Realistic WW2 sexism

Our group is starting gurps game about Nazis, spies and the occult set just before and during WW2. One of our players wants to play a women. What restrictions and unique challenges would help sell the time period realistically? What ways could we use benevolent sexism to also help sell it so the player doesn't feel like his PC is completely gimped?

Women spies have always had the advantage of being underestimated. Men enjoy being nice to women, even with no expectation of sex.

If the character is a capable spy, the handlers will consider her a useful tool like any of the men.

In the US at the time, women could own property and manage their own finances, but being single and working outside the home with a bunch of men probably marks her as a whore or a crazy spinster. It wouldn't be unusual for men to make casual advances, or for women to distrust her as a potential homewrecker.

Women were not really expected to see combat, but while women in the workplace were rarer then today it was not “unheard of” to see one because of manpower shortages in many places during this period of time. In the espionage world female spies were indeed a thing, but they probably did more message ferrying and note-taking rather then gritty fieldwork since that is something grounded more on military combat experience that for the most part was not a thing for most countries when it comes to women.
That said they’d probably be more like “good god, you’re a woman” and then be vaguely uncomfortable in their presence rather then be deliberately rude. My grandpa once told me that his dad’s generation basically had zero idea of how to act around women and how to talk around them because they just weren’t used to seeing them outside of domestic environments, so they were basically spilling their spaghetti 1940’s.

That said, avoid doing this at all unless your players are okay with it and you ask them beforehand.

It’s weird in modern day, but OTHER women really looked down on unmarried women a lot of the time back then.
A hilarious example is in the original pilot for Star Trek, actress Majel Barret basically had Spock’s personality and character and even role as “Number One” aboard the ship. Apparently her character tested VERY poorly with female test audiences who all complained that she was “trying too hard to be one of the boys”.

We had vague ideas for scenarios where if the team was captured all the men would be locked up and an actual cell and the female pc would be locked up either in a different cell or a just handcuffed in a nice waiting room. I'm not the GM, the GM is a bit of a sadist with a hard on for "muh realism". Im just trying to gather ideas to make it so my friend can play the PC they want and the GM can still get his rocks off.

They probably WOULD be taken into a separate room “for decency’s sake” by any but the more intelligent and hard-nosed sort.

Nothing's really changed, it's just coded a little differently.

>What restrictions and unique challenges would help sell the time period realistically?
I don't know mate, I'd say being a woman is already enough of a penalty without getting socially fucked over for it.

I dont think giving the GM the idea that the PC should worry about her menstrual cycle is in itself a good idea.

I'm pretty sure women have bigger penalties than just menstruation. Like -3 ALL

I don't think they'd be so concerned with her comfort if they know she's actually blowing up bridges and killing their countrymen. They might separate her, simply because men get brave when there's a woman to protect.

If she's questioned by low level authorities who are just a little suspicious, then yeah, sure, they might be lenient like that.

It's a bit too dark for enjoyable gaming, but if you capture a female operative along with a group of men, you should really torture her brutally to break the men, or manipulate her to betray them. Or just shoot them all and dump them in a hole if you don't need something from them.

Watch "Army of Shadows". It's a great film about the french resistance, written and directed by a guy who was there.

We are pretty sure you are a underage retard.

Dont be a misanthropist just because you have to finger-bang yourself at night, you sad and lonely little bitch.

Some bits of misogyny that should be fun without going over the top for a 1940s game..

1) Expected subservience. A woman is expected to fetch coffee, clean up, provide snacks and cigarettes. If there is domestic work to do around an office or camp it seems natural that she would do it. It's also expected that she will wait to be spoken to to speak and allow men to interrupt her. Failing to do these can get her disapproval from people in power, men and women, that feel like she's not being a team player/is a bitch.

2) Condescending behavior. Being infantilized and underestimated is pretty much constant.

Like this, but the enemy might think that a few kind words and a promise of a treat can get her to talk as if she's a misbehaving child, or doesn't understand the situation. A man to be 'in charge' of her is expected. An independent woman would be unusual, they will expect she's operating under the supervision and direction of a man.

3) Extreme modesty expectations.

Anything about being a adult, sexual person that has a body will be considered obscene. A lady can barely eat in public without getting hard looks. Any hints that she urinates, menstruates or masturbates will be treated as utterly fucking scandalous, despite the fact that men in the unit won't think anything of pissing in front of each other.

