Evil Campaign: Big Bad Edition

Hey Veeky Forums. Recently had this idea that I thought was great at the time but now I wonder if it’s flawed in some way.
So basically I think that the idea of doing an evil game as normal but the pcs are evil isn’t the right way to come at an evil campaign. Instead I suggest that the players play big bads. I.e. They play evil dragons, beholders, lichs, death knights, devils, demons, ect. The DM then makes a party of adventurers who thwart the players plans (whatever they are). The adventurers ultimately defeat the big bad players (or not) depending on their choices, ect. So you’re essentially playing the game in reverse. You’d probably have to get the players to figure out reasons for their characters to work together or at least have non-aggression pacts.

Thoughts?

Also discuss what big bad you’d like to play I guess.

I think that having the players play as powerful creatures like liches and beholders is a huge mistake, there would really be no progression or stakes at all since they are already at the peak of what they can do. It's not like demons can become higher forms of demons or liches being able to gain more power since they already have immortality. Even if you send adventurers they would have to be max level to pose any kind of threat. Without an end goal or proper challenges the game is gonna crash and burn fast. The main way to make this work is to have the end goal to become the big bad. Have the players start out as shitty goblins/kobold raiders or weak wizards forced together since alone they are no threat to anyone, and have the end goal to become a big bad like a lich or champion of demons. As they cause more trouble, stronger adventurers will create better challenges and in turn gain them more infamy and fame. Having them make deals with higher powers to gain special abilities adds another quicker albeit riskier path to power. Starting at the end gives players nowhere else to go and in turn why should they play if there is nowhere to go?
TLDR: This idea is fucking terrible and you need to rethink this user, also I'd be a giant sentient spider king bard as a big bad.

While I get what you’re saying in regards to a lack of progress/stakes allow me to make counterpoints. In regards to progress I’d have them start on a level that does actually have somewhere up to go. Devils are a good example as they literally work as a hierarchy with promotions through ranks. However linear progress is not the point of the game here. The point would be to accomplish some extremely difficult goal. Say for example the lich character wants to ascend to godhood (perhaps they all want this) and various very specific (and terrible) circumstances need to occur for it to happen. The adventurers get in the way in some minor way at first and slowly become more of a problem with time foiling the lich’s meticulously thought out plans.

As for stakes yeah once again I don’t think this would really be about stakes. Think like playing ‘Dungeon Keeper’ or what have you. Also there’s always more adventurers. So basically the game becomes choose a goal and aim high, complete it to win.

a devil, but I honestly don't know how
they're all supposed to be these moustache twirling 10000 IQ dicks that have been playing a game of chess ever since forever who will carefully plot, moving certain pieces over here, supporting certain cults over there, and impregnating certain females so that one day, after all he has plotted, a bottle of piss falls on top of a cleric as he's giving a speech, ten thousand years after his plotting began, just so he can have a giggle and then eat some souls and fuck a succubus, and I don't know how to play that

unless you play as extremely martial devils I don't see how it's possible, and extremely martial devils would be dumb since you're already big and bad, meaning progression is lost

It would require some damn good players yeah. Probably not very many as well now that I think about it. Would be a strict no more than 4 rule. But yeah you’re describing some stupid/minor/funny goals when you should be giving a major and very difficult goal. So maybe a devil wants to open a portal into heaven for invasion purposes but needs to play a careful game to get it to happen. That’s just off the top of my head.

>devil
>10,000 IQ

I don't think you know how IQ works.

Might as well add my own favourite big bad to play in theory. Would like to play a Beholder. Play the proper Eye Tyrant role, starting off with a mercenary company, then a crime syndicate and then a settlement under my control. Keep playing the long game to eventually put myself in charge of the country behind the scenes purely for the sake of ego (as a beholder should). That sounds fun to me.

I came here to laugh at you, OP

Okay.

Damn, I love beholders.

Have you heard of a wonderful game called Dominions?

Why not just emulate most media where the protagonists are evil and just play as resourceful lieutenants for the bad guys?

Warcraft 2 had you play as Orgrim Doomhammer's cunning officers. Starcraft had you play as a Zerg lieutenant. Warcraft 3 had you be Arthas ascending to power and serving the call of the Lich King entity.

I figure players would be more willing to play as Vader than as Palpatine anyway, because the big bad is usually not a man of action.

You ever heard of Wizardry 4 and 5?

>muh new gear
>muh level progression
back to /v/ kid

I haven’t. Do tell.

That would be treating the game as normal but with evil player characters. D&D is setup for the player characters to basically be good people who are also mercenaries (adventurers). So my thought is that dynamic evil characters work much better in D&D as big bad villains then as regular classed characters.

Also no I haven’t heard of that. What’s that like?

I don't, actually.

>maybe a devil wants to open a portal into heaven for invasion purposes but needs to play a careful game to get it to happen
Yeah, but then you'd be playing a normal game, except your bossman is a big red devil

>Yeah, but then you'd be playing a normal game, except your bossman is a big red devil
Wut? No. You are the devil. Aren’t you getting this?

unless you play as one of the archdevils, your ass belongs to a devil more powerful than you

>there would really be no progression or stakes at all since they are already at the peak of what they can do
That's not necessarily true, depending on the big bad's starting positions at least. Even if you yourself are of incredible power, minions must be recruited, towns and kingdoms subjugated and managed, strongholds built, etc. Of course the game then becomes one based more on politics and resource management and the like, but I think that's the general idea anyway.

>That would be treating the game as normal but with evil player characters
Just to be clear when you say "treating the game as normal" Do you mean that in the sense of general story and progression, or in a more mechanical sense?

