Warcraft Lore and Story General

Maiev

Jarod

>"Weekend" Warcraft General
I wish you autists would just fuck off to Veeky Forums with your shit game. That's all you ever do in these threads. Bitch about the fucking video game.

>Which doesn't make up for the fact that Doomhammer fought muh honorable duel with Lothar
>alliance pussies still upset about this decade old retcon

I mean the lore is intrinsically linked to the games. It's like universes where they're linked to a TV show or movie, should lore threads sit on /tv/?

No because that board is trash. This thread is contained and if you're unhappy you can just ignore it.

Those fucking shoulders still haven't fucking dropped, fuck you Garrosh.

>hordepussies need a retcon for an orc to be able to 1v1 an aging human

Farondis.

>need
That's where you're wrong, sweetie. That retcon predates WoW, long before faction autists could shitfling.

>implying you needed WoW to play as the Horde
I'm going to guess you never played Warcraft 1 and 2 and realized you could control the green guys?

>being this dense
Hyper faction autism wasn't a thing until WoW, you mong. Nobody was screeching about Horde favoritism when the Lothar vs Orgrim retcon was revealed in the WC3 manual.

>hurr durr my pre-WoW
>backtracking this hard
The initial point was that it was a dumbass idea to change it in the first place, not that it was old. Your argument of, "muh old retcon" is completely pointless, it doesn't even argue against how stupid it was to change it and make it that (essentially) an intelligent gorilla needing a retcon to beat a 57 year old man.

A retcon predating WoW isn't even an argument against the fact that an Orc needed that retcon.

Groundskeeper Wilithien

>when you see Aedis Brom and Christoph Faral wandering around.

Those two always make me smile.

Alleria

What do you mean by that? Warcraft is a big universe. There could be a horror story, a comedy, a romance or a story for children.

To be fair the story wasn't actually terrible. Your run of the mill coming of age story with a variety of characters who all learn something as the story progresses. The fact that it was marketed as a Childrens book meant I bought it for my 7 year old Nephew, but it was a bit too old for him.

>The initial point was that it was a dumbass idea to change it in the first place
Only to a few outspoken retards.
>A retcon predating WoW isn't even an argument against the fact that an Orc needed that retcon.
>"o-orgrim NEEDED that retcon to beat lothar!!"
Lol just lol. The fact that Orgrim wins in EVERY SINGLE scenario is enough to disprove the notion that he "needed" to be retconned from AMBUSHING Lothar to beating him in a 1v1 fair fight. Really, it makes no sense. If Orgrim needed a retcon to beat Lothar, you'd think it would change from an honorable duel to an ambush rather than vice-versa. Orgrim stomps Lothar 1v1 in every scenario.

The retcon doesn't change the outcome of the fight, only Orgrim's characterization. Unless you're going to bitch about "muh noble dindu nigger orcs," you really don't have much of a point to make.

Honestly, I'm more annoyed about the retcon about his hammer being somehow some magic shamanism hammer rather than a historical hammer that Thrall had.

Not everything needs to tie back to your major source of power.

>Honestly, I'm more annoyed about the retcon about his hammer being somehow some magic shamanism hammer rather than a historical hammer that Thrall had.
Artifacts were pretty lame in general. Especially for Warriors.
>no Axe of Cenarius
>no Gorehowl
>no swords of Varian

The Doomhammer REALLY should have been the 2 handed warrior weapon. It's the most iconic two handed weapon in the setting and wielded by the most iconic warrior.

Instead you get Dinkyhammer as a 1 handed shaman hammer with a weird mimic one because the devs don't want to put in the work of redoing animations for a shaman to 2 handed hammer.

Well, throughout all of WC3 the Doomhammer was wielded one-handed and used as a channel for lightning

>Doomhammer was wielded one-handed

Mind you, I think that was 90% due to the devs not being sure how to make 2 handed + mounted work animation-wise.

"My father once told me the world was gonna roll me, I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed" -Jaina Proudmoore

So what retcons we gonna get in Chronicles 3? From the art I'm guessing Alliance defeated Onyxia and Neltharion alone, probably Ragnaros maybe they'll make the Horde defeat C'thun.

