Paizo Games General /pgg/

>fun to make and fun to play are nearly always diametrically opposed
I've noticed that this is usually only the case when you're building for numbers and start to play a character who's infinitely good in just one area.

You wouldn't be "building characters to never play them" though.

Half the system is faggot taste?

Fine nigga, what do you play?

Depends on the familiar and how you got it. Most wizards first purchase an animal they then turn into a familiar via a ritual. Witches are contacted by a familiar in service to their patron.

So an optimized character?

Casters have shit defense which is my main issue. A wizard shits the bed when asked to make a fort save.

Depends on the character, usually it's just sort of assumed that EVERYONE has some magic in then though, that way I can justify whatever.
>Sorcerer's pet gains intelligence by being his closest friend
>A wizard performs a ritual to make his favorite pet his most valuable companion
>A dude gets so drunk he hallucinates his dead cat is not only still alive, but somehow talking to him. And it just won't go away.

This is why I like GMing more than playing.

So going off the advice from last thread, what do you guys think of a Teisatsu Vigilante for a sniper build? You get access to Rogue Talents like Superior Sniper and Ninja Talents like Vanishing Trick, and at 6th there's a Vigilante Talent that allows you to sneak attack regardless of range.

Are there any martial builds that can actually contribute to a functional party without becoming as complex as casters?

Alternately, are there any caster builds that are as simple as martials like 5es warlock?

Pathfinder has zero playable bug races so I've never had the opportunity.

> Build a nonlethal Intimidation Rogue
> Really like how all the feats synergize
> Put the character into an actual game and get killed because the DM doesn't understand how CR works

I honestly find Jack pof All trades boring as fuck to play honestly.

Story?

Have you tried not playing pathfinder?

I-Is this not Paizo general?

>Are there any martial builds that can actually contribute to a functional party without becoming as complex as casters?
I mean that depends on "contribute", doesn't it? You could have a Two-Handed Fighter who deals in Vital Striking for massive damage but still have somebody who thinks he does jack.

Initiators, Alchemist, Psionic classes, Sphere Casters, Slayers, Brawlers, Barbarinans, Legendary kineticist stuff.

There's Trox and Dromites.

Trox and Maenads

>Alchemist
Is that a joke?

>Dromites
Fuck ignore me, Dromites are the bug people. I love Psionics, but fucking hate the Psionic races so I get them mixed up regularly. Not like anyone actually plays them outside of Half Giant and maybe Elans.

Does vital strike do more damage than just using your iterative attacks?

>no vigilante
Faggot

It's legitimately the best designed class in 1pp.

Vigilante is okay mechanically, but as a class concept it's fucking cancerous. I'd only play one with legendary Vigilante content is on the table.

>Brawlers
Wouldn't that require knowledge of the entire list of combat feats?

I can’t tell if you’re serious or just retarded. They couldn’t take item crafting feats on release, any of them besides brew potion.

Well I had a section of my game involving an ooliodroo (moth-demon lady), her drider-boy minion, and a sort of cave nymph that got corrupted into a centipede lamia.

By the end of it three PCs were pregnant with moth eggs and the drider, restored to a drow, was marrying a farmgirl he had knocked up as a drider.

>Draconic Rage (Su): At 1st level, a wyrm singer can kindle an echo of ancient rage felt between warring dragon clans in his allies. This ability acts as inspired rage, except those affected gain a +2 morale bonus on melee attack and damage rolls and a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against paralysis and sleep effects (but they still take a –1 penalty to their AC), rather than inspired rage’s normal bonuses. At 4th level and every 4 skald levels thereafter, the song’s bonuses on saves against paralysis and sleep effects increase by 1. At 8th and 16th levels, the song’s bonus on melee attack and damage rolls increases by 1.

>Serpentine Rage (Su): At 3rd level, a serpent herald can call down Ragadahn’s features onto his allies. Allies affected by the serpent herald’s inspired rage ability gain a serpentine aspect of the serpent herald’s choice (all affected allies gain the same aspect). The serpent herald may choose from the following aspects: movement (+8 competence bonus on Climb and Swim checks, and targets can take 10 on these checks even when rushed or threatened), scales (+2 natural armor bonus), senses (low-light vision and scent), or a natural bite attack (1d4 damage for a Medium creature plus poison [bite—injury; save Fortitude DC 10 + half the serpent herald’s class level + his Constitution modifier; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1 Constitution damage, cure 1 save]). This is a polymorph effect; a creature under another polymorph effect, such as wild shape, does not gain the aspect. If the serpent herald grants one of these aspects to himself, he also gains the ability to speak with animals (reptiles and creatures with the aquatic subtype only) for as long as he has the aspect. The serpent herald must have the inspired rage raging song to use this ability.

