So are these guys actually Space Nazis or is that just a meme? They only seem like Nazis from a distance but when you research anything about actual National Socialism it doesn't seem like the Space Marines are even close, they're just fanatical.
Is any fantasy race actually like Nazi's or is it just always from a hollywood perspective?
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It's not even transparent bait anymore.
what am I baiting? people say these guys are space nazis. they literally do not act like nazis at all unless you watch some retarded hollywood movie on them. the only way they act like nazis is that they are trying to secure the existence of humanity but that's about it
>people
literally who?
YOU. I've seen threads of people calling them space nazis.
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wtf I love Nazis now!
The state that the Space Marines serve is called the Imperium of Man. It is the entire Imperium, not just the Space Marines, who are typically referred to as "Space Nazis" (sometimes "Catholic Space Nazis").
The Imperium resembles Nazi Germany in a fair few respects. It also has some similarities to Soviet Russia and to the Holy Roman Empire.
What, in particular, do you feel is characteristic of Nazism that is absent in the Imperium of Man?
The meme was true, then after all this time, the imperium has drift from them, now they're more like the 100%"good guy".
There is obviously a considerable amount of inspiration from Nazi germany on display in the Empire of Man, especially when you look at the commissar uniforms, the skulls on hats and whatnot. It all relates to the somewhat morbid fascination of aesthetics of evil that Nazi Germany had going for them, plus them being probably the most iconic "bad guys" in human history.
That said, as far as I can tell it never goes beyond superficial aesthetics, the actual function and organization or ideology behind the Empire has barely anything to do with them.
The nazis were the good guys though
It has nothing about the positive aspects of society within them. It just acts like it is this killing fanatical machine.
>skulls on the uniforms
That came from Hollywood, actual national socialist uniforms didn't have skulls
By my values and ethics, there were no positive aspects of Nazism.
Fuck off back to /pol/.
What.
I love how even he looks shocked at that nonsense.
en.wikipedia.org
Read this. The idea is that Space Marines are Ubermensch created through arcane-science/magic by the God-Emperor, who are scattered throughout the Imperium, the empire of Mankind, and exist to cleanse aliens, mutants and anything 'impure'. The parallels are there.
That said, 40K is a pastiche setting, made up various ideas, so it's not really promoting fascism (despite what idiots would say). Hell, it's biggest inspiration is clearly Frank Herbert's Dune, which is Middle Eastern culture in space (the Padishah Emperor Shaddam IV, Hawat, Bashar, Harq-al-Ada, etc).
It's suppose to show that, in a very nietzsche sense, to fight monsters, humanity had to become monsters (to FTL travel through hell, create mutant navigators, to win wars, create brutal superhuman warriors, etc).
>everything was a negative shit storm there
Dude do you just think good and evil is just black and white in the world? Like anything labeled as 'bad guy' means every aspect of their society was bad? Fuck off back to your mom's basement loser
Nazi's mean an awful lot of things to alot of people.
The modern idea of Ubermensch obsessed world domination tryhards isn't so far off from the Imperium but krauts in the 1932 election didn't go in thinking they were voting for Space Marines, no.
>That came from Hollywood,
... literally read a history book.
This is Veeky Forums. This is the place for discussing fun games like 40k, D&D and Magic the Gathering.
The place for you to try and convince people Nazi Germany had redeeming features is /pol/.
Fuck off back to /pol/.
>skulls on the uniforms
>That came from Hollywood,
Are you a retard? Fucking Prussians had skulls on their uniforms for christ sakes. The skulls were a tradition that went back a good while.
>That came from Hollywood, actual national socialist uniforms didn't have skulls
They did.
Next time, don't bite the bait to begin with. That helps a lot more.
You don't need to be a /pol/ack to recognize that thinking that Nazi Germany was pure evil and had no redeeming features is an incredibly naive and childlike view of history. They were a nation no worse or better than any other nation that has existed throughout time.