It also occured in the ending cutscene for the orc campaign

Thrall charges up the doomhammer and hurls it one-handed, only for Mannoroth to deflect it with his wing

I'm still mad they killed off Cairne Bloodhoof, he could have been such a good character in this current lore. But oh no we had to kill him to make Garrosh look hard and edgy and give us an excuse to time up the grimtotem storyline

>Only to a few outspoken retards.
hurr durr orcs being dishonourable is now for retards
>The fact that Orgrim wins in EVERY SINGLE scenario is enough to disprove the notion that he "needed" to be retconned from AMBUSHING Lothar to beating him in a 1v1 fair fight. Really, it makes no sense. If Orgrim needed a retcon to beat Lothar, you'd think it would change from an honorable duel to an ambush rather than vice-versa. Orgrim stomps Lothar 1v1 in every scenario.
He needed a retcon to 1v1 honourably, fucking tard. Before he ambushed him with bloodlusted ogres, which would be the equivalent of Lothar sneaking up on Doomhammer with a bunch of mounted paladins, and not to mention it was under a banner of peace too.
>muh Orgrim could beat Lothar 1v1
That's not the point being contested, the point is Orgrim needed a retcon to even 1v1 him. Orcs were that dishonourable and cowardly, and always have been you fucking retard.

Even on Draenor they raped Draenei women and killed the children, which is the exact opposite of honourable.

Personally I like the retcon

It doesn't magically make Orgrim a good person, he was still totally fine with prisoners being killed, farms being burned, and civilians being slaughtered. It just means he has some respectable qualities, which makes him an overall much more interesting character

They killed him off because they wanted the Horde to be generic bad guys opposite the Alliance being generic good guys and having one of the major players of the Horde being a wise, thoughtful leader who seeks peace did not fit with that

I mean, Magatha is still fucking alive, if they wanted to "time up the grimtotem storyline", she'd have been a raid boss by now

>Grimtotem join the Horde and we have tauren warlocks

>hurr durr orcs being dishonourable is now for retards
Not the user you were responding to but pretty much. Warcraft has been on that train for a long time now. Whether or not you like it, the "orcs are always cowardly and dishonorable" trope that's common in LotR hasn't applied to Warcraft for... what, 20 years? Still harping on about it just shows you don't really know what setting you're in and crying about it isn't going to change anything.

>So what retcons we gonna get in Chronicles 3? From the art I'm guessing Alliance defeated Onyxia and Neltharion alone
Considering that only the allies had a real quest regarding oni that's a given sadly.
The horde quest summed up as "kill any pretenders and anyone who thinks he can use any horde as tools."
The Horde reason for killing Oni was that she manipulated the dark Horde into her service. No Interaction with her beforehand. She messed with the wrong motherfuckers.
Meanwhile allies got to uncover a massive intrigue, Oni in the capital and so on...

>Not the user you were responding to but pretty much. Warcraft has been on that train for a long time now.
Not really, even in WoW orcs do shady stuff all the time (like Garrosh's mana bomb, and really anything involving Garrosh is generally quite shady and dishonourable).

> Whether or not you like it, the "orcs are always cowardly and dishonorable" trope that's common in LotR hasn't applied to Warcraft for... what, 20 years? Still harping on about it just shows you don't really know what setting you're in
Yes, Grom must have been real honourable when he attacked humans after Thrall specifically told him not to do that, and drinking demon blood even though he 100% knew it was a wrong thing to do. Very honourable of the orcs.

Or when they started rounding up all non-orcs in Orgrimmar, even the civilians.

Or how the uncorrupted orcs from Draenor immediately went full invasion and began enslaving anyone who disagreed with them.

Literally the Horde was only really honourable under Thrall (with the exception of Grom), and that's only because he was raised by humans.

>crying about it isn't going to change anything.
Crying about how people think it's stupid that orcs are supposedly honourable yet aren't really isn't helping your case either.

>Not really, even in WoW orcs do shady stuff all the time
As does every race in the game.
>Grom
That's one orc whose entire story was about atonement for being an asshole.
>Orgrimmar
Blizzard went on record saying 90% of the Orcish race opposed Garrosh and his Kor'kron.
>Draenor
A legitimate death world where every creature was an enemy, on top of demonic meddling/influence. Chronicle 2 even explains how the orcs viewed the draenei as a threat.
>Thrall
Durotan is very much like Thrall and he wasn't raised by humans. Thrall's honor is perfectly in line with orcs who weren't raised by humans.
>Crying
I don't have a case to make because 1. I'm not the user you were originally arguing with and 2. what I'm telling you is already the setting default/Word of God from Blizzard.

Thrall's sense of honor was created almost entirely by orcs, he built it not off of what he learned under Blackmoore, but what he learned from Drek'thar and Orgrim

This is why Thrall is so willing to forgive pat mistakes and offer a second chance even when he really, really shouldn't, like he did with Grom in WC3. Because the one who inspired him, the one who's sense of honor he based his own off of, was considered a monster by pretty much everyone else, and he had been a monster, but by the time Thrall met him, he was defeated, and forced to come to terms with the mistakes of he had made.

