/swg/ Star Wars General

it's an object moving at relativistic speeds so sure, why not

NU-lore, yes.

EU-lore, no.

Nearly every ship in the entire galaxy came standard with tech that prevented that exact scenario from happening as early as KOTOR, so long, long, long before the GCW.

I do think a bit of the backlash is because the movie wasn't the one anons had built in their heads more than the movie itself being bad, if they weren't going in ready to despise anything 'Mouse Wars' from the get go. The fact it does have some glaring weaknesses gives people already in a negative frame of mind something to latch onto and get really fanatical about.

Not in the old lore but now it apparently is. It's probably a huge war crime so that's why they didn't do it before.

Sure.

Assuming she hits the ship before entering hyperspace, rather than having entered.
At that point its just a very massive thing going relativistic.
Which is perfectly plausible.

Used to be that shields stopped that from being a thing.
So i mean, you couldnt hyperspace kamikaze a TIE fighter if you were really fucking insane.

Logically speaking, very few battles in Star Wars take place in random deep space. They're always fighting around something of value, which makes sense of course. Considering the scale of the damage when she did the ram, you could devastate multiple planets with EASE. So yeah, SUPER War Crime.

Also, I thought the only thing that stopped you from ramming things with hyperspace in the old canon was a safety shutoff if the sensors detect strong gravity. Surely it's not difficult to shut such a thing off?

>a huge war crime

No one would give a shit if you could literally destroy any ship of any size by sending a tiny fighter into hyperspace after it. The Empire and Rebellion should've been fielding nothing but AI-piloted speed vessels to hyperspace into each other.

NU has completely ruined the concept of naval warfare in Star Wars.

You're assuming size isn't a factor in the destructive potential of a hyperdrive kamikaze.

So you say that the only reason it worked is because she was using a capital ship and anything smaller the ship's shields can take it. It's not like technology in Star Wars isn't pure fantasy bullshit anyway, as long as the logic follows on a basic level (smaller ship = no work, big ship = work!) nobody will care.

Not in the old EU, where if you hit the mass shadow of a realspace object in hyperspace you were toast and it wouldn't even notice. You also couldn't hyperspace into or out of gravity wells
Also ships going to hyperspace *didn't* actually do any accelerating to get there, it was a dimensional shift, not actual FTL travel

>Without insulting each other, what are your thoughts on The Last Jedi?
- The Character Assasination Of Luke Skywalker By The Coward Mouse
- Introduces a literally universe-breaking weapon technology that invalidates any and all past and future fleet engagements AND superweapons as retarded
- Superleia
- Dropped plotlines everywhere

A loosely related thought, but one of my biggest gripes with the EU was efforts by some writers to bring more hard science into a space fantasy franchise.

Very inconsistent as a movie, plots than could be trimed enterily, derivative desings than look worse than the originals (gorilla At-ats or the super star destroyers of the FO), Rey mary suism was explained in a way than couldn't be stupider (she is a counter balance to Kylo, but beats him even when the later has been trained be the two best masters of the force alive?), marvel humor, the porgs didn't bother me tough, the legacy characters misused, Hamill hobo ways was fun but they destroyed Luke characters for me.
Also embarassing memes like Milkies luke or Carrie poppins will haunt this movie forever.
Good points perhaps the visuals were stuning, the music was okay but I really don't remember any piece in particular than it's new, Kylo actor is pretty good tough he is ugly as sin, if it wasn't for the end than goes again retard evil it would have been a stellar perfomance, Fin moments were wasted, specially the last one, Phasma was a meme again without consecuences, Rey wasn't as grating as the first one but still doesn't click to me, Poe it's mixed to me,I don't care for the humor, but the character is endearing, tough his plot was superfluos.
Tl:DR, Mixed as a movie, horrible SW one for me, if it was a parody I would have believed it.

That's not a bad thing to do though.

>she is a counter balance to Kylo, but beats him even when the later has been trained be the two best masters of the force alive?
The movie went out of its way to tell you why she beat him.

A single cruiser destroyed an entire fleet with the most massive ship in the universe already super populated with stupidily hugh ships, any corvetter could destroy entire fleets of ISD, and a space fighter kamikaze rune would beat any capital ship.

>That's not a bad thing to do though.
No, it is, it really is.