>Is any fantasy race actually like Nazi's or is it just always from a hollywood perspective?
SOUNDS IN-TER-REST-TING. TELL ME MORE.
thank you. holy shit I'm not even a nazi. I'm just saying that there are some good aspects of any society no matter how fucked up it can get. that is literally how life is.
But unless those benefits are intrinsic of being a nazi, you can brush them under a general 'human'. I mean I like sex. I assume Nazis had sex so they had something good. But since you don't need to be a nazi to have sex, you don't get to chalk that one up as a "nazi positive".
no I don't mean basic human values, I mean any system of government has positives and negatives. if it's nothing but negative for literally everyone then it collapses on itself. that other user is right, you do have a childlike view of the world.
I'm an entirely different poster, but you'd have to list these benefits that you only get from being a Nazi to me then.
Anyone know the artist of this? This is the style of marine and art that got me into the hobby.
read up on it, there a ton of programs put in place that people enjoyed in germany back then, their economy was flourishing, their science was literally ahead of all other countries. despite what happened during the war later and the fact they exiled certain people, they were doing well and if you read excerpts from people who lived during it they mentioned people were genuinely very happy back then
Paul Dainton.
Thank you!
>and if you read excerpts from people who lived during it they mentioned people were genuinely very happy back then
... except for the ones being taken to the concentration camps...?
>their science was literally ahead of all other countries
You mean the science that totally rejected anything that wasn't 'hard' science? The same science that actually fell behind the rest of the world because they rejected ideas like relativity, quantum physics, and even a lot of physical science that was considered basic fact in other nations at the time? That science?
Nazi super-science is a meme. They were basically autists that rejected any kind of scientific conjecture that wasn't 100% visible and tangible, and that's why a huge amount of their scientists fucked off to other nations. Ya know, aside from trying to kill a lot of them for having the wrong shape of nose.
that happened during the war and there is an argument that while concentration camps existed, the death camps didn't. also concentration camps weren't uncommon back then. US had them, russia had them, a lot of countries did.
I don't think you ever read anything about ww2 aside from your high school class
Space Marines are mostly inspired by monastic knightly orders.
There was more to it. Under Hitler, Germany's economy started to kick serious ass after being fucked to hell post-WWI. There's a reason a lot of people thought he had the right idea for a while.
Fascism doesn't usually work for very long, but it when it does work, it can be pretty effective.
There are some parallels. The übermensch thing's already been brought up. However, there are also some differences. Like SM and the Imperium in general being a lot more religious than Nazis. Honestly, I'd say they bear more resemblance to the Templars than the Nazis: Great religious quest to purge the unclean and unfaithful from the holy land promised to them by their god, etc.
>There was more to it. Under Hitler, Germany's economy started to kick serious ass after being fucked to hell post-WWI. There's a reason a lot of people thought he had the right idea for a while.
It was powered mostly by loans and entirely geared towards preparing for war.
>The same science that actually fell behind the rest of the world because they rejected ideas like relativity, quantum physics, and even a lot of physical science that was considered basic fact in other nations at the time? That science?
You're retarded and literally don't know anything about what happened back then. They were ahead in every way, look at how their military completely annihilated everything at the start. Also they only fell behind after they lost.
You don't know shit about history, stop posting
Please, do tell me why germany had no working nuclear weapon by the time of their surrender when they had basically every nuclear physicist in the world. Tell me that.
This thread exactly shows why people hate 40k players. They are the only board game where it is okay to talk about "The good aspects of nazism"
>It was powered mostly by loans
Dude you are fucking stupid. They got out of the international banking system, which was why they were able to flourish. They created a form of government loan which works very different from a traditional loan. Also, it wasn't entirely geared towards preparing for war, that sounds like something someone who watches tarantino films all day would say.
>flourishing
No it wasn't
Technically, we're discussing the good aspects of fascism.
Which is something students of government and politics have to do a lot of. I did some of it in my history class.