So, the Wyrm Song says it functions as Inspired Rage. Does that allow you to use Serpentine Rage with it? Or would this end up being a dead ability if you stacked the two?

>crafting feat cancer
That's a good thing. Magic item crafting isn't something PC's should have access too and if that's what breaks a class for you then you're just being a big fat faggot.

The party are all members of a travelling circus and we'd been performing in "Essentially Waterdeep" for a few nights. After one of our performances, the party decides to split off and do various activities around the town: drink, gamble, the usual. Since my character had a bit of a grudge with the law around these parts, he was patrolling the camp that night.

That's when he ran into a Ghoul. After being knocked unconscious, our party's Mesmerist managed to show up, randomly crit it, and kill it. Turns out everyone else got ambushed by a Ghoul too, except they seemingly were around NPCs who were able to help.

After regrouping we realized the Skald was still missing, so we went to find him. We did, and a whole pack of Ghouls along with him. Then half of us rolled higher initiative than the Ghouls while the other half was gnawed to death by Ghouls.

This was all at level one.

They also have excellent utilityprovided by their extracts, can fulfill different skill roles thanks to different mutagens, have a bunch of strong PrC support, and Bombs function as an excellent way of performing both damage and CC together.
The Alchemist is good because it allows you fto fulfill different player niches and hasawide array of player build options that are actually bloody viable.

Seriously, how is any of this bad? Are you retarded or something?

>This was all at level one.
What?
Why?
Level one is for fucking around and embracing the rusty dagger shanktown. Why were you fighting ghouls?

SeeHe's upset he can't break the game with magic item craft cancer because alchemists should be able to make magic armor magic headbands and shit. At best I can see Alchemists getting magic arms and armor because mystical metallurgy. But that's it. Them making scrolls, wands, and shit like Bags of Holding make no sense to me.

Sure, but I wouldn't call them simple.

For a few levels, then it becomes more about whether you think your iteratives will hit or not.

It's bad because the reason it can do all that stuff is because it's three different theme chassis loosely stapled together in terms of mechanics without cohesion.

If Alchemist isn't "simple" to you, you might have issues dude.

Like the only class I would call "complex" in Pathfinder is fucking Kineticist and maybe Magus.

You’re cancerous. Go fuck your self.

It's plenty cohesive though. You choose a path to specialize in, but the other features are never truly useless. That's good design.

What do the Spheres of Might martial traditions mean when they say "You get a sphere"? Does that mean you get a single talent from that sphere?

I bet you think only Rogues can thieves and all Bards need to be musicians too.

>it's three different theme chassis
How is "magic chemist" too hard to understand? Both Mutagens and Bombs are natural and organic extensions of the concept of magical chemistry. Seriously, have you never read fucking Dr. Jekyl?
>without cohesion
Again, what kind of crap are you smoking? A class SHOULD be able to contribute to a game in multiple small ways that allow it to never betruly useless out of its specialization.

I think you may be retarded, or have absolutely trash taste

>Alchemist the best 1PP class
>not inquisitor
>not oracle
Disdain the pleb

As in you get the basic sphere package from that Sphere.

Fighters can get magic armor crafting with a feat at 3rd. Advanced armor training into Master Armorer.

The story reason? Someone's murdering folk and burying them in shallow graves that're attracting Ghouls (who can magically get into a heavily guarded city SOMEHOW!).

The actual reason is probably that my DM doesn't understand CR. He's been homebrewing shit for the longest time that I legitimately believe he's forgotten how it works. Hell, I went to test my rogue in the city's arena and the fucker threw a CR 1 Fighter at me. Bastard nearly killed me there, and the fight wasn't even supposed to be to the death!

No you moron. Literally the opposite which is why I’m fine with vigilantes.

>alchemists making constructs doesn’t make sense

A horde of ghouls is a bit much, but I don't think you should waltz into an arena and suddenly expect to start kicking ass at level 1.
I mean they can though. Maybe not at release iirc but they can though. But honestly, I don't think they should outside of Homunculi(who should honestly be abberations imo) and Alchemical Golems.

What's a real travesty is there's no way to really go full Frakenstein/Doctor Weird and create abominations.

Is this why monk and fighter get the short end of the stick so often? Pathfinder is not a system made for their kind of simplicity?

Okay, that makes sense. Can I take legendary combat talents with extra combat talent, or did I misread something somewhere?