It goes hand in hand with turning Star Wars into a purely military sci-fi franchise instead of a fantasy one, which makes it that little bit more generic and ignores the best qualities of the films.

That's an assumption based on nothing.

We've always see ships accelerate and decelerate into/out of hyperspace in the Main Series though.

Star Wars doesn't have to be 100% fantasy though. Nothing is lost by adding science. If anything, it adds to it. Nothing takes you out of immersion faster than an explanation to something being "uhhhhhhhhh space fantasy roll with it".

That's fucking BS. The only thing that they tried to explain is why you can't hyperspace ram a planet. Even the original movies explained why you had to punch in coordinates before you went into hyperspace.

It did? When?

Yes, the movies did the bare minimum. We don't need autistic details that turn the book into an essay on fake science.

Because midiclorians were a great idea. Plenty is lost when you start getting caught up on the science of the thing rather than the romance of it.

When Snoke is giving Kylo Ren shit.

Its like you guys don't pay attention. Same with the 'Luke burned the books' group.

I really love the Star Wars EU and have for more than 20 years, but I have to agree with that guy to a point, especially since a lot of the complaints about the new trilogy and canon is related to perceived "betrayals," of that tradition of harder science and military fiction taking precedence over fantasy elements.

You're right that more reality and rules and focus on the human element over the more airy things can help ground the fantasy and make it better, it certainly did in the Thrawn Trilogy and many other great EU materials. But on the other hand an excess of reality and rules and the human element over the fairy tale can also get you Medichlorians and Schmi Skywalker's death by implied rape.

Maybe the Nucanon is going too far the other way, but I would question strongly if I believe that because I literally grew up on the EU rather than because the EU is the objectively better way to go about things.

Based in how fucking powerful the hyperspace kamikaze atack was, destroying an entire fleet of giga-ships (seriously, the smallest one was several km long here), the Raddus is about 3-4 km long, and apart of destroying a 50km ship, mauled all the other around him. It's very stupid to think than people like the separatist or the rebels wouldn't use that kind of power before, if only you need a space ships with a hyperspace drive. Heck, it makes any owner of a space ship the equivalent of a nuke, after the filmd do you start to wonder why doesn't any isis tier group go wild destroying everything.

It just felt small and largely inconsequential. The only new things we learn are the answers to why Luke fucked off and who Rey's parents are. Barely anything is expanded upon from TFA and very little is set up for 9. And on top of that it really doesn't stand on its own for me.

Also the scale is utterly fucked. I get wanting to make them the underdogs, but having the entire resistance being able to fit on the Falcon while the FO completely conquers the galaxy off screen is pretty stupid.

Er, Snoke just berates him for being pathetic. That's not an explanation you Muppet.

This thread has been taken over by /tv/

When will the normal discussion resume?

It's one of those films than the more you start to think, the more stupid it all seems. Even if the first impression is great because it has some good moments.

? We are answering the Op, no one is insulting anyone and at least they put (half backed some) arguments about why they didn't ir did like the movie.
Unless you are paid be disney I don't see why would you say that honestly.

I don't give two shits about the EU, most of it was hot garbage anyway. The movie was bad because it was a incoherent mess of random scenes, incongruous character development and behavior and grinding, clashing tonal misteps. It's soulless, bloated and poorly written.

Why is it whenever characters in a fantasy/scifi movie do something incredibly desperate and crazy the first question nerds always as is "Well why don't they ALWAYS do that?"

The answer is because it was desperate and crazy, and normally circumstances are not so desperate/crazy as to require it. The Rebel Alliance was never literally 10 blaster shots away from being erased, or maybe they would have rammed Home One right through the Executor and her escort fleet. And the Seperatists were being actively controlled in such a way so as to NOT win the war because, in case we've forgotten, their leader was a Sith Lord apprenticed to the Sith Lord controlling the Republic, and the entire Clone War was a meaningless farce.

>war crime
That's a bad excuse and you know it. The first movie of the series had the bad guys build a planet-destroying superweapon and use it on an inhabited planet, they clearly didn't give a shit. You're telling me the Empire, the First Order, whatever previous assholes and not even some random terrorists never did it? Instead of wasting money on the Death Star they should've just made a huge stockpile of droid-piloted hyperdrive torpedoes, or picked up a bunch of asteroids and built hyperdrives and navigation systems on them. Enough firepower to destroy every inhabited planet in the galaxy several times over, with an uncounterable weapon and much lower budget.

