/tgesg/ - Weekend Elder Scrolls General

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Almalexia is no longer connected to the heart. Sotha Sil really is dead, he had no desire to preserve himself (too Anuic) but his memories are uploaded elsewhere.
Vivec's the only one available for additional work.

Altmer since they still work, live, and marry among the lesser races without giving up their pretensions.

Sorry to hear that, friend-o. I'd say the best way to enjoy that stuff again is to remember the best weird lore is presented as normal or is hidden among genre normal and cliches because then it stands out.

Intentionally trying to be as weird as possible falls flat because you don't have that same sense of scale to compare it to.

Probably not. They're man more than elf, and even if their world view is somewhat meric, it isn't so much so that they come off as actually elves, at least from what I've seen.

How badass is Nerevar.

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The voice equals your soul. It is your breath, your SOUL conceptualized.
When Ysmir was shouted to dust by the Greybeards and he went to Hjalti, the storm around his crown was the voice of Ysmir, the natural form of his soul without body. All nords with willpower/voice/breath/soul strong enough have the power to exist without their body for a while in this form of wind and voice and essence.
It is their original form, that Kyne breathed at the throat of the world. Free spirits of wind and cold. Eventually, they will all return to that boundless freedom, to that form of pure sound and expression, held back by NOTHING

Well remember, its mentioned that the Nords initially attacked Bretons assuming that they were mer.

And Pelinial played fast and loose with what he considered worth killing, I believe he attacked the Khajit as well.

That is a fair point and yeah he did go off on the Kahjiit for awhile thinking they were mer.

That said some subspecies are said to look realitively Merish too.

Kahjiit are of Mer stock.

They might be of Mer stock, but Pelinial didn't know that, just figured that they seemed like Mer.

I think Pelinial would probably go off killing Bretons until enough cried out like Men to make him pause.

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>filename
it lies
IT LIES

It is. You should see the shit people are doing

it still isn't vanilla it is with some kind of enb, shaders or other graphical name I don't know.
Original does not look like this.

So as for today, I want to talk about Argonia/Black Marsh.

Is there anything we know about different regions of it? How it varies from place to place, culturally or geographically?

We know almost nothing about the inner regions of Black Marsh. It's an isolated, disease ridden cesspool, and it's not even properly mapped out. What we do know of it is from The Argonian Account but that is just "realistic fiction" in universe.

Damn, I was hoping that there was some info so that players could explore.

Is this the case? Do I need to do this before every TES RPG?

There's actually a fair bit of info on Lilmoth.

>not knowing the actual source of that picture

Well you can't just tease me with the actual source like that!

There's cool worm-pipes that act like a travel system around the swamp.
Honestly just read the Argonian Account, and everything by Waughin Jarth.
en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account

Watch me.

I think it was just alcohol and Hinduism, but I could be wrong

Now the question is, would Bethesda leave that in the game like Skyrim's carts?

You are a cruel user, user.

Hopefully. But given their track record of leaving interesting stuff out, I wouldn't be surprised if it was removed in favor or boats and carriages.

>worms? haha, what do you think this is, stranger?! this is argonia! not the horror story your aunt told you about some cursed black marsh. Worms! In Argonia! As if.

Don't make me sad, user.

Is it weird that my lvl 31 wood elf scout is wearing the complete armor of the Crusader in Oblivion.

Your armor wants to kill you.

I made a Nord specifically to do this DLC, and then I saw Dunmer and Bosmer amongst Knights of the Nine. I guess with Pelinal the principles also died.

Yes, but just uh...just forget about it.

Work with that stuff in tabletop.

Who was right in Tribunal vs Nerevar conflict?
Was pissing off Azura worth it? Was Tribunal's rule golden years for Dunmer, or did it stunt their natural progress? Was Nerevar's choice to be faithful to Azura honorable or cowardly?

Nerevar in the long term and moral sense, Tribunal in the aspirations for greatness.

The Tribunal probably unified Morrowind more than Nerevar could have, but they really glossed over the issues that still existed.

I don't really like c0da saying Vivec did nothing wrong.

O-oh

S-S-S-Stop it!

Don't remind me of those jungles!

Would stealing the idea of kalpas to use in your own setting be considered dishonest?

