Is there any concensus on how physically strong other classical races are in comparison to humans, and one another?
I mean, if we go by LOTR, whose films (the books kinda only give gave descriptions of the general power of each race, only Uruks and Trolls are said to be mightly strong), appear to have kinda set the done for how each race are portrayed, Dwarves are supposed to be stupidly strong, Elves stupidly fast and acrobatic, but also incredibly strong, and Men somewhere in the way, weak and normal, struggling but kinda getting along and Orcs can vary their power-level depending on where they come from.
The theme kinda repeats itself on D&D, 'xcept elves appear to be on the same level of men, with more intellect and being more magical and shit.
If we go by LoTR, men should be physically stronger than both Elves and Dwarves, as the only (and there are damn few) strength to strength comparisons between the two reaces are inevitably in favor of the heroic man compared to the heroic elf (we have no baseline comparisons). Dwarves and Elves seem to shine in what would be CON in D&D, of which the former got picked up on in later fantasy portrayals, the latter, not so much.
Uruks are confirmed to generally be smaller than humans, so probably weaker, to say nothing of less "Specialized" orcs, who tend to be hobbit sized and weak. Trolls are not really in the spotlight enough to have much of a baseline.
I would argue that the PJ movies reflected fantasy "cultural" notions rather than created them.
Jordan James
I thought Uruks were supposed to be super soldiers? It's been a while since I've read the books/watched the movies but normal orcs must be real shitters if their elites are weaker than men
Sebastian Foster
>Uruks are confirmed to generally be smaller than humans, so probably weaker, to say nothing of less "Specialized" orcs,
I thought Orcs (which includes Goblins, if Tolkien ever really decided if they are one and the same) where generally of varying height and weaker than humans (from the size of hobbits to the size of small humans). While Uruks (bred in Mordor in the Second Age) where a match for men in terms of size and strength.
I know "Uruk-Hai" stands for "Orc-People" in orc Black Speech, and that means both Saruman's Isengard bred Orcs and Sauron's Black Uruks. However Tolkien also goes out of the way to specifically describe some Uruks (in TTT and RoTK) as taller then most men (Shagrat, Ugluk and Mauhur).
This page (lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Uruk-hai) under Etmology says "Uruk-hai" meant the "free" soldier-orcs of Isengard and Mordor, and "snaga" was a term for all other smaller breeds of Orcs and Globins ("snaga" meaning "slave").
I don't know either way. LoTR also mentions Half-Orcs bred with men, but then never mentions them again.
Luis Lee
I like that the PJ movies kinda touches upon that passage in the Silmarillion that may indicate Orcs are inbreed. Azog kinda represented a "pure-breed Orc." Gigantic, intelligent, powerfull and independent, so much that Sauron had to promise him Thorin's head in order to gain an allegiance. The smaller orcs kinda only appear after Gandalf discovers they are being bred/mass produced in Dol-Guldur, which to me means a lot of dark magic powered inbreeding is going on.
Michael Campbell
They are, and they are.
>I thought Orcs (which includes Goblins, if Tolkien ever really decided if they are one and the same) where generally of varying height and weaker than humans (from the size of hobbits to the size of small humans). While Uruks (bred in Mordor in the Second Age) where a match for men in terms of size and strength. Nah, you get passages like the orc-chief in Moria, where a
>But even as they retreated, and before Pippin and Merry had reached the stair outside, a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot, leaped into the chamber;
Or in the Helms deep sortie that Aragorn and Eomer lead to attack the rammers, Gimli is unwilling to fight the dunlendings (They're too tall to effectively fight with), but he'll engage the Uruk-hai that Saruman brings.
>However Tolkien also goes out of the way to specifically describe some Uruks (in TTT and RoTK) as taller then most men (Shagrat, Ugluk and Mauhur). I cannot think of any passage that indicates such for those uruks named. The closest you get is from the very start of TTT, which says
>There were four goblin-soldiers of grater stature, swart, slant eyed, with thick legs and large hands.
And Treebeard speculates that Isengardian orcs might be a blend of orcs and men because of their ability to stand sunlight, but offhand, those are the only passages I can think of that specificially describe Saruman's boys, and neither of them state that they were bigger than the average man.
Lucas Morris
"Ork" is a race.
"Uruk-Hai" is a tribe/people/caste of that race.
Just like Elves with the Quenya and Sindar, men with the Easterlings and Numenorians, Dwarves with Durin's Folk and Non-Durin related dwarves
Angel Morales
> I cannot think of any passage that indicates such for those uruks named
Shagrat appears in RoTK, right after Frodo is stung by Shelob and right before the Orcs in Cirith Ungol start murdering each other over Frodo's loot. He is described as the Captain of Cirith Ungol and Sam says he is almost the size of a troll. I forgot which passage he is mentioned. He is promply killed a paragraph later.