If you look at what the collision does, it looks like the impact zone disintegrates straight into plasma or something, and showers the entire fleet with junk moving at high enough speeds to do the same thing to anything it collides into. You have to be going at relativistic speeds to do that, and that would be extremely painful beyond anything that's reasonable in a sci-fi setting like Star Wars.

...okay, but we were specifically talking about the balance between science fiction and fantasy and hard military fiction vs romantic fantasy in the story structures of Star Wars, so what you just posted was a total non-sequitur. Thanks though?

"War crime" is a terrible excuse. Ever military and their mother would be using that tactic with AI fighters if they could spend 1,000 credits to take down an entire capital ship instantly.

Luke (and the audience at the time) didn't know Rey took the books when he went to burn down the trees. He wanted to destroy them, but chickened out. Yoda did know that Rey had the books, but decided to fuck with Luke instead. The audience doesn't learn what was really going on until the end of the movie.

Also, to be fair, you only see the books in the drawer for a second or two. It's not terribly unreasonable to miss it.

It was painfully forgettable. I'd rather have a garbage fire like The Holiday Special than the forgettable stuff Disney's been putting out

The Death Star's purpose was more than blowing up planets, it was intimidation. Also the Empire didn't fucking want to blow planets up, they wanted to exploit them.

The First Order has less of an excuse, but unless I'm mistaken they ALSO wanted to exploit planets rather than blowing them up. Going on a mindless crusade of blowing up as many planets as possible doesn't actually get you anything, using a Super Weapon as a symbol of fear and absolute destructive power at your whim does.

The Vong were a lot closer to the mindset you're talking about, and they more or less DID destroy planets whenever they came across them, just in a productive way.

Ramming star destroyers into planets just to watch them burn is not a productive enterprise. It doesn't require a huge justification as why it was not done.

>or picked up a bunch of asteroids and built hyperdrives and navigation systems on them

Din't some book or video game actually do something like this? I could have sworn this was a plot point of some significance.

Star Wars was and is deeply rooted in the pulp heritage of Space Opera. Good people getting swept up into big, galaxy-spanning events against powerful evil with strange, often mystical powers at play.

Pulp is founded on telling exciting, crowd-pleasing stories, so familiar archetypes rooted in ancient myth work as excellent shorthand.

The Best of the EU embraces that (the Zahn, Stackpole, Allston trinity along with others) to its benefit.

Even the Prequels, as broken and awkward as they are, work as Space Opera at the basic, gut level where your mind can fill in the blanks of Anakin & Padme's badly-written romance.

In "overturning every cliche" of Space Opera in the name of being modern and clever, The Last Jedi ends up being a smug rejection of everything that made Star Wars work in the first place.

This is also why the grittiness of the Vong turned so many people away. It didn't fit with the themes of high adventure and heroism innate in Space Opera.

But even the Vong didn't feel nearly as insulting, because in the end, we all knew they would be defeated through determination and heroism.

>In "overturning every cliche" of Space Opera in the name of being modern and clever,
I don't feel it did this at all. If anything I felt it re-embraced the genre after JJ's cynical rehash of a New Hope.

I might be completely misremembering and making this up, but didn't they do that during the attack on the Maw Installation? They rigged up some of the asteroid facilities to ram into the attacking ships or something?

What do you guys think of star wars Legion?
Are the rules too simple?
Will it be properly supported?
How popular will it be?

The last jedi was terrible. They completely shit on Luke and his entire character progression over 3 movies.
Worst star wars movie ever.

>It didn't fit with the themes of high adventure and heroism innate in Space Opera.

But many people loved the Vong for that exact reason.

Not everyone sees space opera the same as you do, and not everyone sees your idea of space opera as a good or bad thing, depending on the person.

It's a very vague and intangible genre with so many different ways of execution that many people have different ideas on how it should be, and I don't feel it's fair to lock it down to one specific way of executing a plot and saying everything else beyond that is bad.

If anything the new movies are closer to your definition of space opera than the OT was, and quite a few people hate the new films while loving the old ones.