Then Cataclysm happens and this trait of his is expanded upon to be his only character trait in such a way that he looks like a dribbling retard, willing to trust anyone who offers him a half-hearted apology

>As does every race
Yeah I remember the Gnomes dropping a nuke on a Horde city. Wait no, they didn't.

>Grim
He made the exact same mistake of drinking demon blood again, the fact that he needs to even atone is a mark of him being a huge dishonorable asshole. And every orc under him listened and drank the blood for a second time, so it's not just him who is a total moron.

>Orgrimmar
Sauce on that, and the fact that it even happened is indicative of the orc's lack of honour.

>Death World
The land being harsh does not mean it was right for uncorrupted orcs to go enslave non orcs.

And I'm talking about WoD where they had no demon blood and still enslaved Frostwolves and Draenei for disagreeing.

>Duroarn
Hooray, 1 good orc out of the multitudes of other leaders.

>word of God
Yeah Blizzard can say all they want about orcs being honourable, but the evidence is they aren't. God can say 2+2 is 5 but evidence doesn't indicate that. Cry all you want about word of God but you're just being blindly faithful.

Anything past warcraft 3 roc is utter shit.

The first shitty lore came out of TFT, then WoW came and it was a complete train wreck.

Shut up, WC3 pleb.

Night elves won't be good again

I'd say classic was really bad but the burning crusade was what killed the lore altogether

Night elves won't be good again

Sylvanas.

I don't believe that the night elves joining the Alliance and Forsaken joining the Horde is sufficient for classic to be called "really bad"

As stupid as that was, the extraneous world-building in Classic was usually really good

Remember when Night Elf males were massively muscled guys with huge beards and were the only actual non-hero Night Elves that fought in melee? And how they had sharp claws and fangs?

We have already been through this in the last thread. The night elves have explicitly ended their isolationism and sought out allies. People keep expecting the usual haughty retard elf tropes out of them while they are doing massively sensible things.

I think switching Orgrimmar from south Durotar to north had a lot of implications Blizzard probably didn't expect.

Because as W3 they had no reason to end the isolationism and join the Alliance (as depicted as it is in World of Warcraft) because they were a power on their own.

>Because as W3 they had no reason to end the isolationism and join the Alliance (as depicted as it is in World of Warcraft) because they were a power on their own.

this, they would obviously be the largest and most influential member of any alliance if they wanted to be part of one simply because they held the most resources at that point of time

>It's the most iconic two handed weapon in the setting
Gorehowl still exists, user.

Isn't Frostmourne more iconic?

>the most iconic two handed weapon in the setting

Ahem...

Well, almost

The dwarves have a lot of resources available to them, and are the only significant force that wasn't destroyed or at least drastically harmed over the course of the RTS games

But yes, the night elves were significantly stronger than the humans or orcs at the end of WC3, even after the devastation of their forces, so even assuming the dwarves could match them, that still means you've put the two most powerful forces in the world on the same side

which was not only broken, but is also not for warriors.
Id also argue that the Paladin hammer is fairly iconic, but I will agree that pretty much everyone and their mother knows about Frostmourne.

Gorehowl, if you recall, was lootable from Prince Malchezaar in BC

The only artifact weapon previously made available in any form was the ashbringer in it's corrupted form. I mean, arcane mages don't get atiesh and demon hunters don't get the warglaives of azzinoth, and druids don't get the Horn of Cenarius

The part you quoted was only the most iconic 2 handed weapon, not the most iconic 2 handed warrior weapon.

>Because as W3 they had no reason to end the isolationism

>lost their world tree and immortality
>their lands got devastated
>their druids got awakaned
>no point laying low anymore, trying to hide from a demonic invasion

They had absolutely zero reason to stay isolated instead of seeking out allies to rebuild and reestablish their place in the world.

Why were the Druids sleeping again?

They could build and purify the land they were living already, which was their place of the world since the sundering. Instead they lost all their former allies and most of their territory became neutral, only so the humans could have their blue human sidekicks.

They tend to do it when they've got nothing better to do

if you think about it if they made more than two factions that wouldn't be a problem. The dwarfs can make one faction and the night elves another. They are on opposite ends of the world anyway

>They could build and purify the land they were living already, which was their place of the world since the sundering

And they can do that without being isolationist retards. They are no longer immortal and they have to adapt. They cant pretend going on like nothing have changed, half of their vanilla quests are about this.

>Instead they lost all their former allies

Killed in battle or just generally destroyed in the invasion. Dont forget how even in WC3 youre going around putting furbolg down for being corrupted. Also. sorta true because blizzard got lazy with putting most of their shit in.

