I feel into a black hole of youtube vids regarding the Reserved List. Everyone seems to be openly against it, and wants it abolished. I am beginning to think this is a vocal minority...in all of their ramblings about how evil this list is,what I have yet to hear is a solid argument for *why* it should be done away with.
What benefit would scrapping the Reserved List even have?
Legacy would be playable again.
Also the current bloated card values would likely plummet as there's no guarantee that your expensive cardboard will be worth jack the moment wizards gets bored.
Makes the game cheaper for players. It's not going away because the people who actually have money want it around.
Scrapping the reserved list NOW would be a huge fucking mistake. Or, rather, would create much more problems then it would solve.
The reserve list was a response to the backlash and increasingly volatile nature of the secondary market in response to the whole Chronicles debacle. Whether this was warranted or not can be discussed elsewhere, the fact is that it happened, and it did what they wanted it to do: calm the tits of the secondary market (long time players, collectors, vendors and lgs that saw keeping and trading in singles as a big part of the experience of the game). It told them "Hey, we get it. This is a big deal for you, and we want you to know we understand you. This is our commitment to being sure that our reprint strategies in the future will take you into account."
This is a completely opposite strategy to what, say, YuGiOh or Pokemon do, games which routinely see cards that used to be big sellers reprinted in tins and special edition boxes by the hundreds of thousands saturating the market.
I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but these are games which have cultivated themselves as prioritizing Selling to Players, rather than selling for Players and Collectors.
cont
I think that doing away with the reserve list completely would be harmful to the game. Revamping that list would be a much better option:
Keep everything on the reserve list from before Chronicles. First off, that's ancient history and just about everything on there worth playing in a real sense is either banned or restricted already anyway. Then adjust the list starting from the most recent sets, and experiment with adding them to Master sets and the like, putting reprints out into circulation that will see the card becoming more available without completely crashing the market.
The old cards will always have value because they are OLD, much more limited in release and their vintage status(not capitol 'V' Vintage, just being old classics) has meaning. The newer cards will command a fraction of the older cards prices regardless. Yes, the old cards will take a hit in value, but I think an equilibrium could be reached that would balance the collector and the player's stakes reasonably well.
That or wait for the chinese sellers to hit perfect print blue-core KO cards.
I would honestly start with the duals. They're the main reason people despise the reserve list
Because formats like Legacy and Vintage are dying and soon nobody(exclusing commander, and oh what a lovely time we will have) will be interested in playing with those ridiculously overpriced cards anyways, causing their value to drop even with the reserved list.
Oh, in that case, yeah, keep the reserve list ironclad until it destroys itself. How lovely it'll be to see the investment crowd get totally BTFO because they managed to accidentally kill off the entire reason people want to buy the shit in the first place
Shit, you know what, I've done without true duals for so long I actually forgot about them.
But I worry about reprinting them in terms of not screwing up the stability of the game. Like, even if the Moxen or other power 9 weren't on the list, I can't say they'd ever see reprinting at this point in time. But the duals are both such an integral part of most Legacy and Vintage play AND a huge bedrock of the reserve list that I seriously think that would cause quite possibly the most damage to everything in one fell swoop.
Damage to whom? Not to the people who actually want to play the game.
>I have yet to hear is a solid argument for *why* it should be done away with.
To be able to consolidate formats. Having a format the requires a 2000$ deck is a burden.
The biggest hurdle for Legacy and Vintage decks is always it's super high price entry.
In Vintage that price barrier is mainly in the Power 9 and the various Restricted cards, most of them printed in Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited.
But for Legacy the biggest price point are the dual lands and usually some number of Wastelands. If you remove the cost of the lands from the Legacy decks the price drops down to around the same as a Modern deck; still expensive, but not nearly as high as some decks (fringe decks like Lands notwithstanding).
I never understood why Magic fostered such an expensive secondary market. It's not like the money goes to WotC. Why would they tie power to rarity?
It technically does. The stores buy lots of booster boxes, have some for sale, open others to find singles to sell.
WoTC ties power to rarity so people buy more packs.
They've managed to get themselves stuck in a weird doublethink where they simultaneously think that most of their sales come from kitchen table casuals, but at the same time, caring about collectors who own cards older than some of their playerbase is also extremely important to keeping said playerbase happy
I'm very skeptical this actually works.
