Wargame has premeasuring allowed at any time

What about games where you can premeasure up to a certain distance (zone of control, sensors, etc.)?

You can premeasure in Infinity though, you're just limited to the eight inches around a figure.

Premeasuring in x-wing would be pretty retarded. Everything moves on fixed paths and uses fixed firing angles that are open information. You should be able to judge if something is going to be relevant based on your movement just by eyeball.

>What is a rangefinder scope?
>What are tactical overlays?
>What are laser targeting systems?

Seriously though, in an even remotely modern or sci-fy game pre-measuring actually makes more sense.

Not passing judgement either way, we didn't allow pre-measuring when I played 40k with my friends back in 4th and 5th, but that's because the rules said no pre-measuring, pretty sure we definitely would have done it if it was allowed

user if you can't basically premeasure the table by just eyeballing it you need to go play more wargames instead of whining on this norwiegan ice fishing trawler appreciation forum.

I actually would appreciate more information about ice-fishing trawlers.

I knew there was a reason I had a strong desire to wear rubber boots, a toque, and talk about the merits of herring vs. cod

Premeasuring improves any game.
There are no downsides.

>Giving a distinct and measurable(hah) advantage to carpenters
>No problem with this

slower play, ranged attacks become much more powerful.

It's something that needs to be designed with it in mind. Warmachine suffered heavily in the latest edition because they didn't make nuanced design decisions

is that so?
i thought you had to have a reason (i'm going to hack/sensor/ARO an unseen model/check if a teddy explodes on me) to measure the zone of control of any given mini (and thus commit an order/ARO to get to measure)
I dunno about the others, but is kind of hard to win a game and be completely out of range in infinity
generally, the objectives are near the center of the table (which is itself 4 x 4 feets) and you are supposed to set reaction pieces on overwatch as well as infiltrated units and mines to prevent the opponent from just having a field trip during the game

>slower play
I've found the opposite. Players spend less time trying to judge distances, and just measure it, declare intent, and move the models.

>Ranged attacks become more powerful
Do they? For the most part, you an eyeball ranges accurately enough to kite your opponent regardless of premeasuring pretty easily, premeasuring just makes there less arguments about ranges.

I'm not sure if premeasuring killed mk3. The game just felt really bland, but it was getting that way towards the end of mk2 too.

I'm fine with sci-to games having pre-measuring as long as it's handled well.

Fantasy games, though? No. I feel like it just doesn't fit as well for some reason.

Of course the easiest solution is to stop being/playing with power-gaming assholes.

>your ability to eyeball distances, which has nothing to do with your tactical decision making, factors into the tactical decision making game
Next thread.

>the merits of herring
There aren't any. Lurk more, faggot.

>What game doesn't allow premeasuring at this point?

Good ones.

Since it lets you shut down movenent creep I'm fine with it.

Premeasuring gives you an very consistent ability to kite. eye balling creates more chance for mistakes.

Premeasuring and ranged attacks need some kind of a balancing factor. Either the melee is super blitzy, the guns super short, or speed and threat is unreliably swingy that makes the guns risky.

mk3 got hurt with gunline because threats became more predictable. Hence why you felt the blandness of the game. Everything is very predictable.

As an Infinity player, where premeasuring is forbidden, I see no problem with premeasuring. I don't think it speeds the game that much, people will learn how to eyeball distances after a while anyway and will just stop premeasuring on their own most of the time.

>premeausuring
>randomised ranges
IV TRVE VNDERSTANDERS

>Having to account for risk and potential gambles going wrong
>No skill involved

Pick one.

Especially in 40 "deepstriking never scatters and auras are life"k. If players had to eyeball deepstrikes to keep out of 9" and risked mishaps or reaction fire/charges if they land too close, it would add a lot of nuance to the game alone. Not to mention setting up assaults, infiltration, trying to get off key melta/rapid fire, etc.

You really need to play a game that bans premeasuring to get why it adds to most systems.

Lack of premeasuring is a dinosuar in games. It's a silly 'skill' that is easily worked around. By providing perfect information for what the board sees (you can hide other info elsewhere if that's part of the game's design, such as hidden cards, etc), then you increase the value of good decisionmaking, instead of accidental 'oops I was too far' nonsense.

Remember back when IG Mortars had you guess the exact ranges, and if you knew how to guess real well they were unstoppable killmachines for their price? Peppridge farm remembers. And it was fun but dumb.

You're wrong and you should feel bad for being wrong.

I premeaure constantly in X-wing, because if I don't, I end up crashing into my opponent. I love using manuevers and flips, while he usually moves in tight 1s.

>measuring ranges for anything outside of shotguns, bows, flamethrower, or grenade tosses

Gross

It adds the skill test of having good eye measure.

It adds about as much as a variant of chess where the King is a jenga tower that could fall over at any minute, leading to a loss.

I want the pre-measuring meme to die

Meanwhile the rest of us play the actual rules, don't premeasure, and still get the manoeuvres right.

Remember Novacannons? At one point I literally used trigonometry with the position of the lamp in the room and my arms shadow to get almost exact lengths.