How about 2d6 +3 to reflect lower variance?

back than?

Women utterly despise each other.
They are not creatures that can form bonds with each other like men do.

except yuri, they are too pure

Like the other anons said, women were advantaged as spies because they weren't suspected and people (especially men) were very confortable around them. There are a lot of stories about women using their charms to get information out of military figures and that's for a good reason, there were females like that.

But there are other routes you can take with the "female in 1940" kind of vibe : You have the Night Witches. Now granted that's on the russian side but if the player wants to play as a female while not being restricted to only using her titties to get what she wants or help the group, there are options.

I played a Night Witch once in a Cthulhu game and it was really fun. Check out the wikipedia page for them, they were the most decorated flying unit in Russian history and impressive for their bravery (I'd say they were daredevils).

I'm not him or anything like him for that matter, but the fact that you post that with that gif makes me think you're an angsty fifteen year old.

> I played a Night Witch once in a Cthulhu game...

Thats actually a really good idea. I'll suggest this and maybe a tech expert to the group if it comes up. thank you.

I think all of these are pretty good. Our GM is going to jump on number 1 like a hot cake, but I think the other players are going to have fun with number 3. I know I will.

I'm worse. I'm an animator. have a happy baby gif to sooth the soul.

British intelligence agents and paramilitaries in Northern Ireland often operated in Male/Female teams. Two guys in a car driving by are a lot more suspicious than a man and a woman.

no problem man, it's always nice to help people get out of the classic "woman seductive spy" character.
not that it's particularly sexist cause that's actually one of the most logical role a PC could have if female, but... It's so overdone.

lol, its true, and lets be honest, we really dont want to have to suffer through watching our GM role-play a seduction with one of us. :P

I find it funny that men think a menstrual cycle would even be noticeable to the rest of a party

>3) Extreme modesty expectations.
>Extreme
>Avoiding public mentions of pissing, bleeding and schlicking is "extreme modesty" rather than common fucking decency
My apologies, I forgot this is the era in which a woman can piss blood on a canvas and call it art.

He's making us keep track of food and water. I wouldnt put it past him if he gets pissy.

food and water rate way higher than a period, the only thing would be if he forced your character to be someone who gets serious cramps from a period, and if he did do that, I'd demand he gives someone else diabetes or IBS or something.

Periods arent a big deal at all, literally not even a thing

>Google is hard, I don't want to do any research, can you do my homework for me Veeky Forums?
Fuck off back to Veeky Forums.

So I dont know how much we can argue around this. I mean, I think your right that they shouldn't be included in-game because it would be a shitty mechanic, but I don't agree with you about why. It would fit into his ever stupidly widening idea of "realistic game-play" because it really does make for an annoying challenge. But yeah, forcing people to manage diabetes is also not something we're going to volunteer. We'll stick to crippling alcoholism and gambling like every sane grups player.

what I'm saying is that for a period to be anything more than just showering, washing your clothes, brushing your teeth or other normie stuff; you would have to actually have a medical issue that causes abnormal periods

>a menstrual cycle would even be noticeable to the rest of a party
Well, there's the smell - even if you wash thoroughly and regularly, even if you try to cover it with perfumes it will be there. Not saying it's unpleasant, but it totally is noticeable.
Besides that it varies person to person - for some (probably majority) it ultimately makes no difference, for other it's a slight shift you may notice if you know to look for it and for rare unlucky few it's like a goddamn werewolf.

>Well, there's the smell - even if you wash thoroughly and regularly, even if you try to cover it with perfumes it will be there. Not saying it's unpleasant, but it totally is noticeable.
Have you ever met a woman who wasn't your mom? This is the most stupidly misinformed conversation I've had on Veeky Forums and that's saying a lot

I have to say that some women have a terrible time during their period, downright crippling for everyday life.
But in anyway, anyhow and no matter how you're considering the issue it's just not a game mechanic anyone should include, except if you already roll on a table during character creation to determine a potential rare disease or after every week to check if you're gonna get constipation or diarrhea.

You godforsaken hair on a mule's ass, google doesn't offer easy translations for X = Y where X is a real life situation and Y is a game mechanic. That's why we have these message boards, where people can discuss things.