As far as the reserve list is concerned, it doesn't. Reserved list cards, by their very nature, can NEVER push pack sales
>Why would they tie power to rarity.
Because drafting and similar limited events are huge parts of the game. WotC tries to dramatically limit how much power gets brought to bear in these events in standard, they always have. Yes, the idea of "buy more packs because that's th eonly way you'll get these rares" is part of it of course, because that's how they get money.
I mean, I assumed this was pretty much self explanitory.
The game has an aftermarket because of constructed play, being able to buy and put exactly what cards you need for a deck into it is a whole other format. WotC has a hard time being able to balance Draft power, constructed concerns, the collector's market, etc.
It's not easy to be able to juggle all of that and keep everyone (including thier board of investors) happy with the results.
>Because drafting and similar limited events are huge parts of the game
You could release the powerful cards in premade decks or collector's editions or something though, a la YuGiOh
Anyone who says that reprinting duals or moxen would be a huge blow to the price of the originals is either wrong or lying.
Consider the price playable cards that have been around since Alpha, but have been reprinted to retardedness. For instance, Birds of Paradise, Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt. Check the prices of the cheapest copy and then check their Alpha or Beta versions and then tell me how massive reprints blow the price of the actual collectibles. The only people that are against reprints are not players nor collectors, but these new breed of Gordon Gecko wannabe "investors" who need to fucking disappear already.
Of course it doesn't work for the reserved list, but it works for the rest of the secondary market.
> Reserved list cards, by their very nature, can NEVER push pack sales
But that has happened on...four? I think it was four separate occasions.
Money.
The possibility of ZEN fetchlands being in DTK or BFZ presold untold pallets of product to stores who ten were fucked because it didn't happen.
The actual printing of Dual Lands would blow WotC's printers the fuck up, they simply would not be able to print enough of whatever set they're in to cover the demand.
Pretty much everything esle in the RL is crap. The only cards that matter are the Dual Lands and 8 other cards that actually see play in Legacy/Commander: Lion's Eye Diamond, Mox Diamond, Tabernacle, Moat, Null Rod, City of Traitors, Gaea's Cradle and Impulse. Everything else is limited crap, has been replaced by modern cards, or only sees play in tier 4 decks nobody actually likes.
So, which category do moxes, BL and Ancestral Recall fall into? Limited crap, replaced by modern versions or played in tier 4 decks?
Just print snow-covered duals already. It’s not like any lists run 4 of the same dual anyway.
>Obviously talking about Legacy
>HURR DURR MUH BLACK LOTUS
That'd also cause duals to tank in price. Ironically because the only people who'd want to shell out would be actual collectors, and not people who have made EXTREMELY questionable investment choices
"Even if the reserved list was abolished we probably wouldn't ever print these again anyways"
That is really not MaRo's call to make. If his bosses' bosses' at Hasbro give the go ahead, it's getting done.
I mean that's true of all scenarios.
I wasn't actually quoting anyone, but direct hasbro intervention would likely be the ONLY way that they would see reprints outside of like, the prize for winning a giant tournament
The high end stuff, moxes, black lotus, etc, have far exceeded the value they would have even if they were reprinted.
Some of the hard to find mid tier stuff would lower in price.
The sad fact is, without reprints, legacy is going away because as time goes on, it's not worth playing because you can damage a card worth hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Look at the prices for reprints for modern, and you get a better idea of where the reprints would be.
I love legacy and vintage, since I started playing that far back, but putting together a deck isn't viable.
A format stops being fun when you stand to lose thousands of dollars by simply bending the corner of a card
>Why would they tie power to rarity?
So people would buy more packs hoping for good shit to beat their friends with. Why do you think pay-to-win videogames are a thing? Power sells. You just need to be discreet enough about it so you don't scare off the people who arne't paying quite as much, gotta be a grey mass for the whale to exalt himself above.
Making decisions about some of your most valuable intellectual property is something that is always going to require approval from people higher up in the corporate ladder. Even if R&D said "we want to reprint duals", that would need to get approved. But if they said "we are never going back to Kamigawa", I doubt anyone outside that department gives a shit.
In certain cases, MaRo's words men a lot. In the case of the RL, they are essentially meaningless.
