How to make a 3-way war between humans, elves and orcs?

If he can't think of a reason why three often antagonistic groups would be at war (at least orcs vs. the other two) then he probably shouldn't GM. And before you say "but what if his generic species are different," my answer is: then he should fucking explain in what way they're different so we can take it into consideration for our suggestions, but since he doesn't specify anything one almost has to assume that he's talking about the most generic depictions imaginable. In which case he again shouldn't fucking need our suggestions because he knows those generic depictions and their pet peeves as well as anyone else here.

Just swap the cult of storms for orcs.

Or maybe you just have a very large stick up your ass.

Or maybe ur dumm ever think about that huh, since we're being all openly insulting and shit, apparently.

Cool beans. Very helpful and sage.

SO anyway here's some advice: Don't necessarily worry about them as races, look for motivations that any group of people might get pulled into a conflict for. Is your story about people? Make it a political conflict about accession to a particular political title like Emperor. Is your story about things? Make it about a resource or region that is hotly contested between the borders of each. Is it not actually about the war? Then you can do whatever reinforces verisimilitude. As said, not everything has to subvert tropes, but it helps to think a bit deeper about them. Good verisimilitude would be something like Orcs burned down the Elves forest kingdom (fairly tropey), but now what about the elves? Their displacement might have them causing disruption in the lands they resettle, causing unrest or even a civil war in Human lands while Orcs war on those lands to finish the job. With any good writing exercise, just put down your first thoughts, your immediate assumptions of what should be, and then answer Why. If you can't answer Why, then you should probably challenge those ideas. Hope that helps!

>Elves and humans start fighting for political or economic reasons
>Oi look ladz ders sum gud krumpin goin' on over der
>Orcs join war

not terribly difficult

Make orcs a quasi-nomadic pastoral culture. Little if any planting (maybe they seed crops along their route like some Indians did), instead they follow herds of cattle/buffalo/whatever. This puts them immediately at odds with the agricultural humans who need the land for resource-intensive wheat plantations. The Elves, meanwhile, hate both these guys because they dwell in the forests and the humans' pigs and orcs' goats are both intensely destructive towards the fruit and nut trees the elves venerate/need to survive.

The Elves give the humans repeated warnings to stay away from their forests, but the humans need to expand, especially with the orcs raiding their more lightly defended settlements, slashing and burning the crops that are the humans' greatest weakness. A three-way war breaks out on the plains with the humans trying to clearcut the woods and protect their settlements, the elves raiding the humans' cities to disrupt their leadership and the orcs attacking everyone as opportunity presents.

>Good verisimilitude would be something like Orcs burned down the Elves forest kingdom (fairly tropey)
>fairly tropey
Ya think?

Elves at west, orks at east and humans in the center.
Humans start with the upper hand because they're inherently better than others, but after years of struggle they start to lose. Bonus if humans are losing because some traitors decided to receive bribery from orcs or elves
Put your pcs among the losing human side.

there is a valuable resource near the border of the three domains

Humans -
Strengths: Sheer numbers, cavalry = dominant in open country.
Weaknesses: Big, vulnerable settlements.
Elves -
Strengths: Masters of ambush in forest; able to teleport strike-teams for assassination/sabotage; mage 'artillery'
Weaknesses: Insanely few in number. Your war wizard may be able to blow up a whole human cavalry squadron but you better hope he's not needed elsewhere because there's only like, a dozen dudes like him. Dependent on extremely vulnerable forest.
Orcs -
Strengths: Less numerous than humans, but every adult is a fighter. Nomadic means no settlements to attack. Tough enough to live in virtual starvation and v. resistant to filth/disease, well practiced in guerilla/irregular warfare.
Weaknesses: No cavalry and no wizards means you get trashed in a stand-up fight. You'll have to rely on your native hardiness by using the least-traveled trails and sticking to the most inconvenient terrain for your enemies to not get destroyed. You'll also need to either protect your herds (by keeping them hidden in ravines or caves) or just pretend they're wild and hope the humans don't massacre them to deny you meat.