First of all you’re assuming I’m using the d&d setting. Second yes and that’s a good starting point. What you think an archdevil is looking over your shoulder at every second of the day? You still have your own ventures and if the player is clever they can replace the archdevil themselves.

I’m not actually certain what the significance of this is.

>Just to be clear when you say "treating the game as normal" Do you mean that in the sense of general story and progression, or in a more mechanical sense?

Both.

>I haven’t. Do tell.
Not the guy you asked, but Dominions is a PC strategy game that offers a giant amount of flexibility to the players and has a ton of mechanical depth at a cost of having really simple graphics. Basically, god dies and a bunch of pretenders (the players) all claim to be taking his place. In order to do that, they must claim the thrones of ascension and crush their enemies. The gods each have their own armies inspired by a real-world culture/mythology.

Personally, I think that the system is too complicated to be used on the tabletop (even though the combat system is basically a giant wargame) but the concept would be really fun. Perhaps make your game some kind of god-ascension game. The pantheon is dead, and their portfolios are up for grabs. The players could be dragons, liches, demons, etc. who want to become gods, but are smart enough to know that they must form a pantheon (just straight out tell them that nobody in the setting is allowed to have ultimate power). Their opponents could be good dragons, angels, extraplanar terrors, Inevitables (assuming you're doing D&D), and other such good powers. There would also be the lesser mortals to sway or fight as need be.

As I said earlier then, it would probably be best to have the players start off by consolidating their resources and have the heroes begin going after them after they show their hand to the wider world.

That campaign plan sounds pretty good. I just wouldn’t want to tie people down to god ascension as the end goal necessarily but that’s certainly now what I’d suggest before anything else. I want the players to get deep into plotting and actively encourage evil-mastermind behaviour.

I suppose I was kinda assuming that. But yes it makes sense for the players to start a fair bit before adventurers come along.

Never played it, but the concept is you could take save games from 1 to 3 and fight your adventurers as the bbeg. People submitted their saves and had their characters added into the base game, too.

Under three conditions.

>1 - The PCs cannot dogpile the Adventurers ten feet into the dungeon.
>2 - You allow THEM to set up the dungeons, using a point buy system to make it structured.
>3 - You play the Adventurers as the most ruthless Murderhobo Munchkins in the universe.

>1 - The PCs cannot dogpile the Adventurers ten feet into the dungeon.
Not sure if I follow you here.
>2 - You allow THEM to set up the dungeons, using a point buy system to make it structured.
Yeah. This would be one of the more fun bits of the game.
>3 - You play the Adventurers as the most ruthless Murderhobo Munchkins in the universe.
Yes. This. I was also imagining they’d the most stereotypical characters ever. So the human fighter, the dwarf cleric, the halfling rogue and the elf wizard. Have any of their dialogue be the most retarded things you’ve ever heard of players saying.

>Not sure if I follow you here.
Don't let them stand ten feet into the dungeon and NOVA the shit outta the Adventurers. The BBEGs have to hang back and do shit while their minions take them on first.

Considering the usual "bad guys vs. worse guys" or "the good guys were evil all along!" evil campaigns are complete and utter shite that miss the point of playing evil characters I'd say you're on the right track.

Oh right. Well yeah that’s just weak. I’d ask why they’d be standing at the front door of their dungeon especially to kill a bunch of level 1 shitheads rather than doing something else more important.

>First of all you’re assuming I’m using the d&d setting.
I assumed since we made the difference between devils and demons that it was FR or something like it. Besides I meant D&D, and your reply was to my answer to a question.
>What you think an archdevil is looking over your shoulder at every second of the day?
No, but your friendly pit fiend is. Or whoever is your direct superior.

The significance is that infernal hierarchy is extremely locked in most settings.
When you're low the only way up is by being a good bitch to your bossman and doing as he says without question or conscience, and when you're high the only way higher up is by doing your own thing. Neither makes for a good campaign.

An Ulgurtasta that fashions his skeletons as a family of gangsters

IMHO, unless you're running only a 2 person game, with 1 GM and 1 player, pretty sure the best way to run an evil campaign is not as the big bad itself, but as the big bad's trusted lieutenants.

You have both constraints and a lot of power, you have strong motivations to work together, you get to have a complex multitude of reasons for why you're doing evil, you can have quite the variety of characters in the same party, and there is of course looming over it all, the potential for betrayal. Either the party members against each other, the party against the BBEG, or the BBEG against the party.

I personally like to use a pseudo version of the setting often. Similar but with differences as I like. I usually keep the blood war because that’s awesome.

I would’ve probably suggested the character starts off as an Ice Devil so that they’re fairly high in the hierarchy but not at the top. Then I’d have the Pit Fiend above like this character and wants him to use his ‘dark creativity’ in the material plane so that the player has necessary freedom.

I actually basically agree. I’d have them be just one or two steps below the BBEG.

I like the idea if it's used as a fungame of mostly rleplaying rather than dungeoncrawling and etc. Maybe add a goal for all players to compete for but the only rule is they CAN'T straight out kill each other with X entity noticing, as if they were competing for second in command position of a BBEG bigger than them.

They have to scheme and wage a cold war from the shadows that can't be traced back to them to claim their position above all the others.

Motherfucking Red Dragon because why the fuck not.

Would probably start small, migrating to an area of interest, possibly a volcano or a mountain where to stablish myself, then going for enslaving the local kobold/goblin village to get a small nuissance with which to assault a few travelers. Once that is done, progress towards actual Human/dwarf/elf/whatever villages Ruin a few buildings with flames to 'make example' of my power. Demand tribute from neighbouring villages and all that classic stuff.

Then I can start my politicking and my shadowplaying with any other powerful overlords or political parties around.