No, absolutely no problem.

t. carpenter

>Be little shit that starts playing WHFB fifteen years ago
>Take exactly three games to figure out how to get exact guess ranges by using known factors like unit dimensions, setup areas, terrain size, movement ranges, table size, regular weapon ranges, the information the opponent gives me and a tiny bit of basic feel for space
>Never make a mistake again
Wow, it's like it never fucking matters unless you are a mongoloid.

Fuck off Eratosthenes

>I premeaure constantly in X-wing
This might be the dumbest thing I've read all day, and I spent a good hour today reading accounts from druggies who believe that their hallucinations give them concrete knowledge about how the jews control the world.

The only reason to ever not allow pre-measuring is if you are hoping player error will make up for poor game design.

fite me.

It's irrelevant that it involves skill if the skill is unrelated to tactics. If I'm better than anyone else in my store at punching people, I shouldn't be allowed to win by knocking the other player.

>it never matters but I don't want to get rid of it

this

Well, looking at WMH mk3 you're not entirely wrong.

>The only reason to ever not allow pre-measuring is if you are hoping player error will make up for poor game design.

I disagree. Equating no pre-measuring with a poor game design is also kind of a sticky situation since there are too many assumptions. I am of the belief that the mark of a strong player is the ability to take advantage of mistakes that their opponents have made.

For example, I created a science fiction wargame where pre-measuring is not allowed - UNLESS you buy rangefinders for your units. Essentially, the more equipment you bought, the more of certain rules you could ignore (i.e. antigrav supports on heavy weapons would bypass movement penalties). It created certain cool situations where you were a more technologically advanced force, albeit numerically inferior, but you could take advantage of a lack of certainty on your opponent's side.

that just encourages one to cheat with out of game abilities and equipment.

>that just encourages one to cheat with out of game abilities and equipment.

Not necessarily, especially since you have to pay for them. Points are typically a decent balancing factor, especially when you go over army lists with your opponent. Although, that's something I recommend for any game.
Tournaments also check army lists beforehand to ensure legality.

People who are going to cheat will find a way to cheat no matter what, I can't even put a number on how many times I've heard of people going over in points for 40k, WMH, or Infinity

This is stupid. All you are doing is nerfing the armies of players who don't have good sight and aren't good at measuring without using the tape. It's worse than just going "yes, actually, I think being able to precisely measure distances is an interesting skill to test!".

Why not just add juggling balls to the game that you don't need to juggle if your tanks have a gravy-stabilizer? There, another mistake your enemy could capitalize on!

user, if you are using mechanics that can be entirely replaced with eyeballing ability, you have effectively made a game that allows instantaneous, no-will-required cheating.

>All you are doing is nerfing the armies of players who don't have good sight and aren't good at measuring without using the tape. It's worse than just going "yes, actually, I think being able to precisely measure distances is an interesting skill to test!".

If it's a problem for you, then you buy the equipment. Every single army has access to rangefinders, antigrav supports - it's a science fiction wargame.
Or save the points on rangefinders and put them towards additional heavy weapons, force shields, etc.

>user, if you are using mechanics that can be entirely replaced with eyeballing ability, you have effectively made a game that allows instantaneous, no-will-required cheating.

Okay, can I figure out what I am doing wrong here? The game does not have premeasuring standard. However, you can buy out of your point allotment a rangefinder that allows you to measure range.
This is no different than buying a jet pack that allows your models to move differently than they normally could.
You are reducing your points to give you an ability, although granted it is a powerful one. I'm not really seeing how it's cheating, especially if you're spending your points allotment on granting your units the ability to do so.

*The rangefinder allows you to measure range before you fire, and that's the only time you can do so, once per turn, per unit

I should have explained that better

>Okay, can I figure out what I am doing wrong here?
It's fairly simple: if you're good enough, you don't need to premeasure anyway, so the upgrade is pointless. At some point people simply start eyeballing common ranges, premeasurement or no. It is different from using a jetpack in that one affects the model and rules that apply to it and the other the player and his ability to measure or not. And the "advantage" stops being one once player develops good range assessment skill.

>It's fairly simple: if you're good enough, you don't need to premeasure anyway, so the upgrade is pointless. At some point people simply start eyeballing common ranges, premeasurement or no. It is different from using a jetpack in that one affects the model and rules that apply to it and the other the player and his ability to measure or not. And the "advantage" stops being one once player develops good range assessment skill.

This, I'm fine with - it's a good, constructive critique of the option and one that makes me reconsider its role as possibly helping with spotters or something else. At least you would agree that it's not cheating, though.

Cheating in "it's a rule that's easy to bypass". You can't build your balance on player ability.
Frankly that rangefinder ability should be just a stat or a range upgrade or a simple bonus to dice outcome.

>Cheating in "it's a rule that's easy to bypass". You can't build your balance on player ability.
That's a fair point, although I still wouldn't call it cheating.
>Frankly that rangefinder ability should be just a stat or a range upgrade or a simple bonus to dice outcome.
Word, I will probably end up rolling it into a "targeter" upgrade. Thanks for the tips!

It's closer to ivory tower design in that it's an ability that's little more than wasted points for an experienced player and one which breeds bad habits in beginners. Compare, for example, to a fighting game that allows you the option to have easier combos at the expense of less damage output or something similar. It's not gonna do anything other than teaching new players a bad way to play the game that inhibits their progress.