Planetside 2 style map

See American Civil War, but with slaves and first nations folk replaced by orcs or elves, depending.

>2 races get along until cultural differences manifest such that peace cannot be maintained
>3rd race is involved by virtue of the landscape having originally been theirs or their having been enslaved by one or both of the 2 races above

Depends. Are there any Jews in the setting?

If you can do nothing but sperge, maybe this thread isn't for you.

Human wizard goes to elf and orc kingdoms and call their mamas fat.
Polymorph as orc, go to elf and human kingdoms and tell them they smell like farts.
Lastly, polymorph into an elf, and then just act like normal elf.
There you go.

D E P E N D S
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S E T T I N G

Assuming "standard" humans, elves and orcs there needs to be a point where their interests collide. I guess that if you want to play into the hand of established clichés you could do something like this.
>Generic Western European humans are waging war against evil orc barbarians because they're evil and orcish and WAAAGH
>The orcs are actually advancing pretty deep into human territory, and end up taking over a certain region famous for its lumber
>Desperate to keep their soldiers supplied with bows, crossbows, arrows, bolts and various forms of artillery, the humans begin chopping wood at a forest near the kingdom's border
>An elven forest
>Elves are pissed, humans believe that having a handful of men less on the front is better than having no wood so some human soldiers start incursions into the elven woods
>Elves hate orcs because elves hate orcs
>By the time the orcs advance south far enough to hit the elven woods we'll get a murderdeath threesome of funtimes

tl;dr:
>The orcs want WAAAGH
>The humans want to supply their army
>The elves just want everyone to fuck off

ethnically homogeneous cultures are a natural state of a closed system. heterogeneous one or more formerly closed systems becomes open with respect to another

such cultures arent a trope so much as a scientific observation, a state of genetic equilibrium in which there is sufficient "intermingling" that genetic differences between any two individuals is not great enough to be considered a different race/species/whatever.

>ethnically homogeneous cultures are a natural state of a closed system.
er, note that this is with respect to a specific limiting size. once you exceed this size, there will be racial differences / speciation

Warcraft III.

resource wars mang
Humans breed quickly so they probably need more land to farm to feed their growing populations.

Long living Elves dont need leg room but they probably need something else, magic crystals, magical ore, sacred forests. Maybe something more mundane like food, elves are picky eaters after all.
something that can only be gotten in the now human and Orc infested lands.

Orcs are raiders. They live by pillaging more established settlements. Make them the wild card player. They will prey on whichever side in winning the war at a given time, since that side will have more shit to steal.

>How am I suppose to have these [insert groups here] fight?
>Doesn't take the five seconds to think up a fucking reason
>Doesn't look at the clusterfuck of wars in human history for inspiration

user please.

Warhammer Fantasy plays the trope straight and it's one of the greatest fantasy settings out there.

>large orc horde on its way to elvish lands
>elves manipulate orcs into attacking human lands instead of theirs.
>plan backfires as human refugees start pouring into elf lands
>elves slaughter the ones who dare stray into their domain
>humans attack elves as well
Literally not hard

There are number of ways

But first questiont hat needs to be answered is: how are they organized? Are they actually racially segregated? Are they in in feudal system, in hordes, in republics, city states? Are they geographically separated?

Any number of models is applicable. We could and should look at the historical examples for inspiration

Basic scenario could be humans and elves getting involved in the Orc Horde power struggle. Imagine situation similar to Kiev in the times of younder: a rivaer passage from one sea to another, both of those have elven metropolis. River is the only viable way, and it goes through steppes where the Horde migrates. Humans live on the cities on river, and they are somewhat allied/intermingled with some of the lesser orc tribes, yet generally they have regular hostilities with the Horde as a whole. Elves mainly are interested in passage, and they kind of want to keep it under their control.
Stage set; now scenarios can be written up