—Keeps Vintage from completely dying to mismanagement and a lack of reprints by making sure it only dies to mismanagement
—Makes the best Constructed format (Legacy) accessible again
The downside is that they're breaking their promise, for what it's worth. Were it not for the (likely as not unjustified) fear of lawsuits, there'd be no reason to keep the list intact.
The reserved list ceased to be something that could hold up in court the second hasbro bought WoTC
But they still don't want to spend all that money on legal fees.
Yet
There's a question of how viable any other landbase in the game would be at that point though, right? Especially if they got reprinted anywhere but in Masters sets.
What if, instead of reprinting duels, a new card that can take thier place is printed and has a "cannot use this in the same deck as original" clause?
Something like a land with basic types and "if played from anywhere but the hand, reveal the top card of your deck or it enters play tapped. This card cannot be used in the same deck as *dual land of same types*".
This avoids breaking the reserved list while affecting as little as possible of the metagame, but still prints "duals" to please players.
Nobody would use duals if we had snow or legendary duals.
Legacy decks that run more than one copy of each dual do so to have redundancy in case of Wasteland. Not because they need more than one of each on the field at the same time.
I'm pretty sure Hasbro has a legal department, so I don't really know what fees they would be paying.
>spend all of that money on legal fees
They got lawyers on payroll nigga, one of the best legal teams, second only to juggernauts like Disney. Hasbro has nothing to fear from a bunch of neckbeards threatening lawsuits over cards losing value. The only reason they have yet to tear down the reserve list is because there is not yet a financial incentive to do so vs just letting Wizards do its own shit.
Or they could just reprint fucking duals.
Actually, it would be worth them tearing the RL down just to see Hasbro's lawyers run a train on anyone stupid enough to take them to court over "muh duals"
That'd be good, but i'd prefer that they keep the reserved list until the point where legacy dies and all the RL cards abruptly tank in value
From an outsider perspective it would be.
Nah, just abolish it and print pokemon TCG style blister packs with a few modern packs and a Nu-Dual or some shit with an insert mentioning that the dual land is for "you and your friends ti play advanced game modes beyond the scope of standard"
I think we are past that point for cards like Lotus and such. The minute you put cards in plastic cases, they become collector's items, so they wouldn't tank in value just because they get reprinted. But we are already at a point where duals are getting encased too. If Legacy dies, they all become collector's items, so they might dip in value, but they would keep climbing forever.
So, no $20 Undergrounds for anyone, ever. Unless they are reprinted. Or the chinaman gets to a point where they create virtually identical fakes.
What would an insider think, pray tell?
They'd probably consider the show of force excessive to instigate themselves. The news story of "Hasbro tanks card prices then throws around legal weight to avoid possible consequences" is one they'd probably like to avoid regardless of how in the right they are.
OP here. Thank you to everyone who responded, and thanks double for not turning this thread into a huge flame war.
I feel there is a lot of cognitive dissonance going on.....it seems like a lot of people want cards to be reprinted so they become "affordable" but then the overwhelming response is that the original cards won't drop in value because they are collector's items.
How is Legacy *not* a playable format? It's literally my favorite official format (Tribal and Tiny Leaders being my other faves) mainly because I think Modern is garbage and standard is WAY too expensive. I run Burn, D&T, Stax, and Land Sac Tendrils/Doomsday decks just fine and I don't use dual lands in any of them btw.
Reprinting Dual Lands is probably the absolute worst outcome to abolishing the reserve list, next to reprinting the Power Nine. If everyone had 4x each Dual Land why would you even bother running more than a few basics in each deck?
I honestly hope that they never reprint any of the cards you listed. I am so sick of seeing turn 1 Mox Diamonds, and I'm glad that I only encounter a player with a Tabernacle once in a blue moon. If anything, I think the reserved list should be expanded to include cards like Rishadan Port, Wasteland, and Dark Ritual/Lightning Bolt just so I don't see them that often.
Richard Garfield himself created Magic as a draft format; something to be played in between RPG sessions at conventions. Limiting the number of times the card appears when you crack packs would keep the power level in check because you don't get as many broken cards as you would average ones. He honestly believed that nobody in their right mind would be silly enough to just buy packs until they got as many of each rare card as they wanted. Math genius, but fails at finance and economics.
OP again - previous post was too long.
see IMO dual lands should NEVER be reprinted. You honestly want everyone to be running four of every in-color dual land in every deck?