The idea I'm remembering was using asteroids as artillery, and basically using a fuck huge mass driver to accomplish it. Does that ring any bells?

>the lengths people will go to to defend TLJ

I don't agree that Last Jedi is overturning every cliche or abandoning the core elements of Space Opera at all. It certainly plays with them, it certainly toys with our emotions and expectations a ton (the criminal betrays the heroes for money and gets no comeuppance even after he returns the beloved heirloom struck me as a big one). But the core of the movie is very much the redemption of a broken hero, another hero learning an important lesson about leadership and why he was wrong about things, a third hero learning things he didn't know about the plight of society at large, and the Main Hero and Main Villain going through an emotional clash of personal feelings and ideals. All against the backdrop of a powerful, implacible evil relentlessly chasing our ragtag heroes to the point of exhausting every single resource they have and leaving them on the brink of defeat, only for them to rise up using cleverness, love and hope.

If all of that isn't Space Opera, I don't know what is. Did they "modernize," it? Yes. Did they "Marvel," it up? I might be willing to say they did, and even went too far in doing it. Did they betray everything that made Star Wars, all the goodness of classic pulp fiction? Not on your life.

>Implying Saw Gerrera wouldn't have been all over that shit

>implacible evil
Are you on drugs?

How much do they pay to post this garbage user? You can tell us.

Not enough.

Heroism is actively and repeatedly punished at every turn in this movie.

Every time anyone tries to do anything heroic, they are either slapped down by somebody else, it ends in failure, or it seems to work, only for it not to and a whole bunch of people end up dying anyway.

>Redemption of a broken hero
There was nothing telegraphed in TFA about Luke being broken and out of character in any way. And what redemption is there for him? The movie tells the audience that his heroic legacy is a fraud.

>an important lesson about leadership and why he was wrong about things
Holdo lying to Poe and constantly berating him for wanting to take action while his comrades in arms are dying all around him would only work if Holdo was a FO spy. Poe's mutiny is totally justified thanks to her incompetence.

>Plight of society at large
Finn grew up in literal slavery as a child soldier with a serial number instead of a name, but yeah, don't treat animals badly, or something.

Sorry Rian, I'm not buying it.

If they were paying me I wouldn't tell you to go fuck yourself with a rake.

>Heroism is actively and repeatedly punished at every turn in this movie.

No, Heroism is redefined. Finn trying to be "noble," by running into the superlaser wasn't heroic, especially when you can compare it DIRECTLY to the kamikaze attack that happened just minutes earlier. He was throwing his life away because he was desperate and hopeless, where as Holdo sacrificed herself to keep hope alive. Po's mutiny was stupid, he was basically throwing a tantrum because he was being kept in the loop and personally placated. People in this movie are not punished for being heroic, they're punished for being faux-heroic.

Wait, what? Did she take the books? I missed that, too

They were on the Falcon at the end.

So because Luke's being broken wasn't telegraphed it was bad? Also, his legacy was a fraud? Did you watch this movie? Rey spends the entire time telling him his legacy WASN'T a fraud, he is lying TO HIMSELF with all those "lessons," because he made a huge god damn mistake (giving in to instinct and thinking of killing Kylo) and was punishing himself for it.

I could keep responding to more of your points but like, holy shit, why bother if you're going to be so ignorant of even basic text in the film.

>No, Heroism is redefined.
>they're punished for being faux-heroic.

Ah, good. The mask slips.

This pretty much. I am fucking sure this thread is invaded by a mix of RLM /tv/ fags and spacebattle fuckers at this point.

So, was thinking to make a space opera game based on d6, but before starting the autistic task to port stuff, what are the more glaring faults of the system?

Finn being an indoctrinated child soldier is easily the most glossed over element in these movies. You could tell me he was just a random dude who got shanghaied by the First Order a bit before TFA starts and I'd have no reason to disbelieve you. In fact, it would make significantly more sense all things considered.

It's not like being intentionally obtuse to justify blind hatred of the NuCanon (or "rethinking," of the Prequels) is anything new to this thread. Though there are definitely /tv/ fuckers around, and they're not helping.

The F&D beginner module seems kind of lame. Should I use the AoR one instead?