So because they didn't have nukes they were considered completely behind? A lot of modern weapons used in war were invented in germany back then. Your whole argument is going to come down to them not having nukes invented while they were literally fighting almost all of europe and america? seriously?
Gee maybe because they'd been fighting wars on multiple fronts? The USA was the only country that had the economic base to manage a project of that scale
Peopel call them nazis in a colloquial use of the word. /thread
Oi! Who are you callin a monster hoomy skum?
>They were ahead in every way, look at how their military completely annihilated everything at the start.
France had arguably better tanks(Germans didn't even have radios in their tanks at the start of the war) and lost because they were badly prepared for the war and their strategy and tactics were terrible. Poland was gangbanged by two emerging super powers, and Soviets were just catching up with the west in industrialization.
Yes it was. That's an objective fact regardless of your hatred for them. Why do you think he got into power? They just got out of one of the worst depressions in history and ended up becoming a super power in a decade.
Nazi germany fucked their economy up with indebtment, did close to nothing actually positive, and sent their country in a war of pillage that was made inevitable by the massive debt that I mentioned earlier. Not that they could have found the money to pay back their debts, just that they now needed the war since their "flourishing" economy would have collapsed like shit in no less than a few years since they had invested everything in the army to begin with and could not in a thousand years repay their debt. But hey, at least they had employment, right?
Of course had it not been for us writing off their debts by the end of the war germans would have payed the price of Hitler's inane domestic policies.
>They were ahead in every way, look at how their military completely annihilated everything at the start
the poles actually caused fairly heavy casualties to the germans, despite losing
their primary tanks at the time, the pz38, panzer I,m and panzer II, were leagues behind their enemies, succeeding due to tactics and proper deployment
their real tanks, the panzer III and IV, were advanced for their time, but werent mass produced and upgraded until 1942, by which time they had lost a lot of their strategic edge
other "nazi super science" zigzagged between pretty advanced, like the V1 and V2, to advanced but not reliable, like the panther, and plainly inferior, such as their casting facilities and their radios, which had an inferior AM radio and no man-portable FM radio for infantry until the mid war period
Not if they like shit anime like that.
>this entire post
You've never read anything about Germany back then or done any research into this. I've never read anything so wrong in a long while. They weren't even part of the international banking system during that time you colossal retard.
Playing devils advocate here, why shouldn't it be ok? The world isn't a comic book where there are goodies and baddies. Saying it's not okay to objective discuss Nazi Germany seems as asinine as saying it's not okay to discuss the positive aspects of Genghis Khans Mongol Horde.
/pol/ and the sjws could you kindly either stop talking politics or fuck right off? Everything is getting way too political and I just want to paint models and shitpost.
because mommy told him to never question what you're told and so now his identity of being a good guy is being threatened
There are places to bring your politics. 40K threads is not one of them.
There's quite a lot of parallels, and it was at least originally intentional- the original Rogue Trader was inspired by a lot of 2000 AD's stuff, which contained Judge Dredd (just look at the Arbites) . Dredd in itself was a parody/parallel of Nazi fascism and 40k followed in suite.
At one point I'd have said that it was totally a tongue-in-cheek jab at how shitty and miserable things have gotten in 40k, but GW themselves seem to have gotten confused/completely forgotten this aspect of the setting.
But no, 40k isn't trying to actively promote nazis- at worst GW is just really incompetent at keeping it's own thematic shit straight.
>Dredd in itself was a parody/parallel of Nazi fascism
Um... it was the brits taking the mick at the direction America was going...
Commissars dont look like that anymore though.
>not part of the international banking system
OK.
Germany didn't have any fucking money. Germany didn't produce any fucking money thanks to Hitler's policies, because Hitler's policies produced no fucking money since he instead spent massive amounts of money to build autobahns. What happens when one spends massive amounts of money which he does not actually have, retard? Economic disaster. And what's the difference between economy, and war economy? You guessed right. Adios
Imperial guard =/= space marines. Different aspects of humanity, og user was asking for space marines.