Your right and your wrong you know? Like, yes, it *should* be, but I've worked with enough women's shelters to know that periods absolutely suck when your homeless. If you have the infrastructure for it its ok, but its down right nasty when you dont.

It wouldn't be considered sexism, it'd be considered normal at the time

The NatSocs were all about traditional roles. Hitler even speak about it in the Mein Kampf, so you can expect a lot of restrictions.

I suppose a female with knowledge of the occult can have the support of Himmler and the SS though

It's a ww2 game with spies, how is that homeless. Also if it was a fantasy game, then wouldn't the smell of sweat and unwashed dwarfs and barbarians and all sorts of garbage be much more noticeable?

To be fair, being feminine and being useful are *technically* not mutually exclusive. It's just an extremely rare combination.

We've already demonstrated you're incapable of critical thought. Bit odd to brag about it.

Pic related.

>I suppose a female with knowledge of the occult can have the support of Himmler and the SS though
This was literally a thing that happened.

The thing is being feminine was a *requirement* at the time to get anywhere as a woman, except if you were amazingly useful. the only woman that were allowed to fight, build, research or decide were the ones that were demonstrabely better than most men.

It's the same today. Women complain a lot about other women, they're just a bit more discreet

You're missing the point here: if a woman by some miracle becomes useful she doesn't stop being feminine. You can both be useful and conform to feminine social expectations.

There was a woman in Hitler's government : Gertrud Scholtz-Klink. She took care of nazi propaganda aimed at women.

>and conform to feminine social expectations
Infact I would say it's required

Usually no. Women like that were usually seen as shocking. Wearing pants, not being married, hunting, having men's job... That was not being "feminine". But they got away with it (for the most part) because they were so damn good.

I think we're talking about two different things here. Im think more along the lines of what is talking about.

(you)

I think is talking about social conventions. It's really hard to fight social conventions, and maybe something a spy shouldn't be doing.

>Gertrud Scholtz-Klink
>detained in a Soviet prisoner of war camp, but escaped shortly after
>Died aged 97
that was one tough Fraulein

She had to be
fragile women wouldn't get recognition or power from governments at this time

Wasn't there a counterpart to the Thule society that was all female? What ever happend them?

>Be woman
>Be detained rather than shot on sight
>Be put in minimum security
>Escape
>Don't be unfairly trialed and then executed at Nuremberg because vagina
>Live long and healthy life on vagina money
I think you meant "though for a Fraulein"

I don't know, man. It's the soviets, they used to be mad drunk rapists.

One thing left uncovered so far is how easy it would be as a woman to do some very ‘typical’ spy work. It’s not always fancy shooting and safe cracking. A lot of uncredited spies are men and women who simply laid low, got a job at a military base or repository as a secretary and simply stole information whilst working entirely normally.

Getting these sorts of jobs in wartime is especially easy for women because there wasn’t quite enough men, the jobs were typically female anyways, and plenty of ‘well respected and researched’ studies showed that it was a very good improving factor to workplace efficiency to have an eye candy secretary or worker.

She could very easily walk in there, fully allowed to as if she was simply working, and snap photos of what was needed. Granted this involves going through an interview but background checks hardly found criminal records if anything back then.

Another thing she can use if she plays smart/doesn’t mind abusing expectations is to pretend to be weak and break, crying, and either using the eventual comfort attempts to escape, or set up entirely false information.

Fuck the Siberian wilderness.

>What is it Red Army soldier, you want to have me? For anal sex? Very well then - though the equipment stayed behind in my office, but perhaps I can do with that baton of yours.

>"Men are by nature merely indifferent to one another; but women are by nature enemies." - Arthur Schopenhauer ...

Honestly OP I've found representing "era accurate prejudice" to be counter productive in tabletop games. It breeds resentment even when it shouldn't. Also keeping a double standard means more work for you to remember which NPC should react to who.

I know games shouldn't be hug boxes. You'll be surprised how easy people can take this story of shit personally. The group you rationally attached to characters and become equally irrationally defensive.

>quoting a good philosopher but only on his outdated stereotypical views of women
Pathetic.

Citing historical events is not an excuse for unrealistic fluff or setting conventions.

>Citing historical events is not an excuse for unrealistic fluff or setting conventions.
Yeah cause I totally play RPG only to create boring ass normal characters that don't do anything special or memorable.