Another scenario could be colonization. As in, several colonial efforts that are opposed by natives. Rotate races as you see fit (Wc3 orc campaign would be an example of elves being natives)

Next one would by dynastic struggle. Just a war in a feudal land/country(ies), where different feudal lords command feuds with different races. Something like HRE could be thought up, with Encient Elven empire somewhat fracturing, and dynasty struggle involves now federate human kingdoms/orc mercenaries or raiders and whatnot.
I particularly like the idea of Swiss orcs: hey live in/on/under mountains, form first-class infantry (screw you, , you are wrong and stupid; infantry does not auto-lose to cavalry, nomads always have settlements to attack - they have to set up winter camps) and fight for higher bidder

Elves want to keep their forests for themselves, so kill invading humans and orcs as vermin (think typical Trump supporter, but not as fat and with pointy ears), humans want to chop down the forests for firewood & lumber, orcs want to kill and eat elves and humans because a holy book says so. Sorted.

wtf i love elves now

>Elves at west, orks at east and humans in the center.
Nice try, Hans. The race only capable of destruction, death and genocide (aka the orcs) clearly corresponds with the G*rmans if anything. Also, because said G*rmans wouldn't recognize proper diplomacy if it slapped them in the face with a mallet, the "elves" and Russians were allied decades before the war even started.

>Put your pcs among the losing human side.
You mean Russia before G*rman financed Lenin introduces communism and ruins the world for at least the next century and a half?

In almost any scenario where cavalry has room to withdraw, reform, charge, withdraw, reform, charge, and withdraw, reform and charge again, even a disciplined pike unit will get broken up and fall apart. You consider that humans are likely to have a numerical advantage against orcs + horses and if orcs are stupid enough to fight humans on a flat grasslands this is the almost certain result. Thanks for calling me an idiot though, faggot.

Scenario i like the most is one where elves are Jewish analogue. Their encestral land lost, they live in small communities in various cities, all mutually interconnected by personal relations and culture and trade links and whatnot. Humans and orcs would have separated kingdoms with relatively big population, struggling against each other.
How would elves be able to participate in conflict? let them have strong pirate navy and control of several metropolitan merchant republic cities; that will allow them to have bases and ability to strongly act with somewhat plausible deniability. Throw in magic, especially in the form of strong artefacts from the lost country(ies), and we have a nice adventure on high seas, with two dominant power and third one struggling to keep balance between them to keep itself safe

Cavalry cannot withdraw if it is dead. Cavalry cannot actually outlast infantry in the long term, seeing as humans have more endurance then horses.

Why would humans have numerical advanage over orcs and not he other way around? Why would humans be only ones with cavalry? Why wouldn't be humans be stupid anough to make cavalry attacks on fortified position to break and die on them, huh?

Both the orcs and humans are at war after a group of orcs ended-up in human lands and were slaughtered with the exception of a few survivors who managed to escape. Diplomatic missions failed to gain any traction as the local human ruler refused to administer the justice the orcs wished to see. Elves come into play afterwards as the quickest path between the human and orc lands runs straight through their ancestral forest and elves are none too keen on trespassers, especially when they end-up harming nature.

Is this an okay start?

Stupid and vague. Cavalry can't withdraw? Well that's the whole fucking point of cavalry so if they can't something's gone way the fuck wrong. "Humans have more endurance than horses in the long term." Sure, like, over DAYS. Are you expecting battlefields to cover like 80 square mile areas and your enemies to just not burn your village to the fucking ground while you're doing your gay spartan hustle after them?

"Why would humans have numerical advantage over orcs." Well if you read my whole gay scenario humans are an agricultural society and orcs are pastoral/nomadic. Agriculture means you have food for fantastical more numbers of kids to live to adulthood. Goat-based cultures produce tough dudes but not a lot of them live to adulthood, fact. So if you're an orc commander you have to deal with the fact that A) you're flat outnumbered B) you lack horses meaning flat ground is your enemy if you're gonna give the humans time to get their cavalry together and come after you. Obviously most orcs won't, hence raids.