As I stated above, I run four Legacy decks and I didn't pay anywhere near $2k for any of them, and I honestly didn't spend that much to build all of them combined. Perhaps you are referring to Vintage?
>How is Legacy *not* a playable format?
not enough new blood
There's no reason to run four of every in color dual, and even if there was who cares? Why does having all of the duals available create an issue?
What legacy decks do you own? It's surely nothing in blue.
>IMO dual lands should NEVER be reprinted. You honestly want everyone to be running four of every in-color dual land in every deck?
...yes? I'd like people to be able to run the cards they want and not have 'It cost an arm and a leg' as the reason they had to use another card. As not reprinting them doesn't create a gameplay restriction on the players, it creatures a massive minimum buy in.
I just told you in my previous post Naw, I'm not big fan of Blue DESU. Maybe to splash but not as a Solid color. I mean I do have a High Tide deck but it is not much fun to play.
So you are saying, that if Dual lands were reprinted and the price dropped drastically, you *wouldn't* pick any of them up?
What the fuck are you talking about?
Almost no Legacy or Vintage deck runs full playsets of duals.
Or do you think we are talking about reprinting duals in Standard? Because that is a retarded idea and I've never heard anyone seriously suggesting that?
>Standard is too expensive, but Legacy is fine.
>I play Legacy and think that everybody would run full playsets of duals if they could.
>Cards should not be reprinted because I don't like playing against them.
>The RL should be expanded to include cards I don't like playing against.
>I play Legacy burn. I hate Lightning Bolt.
>Richard Garfield intended MtG to be draft.
I apologize. I didn't realize you were mentally handicapped. Carry on.
Wasteland is not reserved
It does a lot. Take iconic masters for example, the average value packs have counting rares and mythics only is bigger than the MSRP, not counting Mishra's or similar. Now if you're a player, opening only one booster is likely not paying you off. But if you open boxes and boxes of them, on average, you'll get profits out of them. And they will get money because players hate boosters, they just want to get the cards they like.
>Hasbro tanks card prices then throws around legal weight to avoid possible consequences
Why? literally only investors would care and investors don't make money for wotc
Where the fuck do you think do third parties get their singles from? They buy displays at wholesale prices and crack them open. Hell, some of the shadier ones might even resort to weighing, mapping and other techniques to only open boosters with a bigger hit chance and sell the blanks to whoever is stupid enough to buy loose boosters.
>Tank card prices
there is little to no support to the idea that reprints tank the price of cards. Best case scenario, they go down when there is a reprint, and then they start climbing back again.
Cmon op I was almost taking you seriously
Honestly, I don't give a shit if they never reprint duals or the power 9, but there's so much fun EDH jank on the reserved list that not even collectors would care about dropping
Just keep any items that have a £25+ common market price on the list
ITT poorfags.
The reserve list is here to stay. Get over it.
Rudy has videos of him opening dozens of IMA boxes. Investors give them more money than players ever could.
No fucking shit retard, I specifically said no one would run full playsets.
Of course you'd pick them up but there's no reason to play full playsets. Look at Vinage decks that are already in the $10k rangr, they clearly give no fucks about cost, and yet they STILL don't run 4 of every in-color dual.
Because you know someone would sue over it and people love underdogs, even when they're in the wrong, and especially when it's some nobody standing up to "corporate bigwigs". Hasbro would be inventing a news story for them to be the villains in.
Burn in hell EDHfag
I know it isn't. It was a mistake to reprint it (especially as a rare). I feel it should be added to the reserved list.
what part of my post did you think was a joke?
>but there's so much fun EDH jank on the reserved list that not even collectors would care about dropping
Such as? I don't play much EDH....what EDH jank is on the reserved list?
I feel that is the main issue why throwing out the Reserved List is a bad idea. One one hand, people argue that the list needs to be discarded out of altruism and fairness, but they are secretly fueled by greed to acquire those cards themselves.
It's like nobody wants to come out and just say that they want everything reprinted just so they can have it. Greed Monsters!
You proposed bolt and ritual of all things get added to the list. Not even people who are in favor of RL take you seriously, OP.
Wow, baited by a troll. How didn't you fit more outrageous shit in one post is beyond me.
Whatever.
You do realize you are a fucking idiot, even if you are baiting for (you)s?