There's no such thing as outdated

Good. Matter's settled then.

Don't play women in a historical setting if you want to do stuff.

I'd say it's fairly reasonable for sexism to be much less pronounced in the context of occult practitioners than in the general society.

I mean, if you've found someone who seems able to produce a supernatural effect, are you really going to let her being a woman keep you from using her talents?

no you burn her at the stake like a civilized person

t. has only ever been exposed to women through porn

Good slap on the ass

That's not how you use "t.".

The "glass ceiling" is made of women, now more than ever since they're 90% of HR.

Why do babies shake?

Autism.

I know this is old but are you fucking high?
The Soviets were notorious rapists.

This, fucking modern normies acti like feminity and strenght are anathema when aristocrats used to hunt fox and boar riding in corsets and high heels for fun. Or all the rich women ruling the fashion and design industries in the 30's-80's.

Strenght, violence and competency don't remove feminity, being a poor employee does.

You've never worked under two or more women with similar levels of authority.

Women say women hate women, men just repeat it.

Every time I've lived with a woman the menstrual cycle has been pretty fucking noticeable either because they won't shut up about it or because they leave blood all over the bathroom

This, it's why I hate the CURRENT YEAR argument.

>tfw hate nazi's but their girls were pretty

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

This bitch was crazy though

but still pretty

This. Also their intimate hygiene products stink.
You can't share a bathroom with a woman and not notice one way or another.

Hunting was not common among females in the past

The babies are very happy. that is why they shake. They dance in their pants.

That's not it, but you do illistrate this point perfectly.

Your terror and revulsion at the very idea that mensuration is a thing that humans do is acutely really useful to show that this is still a thing today.

They can't mention that they need to use a bathroom, or what they might be doing in there. It's a 'powder room'. The inane euphemisms that endlessly obfuscate the meaning of conversation is annoying, and a woman that wants to use her sexually and charms on guards has to do so without crossing any extreme lines of property.

Questions like "why do you have bandages in your handbag?" require delicate euphemisms like 'feminine troubles'.

Stop being retarded, he's not referring to someone saying "Hey, going to take a shit, lol, bye" but being embarrassed of just insinuating you would be using the bathroom for it's most basic of functions.
Also, there's this one thing about bodily functions, everyone has it, stop being such a fucking prude about it.

>mfw I'm a woman
>mfw I play guys in historical settings exactly for this reason
>mfw the other player keep forgetting which gender I'm playing
Is just a no-win sittuation this one.

When did everyone become an Amateur sociologist? I remember a time a few years ago when a GM would have addressed this just by having guys be chads and slap ops character on the ass and tell them to make coffee every once in a while.

Just because crazy people made gender a big deal doesn't mean everyone else has to. Like we have people legit discussing the mechanical detriments of menstrual cramps. This is that -4 str shit turned up to 11.

>Your terror and revulsion at the very idea that mensuration is a thing that humans do is acutely really useful to show that this is still a thing today.
You mean comparable to the revulsion some feel when mentioning watery shits or picking your nose which are things everyone has to deal with at some point? How droll, that some people are revolted by unhygienic shit and tend to use euphemisms if they feel the need to mention this (sometimes literal) shit at all. Just because bleeding out of your cunt is a female only thing doesn't mean thinking it's unhygienic automatically makes you a sexist.

Well said

Being good at useful or interesting stuff is not common among females in any era.

(you)

It's not common to be good at interesting stuff among males either. But at least they're expendable.

Raising children is a important role

No need to point the gender in the comment then, except to start some /pol/style debate about gender.
do you really need to shit this thread even more?

You're literally here to get triggered, aren't you?

Sanitary pads were developed from the same materials as bandages thanks to a surplus after ww1. So a woman can get away with carrying bandages around.

>some feel
Exactly, most people don't care

You're the one being antagonistic in an "examples of WW2 era sexism" thread.

And you jump to defend shitposting as long as it agrees with your worldviews?

That wasn't to discuss or help OP, that was to star shit and you know it.
I'm just sick of every thread devolving into this.

I dare you to talk about your eggy farts in good company. Go ahead and tell me most people don't care. Bonus points if it's during dinner.

Or as better idea don't play with retards like you

Maybe stop blowjobing bait and drinking the trolls' warm sperm?

Adding yourself to the comment conga line doesn't help either