> Stupid and vague
Right back at you
Can you back your scenario with examples? I will even help - the battle of Carrhae
> that's the whole fucking point of cavalry so if they can't something's gone way the fuck wrong
Is your eyesight alright? Have you missed "if you are dead" part? I was specifically referring to Crecy here
> Are you expecting battlefields to cover like 80 square mile areas
I am expecting wars to last longer then a sinngle-day battle. I am expecting distances to be more then a day's travel distance
You would also do well to educate yourself about strategic defense against deep cavalry raids. Reality shows that infantry or ship-based army can bring cavalry to battle and then win

Care to explain how in your scenario humans end up with better cavalry then orcs? How come nomadic society lacks horses? Goat herders are not nomads

lol you cherry pick like literally one battle (I guess I should congratulate you for not bringing up Aigincourt?) where infantry beat cavalry, and then take it as a given horsemen better shake in their boots. In real life given time and space to charge and charge again, knightly cavalry could fuck up even determined Swiss pike squares like at Marignano.

If you have a dug-in force of archers with powerful bows and favorable terrain, and your enemy is incredibly arrogant and stupid like the 14th-15thC French knights were, then sure, that's cool. That has nothing to do with the scenario I suggested to OP so thanks for trying to read my post.

Thank you oh-so-much for giving an actual example for what you think should be a good example of the combat superiority of cavalry.
If we look at it properly, we can see, that in that battle what deceded it was attack from behind by fresh reinforcements - on the forces that were already exhausted from being on constant offensive for two days, offensive that was repelled by opponent's infantry on fortified positions, artillery - and counter-attacks by cavalry, yes
Not really a good example, i surmise. Your point doesn't shine through
I suggest you use Rokrua as an example, because it indeed have cavalry destorying formation after formation, pausing to reform themselves in the process.

Now then! Main question to your scenario in general is - where do races live, respectively, and how supposedly nomadic orcs lack cavalry compared to humans?To supplement my point, in Napoleonic Wars we have loss of almost all french cavalry (that is, horses) in 1812, then coalition enjoying advantage in cavalry all the way through 1813-15

>Humans commit sacraliege big time against Elves
>Elves go full Jihad
>Orcs opportunistically start raiding both of them and then full loan invasions

Uh... okay first at Marignano the Venetians (I assume this is what you're talking about by "the attack from behind" because otherwise I have NFC) arrived LATE after the battle was already done. Yes the French softened the Swiss up with lots of culverin fire before their cavalry went in. That doesn't change the fact their cavalry was able to pull out of melee like a Catholic on prom night and charge over and over again, against pike and halberd troops who were supposed to be the best in the world.

Also just read my fucking posts dude. I posited a scenario where orcs are pastoralists without access to lots of horses because, generally, in fantasy, orcs don't ride horses. They are also typically armed with two-handed axes, falchions and javelins not pikes and halberds. So in trying to give OP some ideas for his campaign I ran from the default. Then you came in like "OH YEAH WHERE DO YOU GET OFF ASSUMING CAVALRY ALWAYS BEATS INFANTRY"

The same way you do any other 3-way between humans, elves and orcs - elf in the middle.

So why are they at war, muh don't like different tribe doesn't work

> generally, in fantasy, orcs don't ride horses
In the same fantasy they generally enjoy numerical advantage over humans, if not also better industry as well. Mreover, in fantasy they have boar or wolves cavalry instead of horse one.
So, your view seem inconsistent from outside. So, i do not grasp what do you take for a given in your scenario or what you are basin that off

Back to the topic, i reiterate my suggestion of (forest-riverlands) habitat for humans, steppes for orcs and open sea - islands for elves. That'd allow for somewhat meaningful interaction between them around a water artery (based on the Kiev period of Russian history)

ez. humans attack elves trying to get moar resources to fight orcs. Bonus points if humans attack elves and then pretend like the elves should be grateful for their extermination/enslavement. Just like real life! Yay history of europe!