It's from Hindu belief, so not particularly.

Not at all!

TES was never super original, just a fun spin on common fantasy ideas. In that regard, a lot of settings can be like that, but they're all special and fun.

I just like having fun with this stuff.

Not at all. The idea is in Hinduism, and you see a lot of related ideas in other religious and mythologies. "Stealing" is good, as long as you make something fun or interesting out of it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Suns

Who is the Guts of Tamriel?

Slow weekend. I've been gone for 6 months. Has there been any developments in lore that I may have missed? Or has /tgesg/ not changed at all since I've been gone? I saw in the last thread there was a lore friendly telvanni dust adept mod for Skyrim. That's pretty cool!

Nothing so far for new canon lore, if you missed 6 months, you missed some good worldbuilding discussion!

Welcome back!

I heard that Meridia hates all forms of 'false life'. Is there any forms of un-life that isn't undead? What else in lore would be considered 'false-life'? Forsworn Briarhearts? Ash-Vampires?

Maybe Dagoth Ur from certain perspectives.

You haven't missed much (unless you're willing to read though ESO stuff). Most of what I've seen is as mentioned and just primarily world building and more in-depth discussions of existing topics. We really do need some new content.

The sad part is that no new content is really coming without a new game.

I can imagine next year maybe they will announce Elder Scrolls VI

desu, I was expecting an announcement at 2017 VGA, but we didn't get one. I'm kind of happy. The longer they take the better.

We wouldn't have anything at all if it weren't for the games. As much as I love the weird shit we get the in-game books, I'm still glad to get the games with new content to explore.

What or whom am I looking at here?

skyrim they announced a long time in advance didn't they? at least a couple years
but Fallout 4 they announced fairly close to the release I remember

I remember seeing the first Skyrim announcement and seeing 11/11/11, and thinking it wasn't too far away. But that was a while ago.

you're right, it was announced maybe a year in advance? not too long, maybe it just felt like a long time to me because I was so hyped.
Todd announced it on December 11th so maybe they might announce something this month, I doubt it though

See, that's what makes me sad.

I like the books, I like playing the games.

I just wish there was a happy medium.

Which is what tabletop is for! How does your tabletop adventures go, anons?

Forever LFG IRL. None of my tabletop friends are into TES enough to make it anything more than D&D in Tamriel.

See, I like to cheat, I slip in concepts here and there and try to ease them into it.

CHIM? Just say that someone gets to briefly "rewrite part of the plane' or something.

It's not even that. They just all see TES the way I see Just Cause. That is, a big sandbox to fuck around in. Introducing anything but a major character or plot line would confuse them.

That's okay, the issue isn't it being a sandbox, the issue is making them like the world. The best part of TES is exploration.

In that view, I'd say make TES inspired worlds and get them used to it.

Dragon Priest concept art

Dragon Priests seem way more fun conceptually than they ended up being.

Any bits about them from expanded lore anyone knows about?

>That said some subspecies are said to look realitively Merish too.
Didn't it use to be lore that there were two subtypes of Khajiit, one that looked like humanoid cats (the one that became standard) and one that just looked like animu catgirls pretty much?

I'm sure I read something like that back in the day in the Daggerfall era.

There's more than just two types of Khajiit.

There are at least 16 different sub-types of Khajiit iirc, ranging from identical to housecats to identical to Bosmer.

Huh, shows what I know.

>ranging from identical to housecats to identical to Bosmer
But doesn't that imply they actually are Mer?

The Khajiit religion believes that they were originally elves that could not control their shape, so the goddess Azurah tied their form to the phases of the moons.

So in other words then,
>going off on the Khajiit for awhile thinking they were mer
makes perfect sense.

Nerevar. The Tribunal kinda pissed on the Velothi religion by making it more about themselves and pushing the Psijic Endeavor aside. Vivec's sermons, while teaching about the Psijic Endeavor, added an extra layer of confusion to an already hard-to-grasp concept by filling it with egotistical stories, tales of his sex life, and having it switch from bullshit to allegory to apology letter to Nerevar.