Doesn't necessarily have to be a jack of all trades, I just don't tend to like characters who pump all their money, feats, class features, etc. into "+[?] damage with [insert weapon] or [insert use of skill]"

Playing a focused character is cool, a longsword master, a gunslinger, a pyromaniac wizard, but just having something for them to do outside of their niche is nice from a gaming and role-playing perspective.

Pretty much. Pathfidner is not kind to characters with small verb sets.
You can. Though you need GM permission.

>What's a real travesty is there's no way to really go full Frakenstein/Doctor Weird and create abominations.

>"Gentlemen, BEHOLD! I have made love to this Golem! And in hindsight I ask: why?"
>"I dunno master, you did it for magic research or-"
>"NO! Its because she was drunk and had no idea what she was doing!"
>Alchemist spontaneously retrains to Promethian and gains Homunculous
>"MY CONSTRUCT BOY!"

> A horde of ghouls is a bit much, but I don't think you should waltz into an arena and suddenly expect to start kicking ass at level 1.
I just wanted to try a bit of combat with the fella and test out some of the stuff he could already do. I admit that I made a mistake looking for a fight on my own like that, despite my decent STR/CON I was still just a Rogue, but yeah the horde of Ghouls were bullshit.

So now I'm playing a Half-Orc Sohei with a Hornbow and trying to stay as far away from the enemy as possible.

Mutagens, and bombs, and extracts, and discoveries, and normal potions and alchemical items all to keep track of, all running on different systems.

They're literally worse than full casters.

There are archetypes and discoveries for that.

Bump

>They're literally worse than full casters.
They honestly aren't and if you have trouble managing that shit, you might just be lazy/a brainlet.

>What's a real travesty is there's no way to really go full Frakenstein/Doctor Weird and create abominations.

Vivesectionist with fleshwarper.

>Mutagens,
no more complicated than a Barbarian Rage
>Bombs
Literally just a weapon option that you have a lmited number of. Just like most other ranged weapons
>Extracts
Like spells, but less confusing since in general you'll just be using them on yourself
>Discoveries
Basically a "bonus" that just about all the other classes get similar options to.

Literally no more complicated than a fucking Bloodrager. And if you're too retarded to keep track of a Barbarian, Bloodrager, or Alchemist, then you have no business playing fucking Pathfinder, one of the most crunchtastic ttrpgs out there.

I suggest switching to a rules-lite system, since you can even handle this game that'd probably be more your speed. Seriously, PF may not be GURPS, but it and most other d20 systems get pretty close in terms of crunchiness

Mutagens aren't even a system. It's just fucking
>did you use mutagen for today yes/no
Same for bombs
>You get X bombs
>did you use X bombs today

Discoveries are just rogue talents. Normal Potions and Alchemical items is shit everyone should be packing and deals with.

To be fair most people who play prepared casters play then like retards.

That has more to do with Vancian casting being a terrible system that encourages bad gameplay habits and broken abilities.

Sounds good to me. Personally, I'd also dip a level in Slayer, since Studied Target canbe performed out of combat and can make sniping your foe easier.

Bumping this

Not really? The base class is a goddamn mess of dabbling. It works, but you really need an archetype to focus it up.

Alchemists are straight up infusing chemicals with magic so they either explode, give them super strength, or act like potions. Alchemists not being able to craft by default is silly at best, and even then all it takes is one discovery to give them an actual Caster Level as an Arcane caster. Unless that got errata'd to ALSO not count for some arbitrary nonsense reason.

>Alchemists are straight up infusing chemicals with magic so they either explode, give them super strength, or act like potions.
Chemicles and liquids. Not cloth, metal, everything under the sun.

Maybe? Depends on if "acts as" is equivalent to "treat this as", which may vary by table.

Eh, color spray spam Heavens mystery mystic theurge does alright i've heard.

And I once built a grippli madness/protean domain cleric that just nerfed things into oblivion with tons of debuffs. So that was like, verb+synonyms.

I've also seen a spiritualist that made everything susceptible frightened or worse, mass denying actions.

So there are some niche builds.

>Not cloth, metal, everything under the sun.
What is: Chemically treated cloth, chemically treated wood, chemically treated metals. Dousing something in magical chemicals to make it magic is not remotely a stretch. I won't argue that crafting isn't dumb bullshit, but saying alchemist "doesn't make sense" to be a crafter when making things is his whole schtick is laughable.

"Fuckenstein, or The Modern Pygmalion"

All of those are 6th to 9th casters, they have large verbsets even IF they specialize super hard.