Aaron Clark
tolkien's elves are overpowered as fuck. they can recover from injuries that would have killed a man in a short span of time. that one elf in silmarillion who was imprisoned and starved for many days recovered pretty much instantly after being rescued and drinking something
the biggest and blackest soldier caste orcs in the books (helm's deep, some individuals in mordor iirc) are still shorter than men. they're big in the sense that a german shepherd sized bunny is xbox huge. seriously, if the uruk-hai were actually like they were in the movie they couldn't be stopped
>Sam says he is almost the size of a troll. you can't take this seriously
Nathaniel Hall
>Shagrat appears in RoTK, right after Frodo is stung by Shelob and right before the Orcs in Cirith Ungol start murdering each other over Frodo's loot. He is described as the Captain of Cirith Ungol and Sam says he is almost the size of a troll. Actually, he's introduced in TTT, you can see the name on page 229 of this pdf. old.ahmadtea.ua/userfiles/files/Tolkien/Lord Of The Rings - Part 2 - The Two Towers By J R R Tolkien.pdf
>a large orc with long arms that, as he ran crouching, reached to the ground.
There is absolutely nothing in there comparing him in size to a troll. The first mention of the word "troll" in Book 6 is after the ring is destroyed.
Jayden Gonzalez
to be fair, isn't the silmarillion supposed to be like a folk tales/bible compendium? Of course the stories will get romanticized and exxagerated over time
Eli Rivera
The Silmarillion is supposed to be Bilbo's translation and organization of various elven stories and poems. How accurate those stories are is unclear, while they're very old, you do still have elves that were alive when they were happening, the Galadriels and Glorfindels and other elves of similar age. And of course, Bilbo's own translation and understanding might be flawed.
But really, you can apply the same reasoning to the entirety of everything in LoTR, which is also supposed to be several rounds of translation after a bunch of hobbits wrote some stuff in the Red Book of Westmarch, with all the possibility of inaccuracy that implies.
Juan Jenkins
you could argue that this is relevant to each and every lotr story
Nathan White
My understanding was that elves, dwarves, and men tended to be around the same level though a handful of elves were WAY stronger and after them orc then hobbits
Xavier Ross
Noice
Anthony Reed
You're wrong on point. Dwarves are physically stronger than humans and elves. The source for this is the Dragon Helm, of which no elf was strong enough to bear and only a scant few humans (House of Hador) were mighty enough to wear it. The Dragon Helm was originally crafted for a dwarf's head.
Joseph Fisher
No.
Dominic Martinez
Tolkien speaks more of their hardiness and ability to tolerate discomfort then their pure strength, though Gimli at least must be strong indeed because he along with Boromir plow a hole through the heavy snowdrifts of Caradharas so that the others can pass. Relatively few elves are of the sort that hang around Elrond, the kin of mighty elf-lords of old, and most of Legolas’ folk lack the supernatural skills of those guys since they haven’t lived as long. The elves in Rivendell are all OLD and many of the ones in Lorien are older then even that. The reason it’s so dark all the time there is because it’s mimicking the time before the sun and moon were in the sky when the elves were still a young people in Valinor.
Liam Allen
Uruks are halfway between goblins and men.
Gimli is scared of the hillmen of dunland but is willing to fight uruks for days.
Colton Wright
>though Gimli at least must be strong indeed because he along with Boromir plow a hole through the heavy snowdrifts of Caradharas so that the others can pass.
That's Aragorn and Boromir, who are both ~7' tall monsters. Gimili waits with the rest of the baggage.
Kayden Evans
>The elves in Rivendell are all OLD and many of the ones in Lorien are older then even that.
The Elves of Lorien never dwelt in Valinor and are several power levels below those that did. Galadriel emigrated there to rule over the lesser people.
James Brown
No, because there is no painstackingly defined "elf" for every work. At most you get it in the single work, but it's not even really clear even then, often.
Actually Legolas might well be older than Elladan and Elrohir, Elrond's sons (TA 130). It's the Noldor lineage, more than the accumulated experience.
I don't have any idea were you were taking the idea of Lorien's "darkness" (actually Frodo goes on saying that Cerin Amroth's colors are more vivid than everything he's ever seen, so quite the contrary), but Lorien is a bizzarre case. Galadriel is arguably the oldest creature in ME along with Sauron and the Wizards (that we know of with a degree of certainity, barring what Gandalf says of the Watcher or Tom Bombadil), being born before the Sun and the Moon, and Celeborn is almost surely not much younger... but Galadriel is the only Noldor in Lorien that we know of. The funny thing is that she ruled above a SINDARIN settlement. One could posit some other Noldo there, but it would definitely be a minority (contrast this with Rivendell). Considering how few elfs remained there, I wouldn't say 12.
>The One Ring introduces a Noldo at the court of Thranduil, and I guess it makes sense, but I would use the idea VERY sparingly, especially in places other than Rivendell. ME is absurdly depopulated, and all the "better" guys are alredady gone or going: Glorfindel is probably the last great warrior of the First Age, it's true that Elrond speaks of warriorS, but...
Easton Wood
Aragorn is 6'6" and Boromir 6'4". Far away from your claim.
Leo Lewis
>Tolkien speaks more of their hardiness and ability to tolerate discomfort then their pure strength >"The Dragon-helm was crafted for a Dwarf and was too large and heavy for an Elf. Even Men found the helm was too massive, and only Hador and some of his descendants had the strength to wear it."