Not only that but reading the Sermons required the ability to read and Morrowind has a huge illiteracy problem the Tribunal failed to fix. Ashlanders followed Velothi teachings and the Psijic Endeavor and used verbal tradition to teach. Ashlanders remained so small a populace thanks to the Tribunal and House Elves that the chance of anyone achieving CHIM was reduced greatly. Meanwhile in Tribunal society the only person who achieved it was Vivec who had the help of Molag Bal, Lorkhan Heart powers, and worldly travels.

So in terms of the Psijic Endeavor, the Tribunal is one of the worst things to happen to Morrowind's people and they actively fucked up Lorkhan's plans. Only Vivec and his husband in c0da profited in a spiritual way in the end.

Would daughters be worth more than sons to royal families in Tamriel due to racial phylogeny? If a Breton noble family and a Nordic noble family married, the family of the daughter would likely be able to claim more direct relations with her child, as they would be of the same race.

It's alright, there's some details about them in Pocket Guide to the Empire, last I checked.

I don't think we've ever talked about Elsewyr in detail in these threads.

>I don't think we've ever talked about Elsewyr in detail in these threads.
We have, but it was a while ago. Maybe a year or two since I've seen a real in-depth discussion.

We definitely have, though it's been a little while.

Huh, can't remember for the life of me.

Do we know anything about how the Khajiit build structures?

Not to my knowledge. I would assume adobe structures for most of the desert regions. For the more tropical areas I'd guess grass/straw huts or small wood buildings. For larger cities I could see large stone structures being common place.

What we've talked about in the past is mostly the conflict history, it's unification internally, and the Mane. Some of the more out-there lore has been discussed too, but not in much detail.

I'm wondering if there are any roving clans within Elsewyr or if their tendency to move outside of the province influences what they build within the province.

>Torval is the city-state of Elsweyr's spiritual and temporal ruler, the Mane. He and his tribe live here in stately and exotic palaces built from massive timbers of Valenwood oak, whose territorial borders are only a few hundred miles away.

>Riverhold was visible a bit east, sprung up at the convergence of three dusty-looking roads. The walls were saffron, irregular, and not particularly high. Behind them, domes and towers of faded azure and cream, vermilion and chocolate, gold and jet, crowded together like a gaggle of overdressed courtiers waiting in the foyer of the throne room. It was a city that seemed at once tired and exuberant.

Elsweyr is pretty varied, from what little we know. Might be other descriptions I can't recall right now, I'm mostly into Khajiiti culture, history, mythology and all that, not so much architecture.

>roving clans within Elsweyr
Yes, most markedly in Anequina.

>Today S'rathra is suave and urbane, a rich and powerful Khajiit in a world of Men-far from the young suthay-raht that used to run with the violent nomad cats of the Ne-Quin'al plains. After being lamed at the massacre of Stoop Low, he left Anaquina to keep from bringing shame to his tribe, eventually ending up in the far more cosmopolitan Pellitine to the south.

Thanks for the info!

I like architecture because I imagine it reflects their history, the Valenwood oak is a fun detail when the Khajiit have canonically beat the Bosmer in straight up conflict.

You could also check up on how the two pocket guides describe Senchal.

1st Edition:
>This infamous city is the largest port in southern Tamriel. ... [A] motley assortment of bazaars, taverns, merchant quarters, and open-air markets ringed on three sides by its crowded harbors. Senchal is a favorite stopping point for pirates and sea captains seeking to ply illegal or blackmarket goods ... Thieves abound here, as do beggars and pathetic khajiit sugar junkies. The traveler is advised to steer clear of Black Keirgo, Senchal's most squalid and dangerous quarter, when visiting the city. Illicit sugar-dens line the streets here, where beastmen and nobility alike wither away in sucrose fevers. All in all, Senchal is the ugliest city outside of Imperial jurisdiction.

3rd Edition:
>The harbor city of Senchal, long considered one of the most dangerous slums in Tamriel, has had a remarkable renaissance, from principle port of the drug trade, to coastal resort for wealthy, powerful Khajiit. That glimmer of good news belies the fact that the moonsugar trade in Elsweyr has increased multifold in the last twenty years. Ya'Tirrje, the Gold Cat, is rumored to even have a luxurious villa in Senchal, and helps pay for the abundant security that keeps the city safe and crime-free, all the while continuing his drug-smuggling business in Torval, Corinthe, and Rimmen.