>. Dousing something in magical chemicals to make it magic is not remotely a stretch
It's a pretty big stretch imo. I can see weapons ad armor. But I can't see an alchemsit making something like a staffs, magic rings, bags of holdings, headbands etc.

If those bombs stay vanilla sure.

Look man, I remember having a new player who was alchemists and he still didn't have the hang of the class by the end of our campaign.

The same happened with a different player, different group who solved his problem by just ignoring half of the alchemists class features. He was basically an offbrand barb. Unlike the other, he wasn't new.

Point is, if a player can go an entire campaign and still be confused about how their class works, that's too crunchy and complex for its own good.

>"In b4 hurrdurr they a returd" ad hominem to dismiss the issue rather than actually respond

It sounds more like neither of those players felt like using the class's other abilities. That's on them, retard or not.

I guess what each of us consider acceptable for fantasy alchemy just isn't quite the same, then. The class is magical enough for me to find it pretty believable for them to just have a way to jury rig some bullshit to go with all their other magic bullshit. I do agree Staves and wands ARE something kinda fucking weird for an alchemist. Though I don't know what alchemist would actually WANT to make those himself.
I still want an actual hybrid spellcaster/extract brewer archetype.

Have you tried not playing

>who solved his problem by just ignoring half of the alchemists class features. He was basically an offbrand barb.
Did he try being one of the archetype combos that WAS basically just an offbrand barbarian (Vivesectionist/Beastmorph), because that sounds like it would suit him pretty well.

Vanilla Alchemist is pulled in like, 3-4 directions at once, if a player doesn't like/need a part of the class then ask them what they want and help them find something to help. There's usually an archetype to peel away and narrow its focus in some way.

>I still want an actual hybrid spellcaster/extract brewer archetype
I mean you could always just prestige into Brewkeeper...

>new player
That's the problem
>He was basically an offbrand barb. Unlike the other, he wasn't new.
Chances are then he probably only ever played a Barb or otherwise similar class, and even then he probably didn't bother to read the damned class.

Bombs aren't that complicated either. You have the base bomb, and will occasionally use a discovery to either change its damage type, or give it a rider effect. What the fuck is so difficult to understand about that? Its functionally identical to a Rogue's Sneak Attack combined with Talents, except with limited uses. If you can play a fucking Rogue, then you should have no problems playing an Alchemist

The Alchemist is not difficult to undertand. It has literally less shit to worry about than a fucking Occultist. Unless you think Occultists are bad, in which case you ARE retarded.

And yes, we're going to keep calling you that, since even after all the ways we've explained to you how simple the class is, and how its not that hard you keep whining and going "nuh-uh, it is HArd!!!1!", which does nothing but prove your own inability to actually read or understand any class thats more complicated than a fucking Rogue. Your coment about ad hominem is moot, as we've actually have kept explaining to you how simple and easy to understand the Alchemist is, yet after each explanation you still don't get it. Sorry, but you are indeed an idiot.

>inb4 you still ignore everything we tell you and go "durr you hurt my feefees by calling me dumb. I'll just call you 'add homo-neem'"

That's... That's not actually what I'm looking for, honestly. I'm kind of hoping for the Spell Knowledge discovery to just get expanded into an archetype. Hell, the Druid can take something that lets him make infusions, I think? The fuck's up with that?

Why would I not when theres Psionics and Spheres of power which work great.

Yes.

d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Druid/#TOC-Nature-Bond-Ex-

And I mean, there are plenty of D&D fantasy derivatives that still ride Jack Vances dead dick or are even worst with that "magic is pratically useless and is more detrimental than helpful to the point you wonder why they even presented it as a PC option" games.

>D&D fantasy derivatives
I mean non-D&D stuff.

The color spray one only has one sorcerer spell known due to crossblooded.
But yeah, it would get more spells eventually due to oracle.

Made a shirren. I like him. I wanted to make an insect shaman in Shadowrun, and there aren't any good bug races in PF.

>And yes, we're going to keep calling you that, since even after all the ways we've explained to you how simple the class is, and how its not that hard you keep whining and going "nuh-uh, it is HArd!!!1!", which does nothing but prove your own inability to actually read or understand any class thats more complicated than a fucking Rogue. Your coment about ad hominem is moot, as we've actually have kept explaining to you how simple and easy to understand the Alchemist is, yet after each explanation you still don't get it. Sorry, but you are indeed an idiot.

I have seen this exact spiel from a very pushy GURPS proselytizer. Nearly word for word.