>stop disliking what i like you *insert buzzword here*

Holdo did nothing wrong and only an inebriated hick who has never had a strategic thought in his life would think otherwise. He was a massive fucking risk, considering the moment he doesn't agree with his superior's plans he just fucking ignores them (IE refusing Leia's order to fall back).

I don't think I've ever seen any media do "child soldier grown up," particularly well. Finn's past works by allowing his ignorance of the world at large, which they've used in both movies to at least make some kind of point (and a better point than I usually see in random/shoehorned Fish Out Of Water subplots)

It's not even out yet

The lady doth protest too much me thinks.

He also only had a couple small snubfighters.
And if he allahu ackbars them, he cant do anything anymore becuase now he has zero ships.

>tfw franchise isn’t over

>Holdo did nothing wrong
Holdo did everything fucking wrong, and her own plan ended up getting more transports destroyed because the First Order realized what she was up to when the transports launched.

Her one redeeming act was to take actual initiative and ram her ship into the Freudian Nightmare instead of waiting for it to run out of gas, which saves the rebels.

Also, what kind of self-respecting admiral doesn't wear a uniform?

>I don't think I've ever seen any media do "child soldier grown up," particularly well.
>tfw Kojima will never be handed a blank check, the Star Wars license, and a command from on high to go absolutely nuts

If he was that much of a risk they should have put him in the brig. Also notice how they didn't say shit to him after the mutiny was over so obviously they didn't care about 90% of the resistance being killed because of it. Poe was retarded for getting the bomber squadron killed but Holdo was fucking worse.

>because the First Order realized what she was up to when the transports launched.

BECAUSE THE FUCKING HACKER GAVE AWAY THEIR POSITION AFTER SHE ABANDONED SHIP, WHICH WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED IF POE JUST FUCKING SAT ON HIS ASS AND DIDN'T SEND FINN ON A WILD GOOSE CHASE.

Psycho mantis wasn't a child soldier. He was a criminal profiler for serial killers.

General Dodonna never wore a uniform. Old man robes all the way.

That’s a weird thing. On one hand, he’s supposed to be indoctrinated yet he acts no different from anybody else. He does defect for killing innocents but he’s perfectly alright with blowing stormtroopers and other FO people in the tower without the slightest attachment to what were former allies.

Fucking see: Did you literally miss the entire reason the hacker got to fucking leave unharmed and payed?

Anyone know a good way to start a beginner campaign that mixes F&D, EotE, and AoR?

MGSV showed that he was a child soldier.

Now that that guy mentioned it though, Raiden and Liquid are both really cool Was Once A Child Soldier characters. Although I shudder to think what Kojima might actually do with the Star Wars universe...

>Implying Saw wouldn't or couldn't just hijack a civilian freighter to do it

Rebels is still going. I wonder if Saw trying to orchestrate space 9/11 is going to be a plot at some point.

It was a uniform and had his rank badge on it.
More than Holdo does.

Which is a shame, because i wanted to like her.

I basically echo this entire post.

It had pacing issues and inconsistencies that prevent it from being great, but the Luke/Rey/Kylo core of the movie is really good, it had cool visuals and used music much better than TFA, and all the performances were rock solid.

A lot of people seem burned that it's not the movie they expected/wanted more than anything.

People that don't watch a lot of movies (most people) tend to be far more distracted by plot holes, and TLJ has a lot of those.

I'm cautiously excited

>people who like thing I don't I like are either paid shills or from another board

And if Tumblr Admiral told Poe Leia's plan he never would have had to send Finn on a "wild goose chase" dumbass. When Leia revealed the plan he agreed it was a good idea. Why should he and his men trust a purple haired bitch that doesn't wear a uniform. For all he knew she could have been a spy giving away their location to Hux

So why didn't she pull him into the hallway and just fucking say "I know you want to do something, but I have a plan, and I need you to sit tight. Leia trusts me. I need you to trust me too."

Then we could've avoided an entirely pointless half hour running around Space Monaco and we could actually feel bad for Holdo when she dies instead of thinking she's a spiteful bitch.

MGSV was a shit show with good gameplay that retconned Psycho Mantis completely

I'm still mad how they killed admiral Ackbar.
He should have been the one to do the suicide run.

>Although I shudder to think what Kojima might actually do with the Star Wars universe
Finn and Poe get a secret handshake.