Had to cut down the first one a bit for space, go give it a read. And keep the bias of the guide in mind.

>bias of the guide

You don't say.

Thanks for the sources. What about Khajiit history grabs you?

Game set entirely in Senchal when?

never, i hope.
last thing i want is more retcons about interesting things

>bethesda releases tes vi teaser on the exact 6th year anniversary of skyrim teaser
too perfect to be true, but at the same time so obvious bethesda would do it

In a way it has to do with the difficulty of it all.
Sources about the Khajiit are generally written by non-Khajiit, and are often contradictory or hard to reconcile. I'm convinced that a lot of this has to do with the different IRL authors just having different visions of it all. Though in-universe you can explain it all away as unreliable narrators.

In more concrete terms, I'm interested in the interplay between history and belief in Elsweyr, as well as the fact that their internal political history is pretty unique and interesting. Aside from squabbles with the Bosmer, it's generally pretty isolated.
Like, there's stories about how Elsweyr was split up into different parts whose power was determined by the moon phase, an obvious connection to Khajiiti religion. Was that reality, or is it more of a foundation legend? Where the fuck does the Mane come from?

I'm having a bit of trouble formulating this, it's been some months since I last was active around here.

Never. We all know that doing Elsweyr would be too hard for Bethesda.

Here's more stuff that can makes Senchal interesting:
While not as heavily influenced by the Akaviri as Rimmen, Akaviri Potentate Versidue Shaie resided in his palace in Senchal when he was murdered by the Morag Tong.
Rajhin, a deified Khajiiti thief, is said to have been born in Black Keirgo.
The city was sacked by the Imperial Legion during Tiber Septim's rule, in what was pretty much a massacre.

Now, well over a year ago I started making a more systematic representation of Khajiiti mythology. I never finished it, and I know I got some stuff wrong, but I can't for the life of me remember which parts were wrong or where exactly I left off.
But these two charts should help to give a bit of insight into the whole thing. The only thing not outright addressed by this is the dro-m'Athra stuff.

The problem (or at least the biggest problem) is that our most comprehensive source (Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi) of all this doesn't address anything related to the Mane or Riddle'Thar, just the fundamentals of their belief. Maybe it was outside the scope of her teachings, or perhaps she didn't subscribe to the notion of the Riddle'Thar, since the latter is a concept that's been introduced into Khajiiti religion sometime in the Second Era by Mane Rid-Thar-ri'Datta. Therefore we sort of lack a very concrete link between Khajiiti faith as presented by Ahnissi and what we think it looks like as presented by Rid-Thar-ri'Datta.
This image sort of unifies the two.

I'll answer questions about Khajiiti mythology in case anyone has questions, but it's been a while since I worked on any of this.

>Never. We all know that doing Elsweyr would be too hard for Bethesda.
But... but... If Khajiit has game, I have coin ;_;

How do the Khajiit mesh with the usual Imperial religions? Especially in the light of Shaie sticking around there for a time?

In general terms, Elsweyr is a culturally isolated province.
Khajiiti religion and culture seems fairly alien and hard to comprehend for most other races, and the larges changes to culture seem to mostly have originated from inside Elsweyr. There's probably a presence of the Imperial Cult, but it isn't ever mentioned.

Now, the Khajiiti pantheon is different from the standardised Imperial faith of the Eight/Nine Divines, but it shares many of the same building blocks. According to the first edition of the Pocket Guide, it used to be common to just see Khajiiti faith as heathen, but after gathering information the Empire seems to have figured out the similarities.

Specifically, the first litter of Ahnurr and Fadomai can be identified with Akatosh, Kynareth, Magnus, Mara and Stendarr, so the Imperials just sort of concluded that Khajiiti religion is some very distorted version of the same general faith as them. The Imperials also seem to have identified the second litter with the Daedra, which gets us into dro-m'Athra territory, which is a disputed topic.
Generally, the Imperial idea seems to be "I don't know what they're all about, but I guess they have some of the same gods as us."

As for Akaviri influence, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot. Rimmen has a huge Akaviri temple which supposedly holds ten thousand statues, but there's no mention of continued veneration. The Khajiiti also don't really have dragon motifs, they just view Alkosh/Akatosh as a big cat.

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