America developed concentration camps and put the Japanese in them for fear of domestic spies. Surely not all of American society is evil now?
Actually, Germany has a bread and butter economy for a large portion of the war. It wasn't until the latter half, arguably when it was to late, that Germany switched to a full war economy like America and Britain had. The reason why America pushed in was because we could outproduce them.
Also have to remember a lot of their cities were being bombed so their industry centers were spread out, allowing for survival from bombing but a drop in productivity.
America was able to have centralized industries close to each other and allow for rather effective production because of a major lack of homeland attacks.
Tell me why Germany had jet fighters, one of the first night capable planes, U-boats that wrecked for awhile and required revamp of naval doctrine of allied nations, and the missiles it had point towards Britain when no other country had that.
It's hard to put money towards a project when you're beginning to lose a two-sided war.
America was able to build off of German missile tech and pour money into the Manhattan project.
>Surely not all of American society is evil now?
That depends... are you going to argue it was an applaudable act?
They created their own form of currency that did not rely on international banking. It took time but other countries began to trade with them and then it was seen was a legitimate currency but one that could not be controlled by foreign influence. They had money, do you even know how money works? It's a number and has value because an entity states it has value. You don't even know how the foundation of economics works. You're the one who needs to adios.
It matters not upon my intentions, which for the record are against the concentration camps, but on yours.
If the claim that a single aspect colors an entirety of a nation/culture good or evil then how many nations are good? Are not all cultures bad now?
You're right, but visually they were alluding to Nazis and fascism.
youtube.com
The black, the eagles, it's fairly apparent.
And my exact time code didn't work.
Skip ahead to 3:17 and they'll talk about the Nazi elements incorporated into his design. Obviously it's more than "Dredd=Nazi commentary", but it's there, just as in 40k.
Its also heavily based on Roman symbolism
Yeah, the eagle is a fairly ubiquitous symbol, I'm painting with broad strokes.
A more concrete example would be 40k borrowing heavily from Starship Trooper's imagery, particularly in the early IG designs. The book was written by a guy with a hardon for a military state, and Veerhoven's adaptation poked and prodded at the fascist parallels so much that mouthbreathers assumed he was endorsing it.
Hell it seemed like Veerhoven thought Heinlein was endorsing it.
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The IMPERIUM are Nazis. The Space Marines less so.
Don't say nazi or /pol/ and /leftypol/ will start using this thread for their eternal pissing contest
/pol/ is for politics, got it?
Its of Prussian origin you dumb fuck.
While I agree about the dangers of /pol/ and /leftypol/ , there's no escaping the reality that 40k, the Imperium in particular, is absolutely charged with elements taken from real world fascist politics for fantastical purposes. You can't really talk about the Imperium without courting the topic.
No.
The Imperium is a Galactic Theocratic Oligarchy with (mostly) feudalistic structures on planetary basis, but that differs from planet to planet, nearly everything is possible.
The Space Marines are, atleast today, mostly based on Militant Monk Orders / Crusaders, thats one of the reason, why they are all male and don't have children or wifes. (We have the Counterpart with our beloved Nuns with Guns)
The Imperial Guard has some Regiments / Designs that are clear inspired by the German Armys of WW1 and WW2. It also has one based on the Prussian Army. And one the American Army in Vietnam. And one that are basicly Celts/Scotsman. And one that are Mongols. Hell, if I remember correctly, there is one very old illustration of one, with samurai armor.
To put it simple, while calling the Imperium "Catholic Space Nazis" because it gives the people who are new to the setting a general idea - fanatical, highly militaristic, opressive etc. it is, if you look actually into it not that accurate. I see 1d4chan mostly the same way, good to get a first impression if you are new, funny if you are into it, but take it with a grain of salt.
Veerhoven outright said that he didn't bother reading the book.