America/Spiderman (As opposed to when he tried to kill spiderman). They help bring out the better side of him, which is buried under a whole lot of shit.

D&D board?

Ugly mug

>teamups with Cap

I don't read the comics but I feel like this lends itself to incredibly interesting stories. Cap and Frank come from very similar backgrounds but they handled the experiences quite differently.

Well yeah that's true but my point calling Frank short-sighted is a little unfair when Murdock loses focus whenever he hears a pair of boobs walk into the room.

Yeah, they come from a similar enough place that honestly they've fought more than teamed up. Each had a life changing event...and both of them are utterly stubborn. It doesn't help that both of them suffer from 'Being very poorly written' with a lot of the encounters.

Still, there are some great moments.

Patriot Frank really is Best Frank.

I like how they expanded on this in the Netflix series. It was fun seeing him reconcile his actions with his military service. It's obvious the writers knew who their audience was and did a good job of reaching them.

I think that word doesn't means what you think it means

Back in the Civil War comics Frank joined up with Team Cap, but it only lasted until he franked some C-list villains that also enlisted. Best part was Frank not lifting a finger to defend himself when Cap went to town on him for it, because Frank just respects Cap that much.

Even though the overall story was garbage, Civil War had a lot of great moments.

Yeah, I have issues when writers go 200% '90s Gun advocate murder fantasy' with the Punisher. He's a flawed person but some writers forget that and just treat him as a badass who knows how it should 'Really be'.

>it only lasted until he franked some C-list villains that also enlisted

Not sure who this makes look dumber. Frank for outright teamkilling, or Cap for signing on villains when the fucking Punisher is on his team.

Either way, that's actually a pretty interesting angle. I know it will never happen, but I would love to see MCU Cap and Netflix Frank interact before the former eventually gets killed off, freeing Chris Evans for a few years.

Chaotic Evil

I mean, he works for the Mouse.

Yeah, MCU Cap/Netflix Frank would be a good meeting as both of them are close to the characters at their best. Cap is a patriot but he's not a chauvinist (In the classical sense), he supports America as an ideal rather than blindly following and the Punisher is flawed and hurt.

Though I'd like to see Frank/Falcon myself. Remember: The latter was running support groups for veterans when he met cap.

I refuse to do shitty D&D alignments. In Palladium's terms he is Scrupulous alignment.
Chaotic Good in D&D, obviously.

Frank and Falcon might be kinda cool. He's just low enough on the MCU roster to potentially make an appearance in the Netflix show.

They probably won't though, because "amiable black soldierman running a veterans group" was in itself already a major plot point in the Netflix show.

Aside from Cap and Falcon I can't really think of many other MCU characters which would be fun to see interact with Frank. I think an encounter with Stark would at best be a gruff exchange of words and at worst a spergoff because they're both Type A control freaks.

Renner Hawkeye might be kinda cool because he's everything Frank used to be.

>They probably won't though, because "amiable black soldierman running a veterans group" was in itself already a major plot point in the Netflix show.

Yeah, a bit of overlap. Black Widow/Frank could potentially work if it wasn't for the fact she finds it basically impossible to actually open up about the sort of shit she's been through. She's got just as much blood on her hands as he does and a good bit of it was innocent people.

He is the very definition of chaotic good

Depends on the writers, in some he is the chosen champion for certain demons, while others he's just a vigilante following a code.

I know "depends on the writers" is a universal problem for all comic book characters but Frank is especially susceptible to it. I find he's usually written by three "camps" of writers:

>Edgy nihilistic gun nuts who see him as the ultimate sheepdog power fantasy
>Pessimistic types who regard him as a jackbooted thug and try making the audience feel the same
>Military/ LEO fans or actual veterans who use him as a vehicle for social problems facing this class of people

There's overlap and a wide range of quality across all three but I find that's who gravitates towards writing Frank.

Yeah, Cap has a similar issue where as a patriotic character he's very susceptible to writers coming in and writing him terribly as he innately ties into politics and national identity.

I honestly can't think of any other comic characters who get so thoroughly caught up in the writer's politics except maybe Batman.

...

...green lantern? Did you...read the image name? That's batman.

If it's Garth ennis version, piece of shit author avatar

Yeah I know, that's why I deleted my post. Egg on my face.

Are we sure you are not Hal Jordan?

Of course not. Hal Jordon isn't even real and besides I have more important things to do than post on Veeky Forums.

Oh well that's cleared up. Thanks Hal.

He said "egg on my face" not "girlfriend in my fridge."

That's Kyle Rayner mate.

>Criminals have shown time and time again that they aren't afraid of killing cops, and most of the guys frank franked were cop killers, or at least connected to them or affiliated with an organization that is known for killing cops
One of the issues with applying the Punisher logic in real life (aside from simple logistics; a real life guy wouldn’t have the seemingly unlimited ammunition supply Frank has that is handwaved away at best), is that it is definitely NOT an unwillingness to apply lethal force that stops cops from having shootouts with organized criminals, because most reliable evidence shows that cops in the USA are super willing to blow away the fuck out of immediate threats and apply lethal force quite frequently when danger is there.
The issue is that even thinking of “organized crime” in the Mafia fashion or “highly numerous and massively armed street gang” fashion is actually a pretty outdated way of looking at it, as criminals that DID operate that way mostly got buttfucked by the FBI in the late 80’s and early 90’s (since, you know, it’s REALLY EASY to find and track criminals who use violence so frequently, especially armed violence). Now far more frequent is staying under the radar and relying on cell-like gang structures where organization is looser and nobody really knows everything except the guy at the top, who often isn’t even really conclusively IDed.

Frank Castle was a character created during the 1970’s when a violent murder by gunfire happened pretty much every other day in New Year City and anyone walking across Central Park at night could literally just vanish and never be found, but by 1993 NYC is one of the safest cities in the country and I can personally attest to crossing the Park at night and being perfectly unharmed.
It’s a mistake to assume that organized criminal activity hasn’t changed in the nearly fifty years since his creation, because it REALLY HAS in a ton ways.

The hilarity of writers doing that is during the 90’s when his popularity exploded his methods already sort of wouldn’t work anymore because organized crime violence was suddenly massively less common then “random, unplanned shootings” or “beats his housewife” violence.
A modern day Punisher dealing with criminals actually relevant to modern day would actually look even more insane because he’d be breaking into domestic houses most of the time and mowing down unarmed civilians almost exclusively, because at least in the current US most violence is largely concentrated in the suburbs among regular people.

....though an entire comic of Frank kicking down doors and mowing down regular people would be darkly funny in a warped sort of way.

It would, but don't expect it anytime soon. As mentioned, Frank's biggest fans are cops and soldiers and that's been the case basically since 9/11. Jon Bernthal himself even acknowledged this and said he respected how important the character is to them. With that kind of target audience, I think it's safe to say CG Frank is here to stay.