>most of their territory became neutral,

They only ever gave a fuck about Hyjal, Ashenvale and the lands directly next to them. Night elves sending out patrols for the entirety of Kalimdor is a very new thing for them.
I really, really dont get why everyone try to shoehorn the night elves into an archetype blizzard very consciously subverted.

>isolationist retards
It is about being wary of the other races, they were xenophobic kinda like the japanese. I think they could learn to work with other races but not the way it went down of them bending to the humans.

>Killed in battle

Timbermaw went neutral despite Tyrande saving them.
Dryads went neutral, same thing with keepers.
Chimeras retconned to be just monsters from Feralas later retconned to come from Draenor.
Stone giants made neutral almost non-existant.
Got some ents in Darnassus and Darkshore, the rest somehow went extinct too.
To all this you have to add the Cenarion Circle going neutral because reasons.

>entirety of Kalimdor

Kaldorei patrolled most of the woods, you have Feralas and also Silithus (War of Shifting Sands being 1000 years prior w3) then you have a zone like Wintersprings, just the entrance to Hyjal, where goblins are the main hub.

>an archetype blizzard very consciously subverted

Blizzard did change a lot of things in a lot of races, but it is not evolving them or evolving the history. It is made to pander a common denominator, basically humans and orcs (green humans) fighting alongside they funny/friendly sidekicks.

It does say something about the general state of mind of the kaldorei that, despite being nomads living in the plains just south of Ashenvale, the tauren did not actually know they existed

Real talk tho when is someone going to run a Warcraft-set game already?

I did a one-shot once using the OGL warcraft system

Everyone felt weirded out by how badly the system represented in-game abilities. I think if I were to try again, I'd use homebrewed 4e or 5e.

Too bad i do not have enough time to actually create a working homebrew for either system, especially not 4e

I would love to play one but I'm completely unfamiliar with D&D.

No blond heirs for the throne of Lordaeron

>Everyone felt weirded out by how badly the system represented in-game abilities

I never understood that sentiment. The system doesn't have to represent in-game abilities, just the Warcraft universe. If I wanted to play with specific Warcraft mechanics, I'd go play actual Warcraft.

Yeah thats just part of blizzards larger agenda of making everything Alliance related neutral.

Its pretty funny how huge of a retcon tauren druids and the entirety of the Cenarion Circle was and no one bats an eye about it but they blew a gasket about the draenei and the eredar. Really disliked how they made the absolutely feral and wild druids who almost went rogue in rage in WC3 into goody two shoes.

>Kaldorei patrolled most of the woods, you have Feralas and also Silithus (War of Shifting Sands being 1000 years prior w3

IIRC the war was not long after the Sundering, and part of the reason they stop giving a shit about the world. They will just guard the well of eternity, and the dragons can take care of the rest, just like they took care of them.

>Blizzard did change a lot of things in a lot of races, but it is not evolving them or evolving the history. It is made to pander a common denominator, basically humans and orcs (green humans) fighting alongside they funny/friendly sidekicks.

No shit, after vanilla literally everything got dumbed down and all the subtle worldbuilding was gone but the general gist of vanilla that elves are integrating into the Alliance pretty well stayed. I really liked the small touches like the Park in Stormwind and the Argent guildhouse in Teldrassil. I really wish they'd given more attention for the cultural exchange, maybe have some pissed off night elf traditionalists. Hell, the original manual and some vanilla quests even said it outright how the military weight of the Alliance is sliding into night elf hands.

Yeah, the whole cenarion circle thing really shows why the night elves probably should have been neutral

On the other hand, I really like the idea that in the distant past all the children of the ancients had druids, they just drifted away as the elves got more isolationist

Every thread we get
>no reason for NE to join the Alliance
and even
>NE are a better fit in the Horde because of Tauren

When the only reason the Night Elves needed was a faction being enemies of the Orcs and the Forsaken.
I get that Orcs have members and traditions of honour, but they are a race of barbaric destroyers and every race in the game has reasons to hate them.

As a Shaman main I agree that Doomhammer should have been a Warrior weapon for Orc Warriors, and I think different Race/Class combos should've gotten special weapons bar one or two particular specs.

BUT the second hammer Enhancement get is pretty cool, it's a gift from Therezane and rounds off the uniting the elemental planes theme of the their class hall.

Except trolls and tauren

Nah, druidism was an exclusively night elf thing. Malfurion himself came up with the whole thing and was the first mortal druid. Even after the tauren got retconned in, their origin story hanged out in Thunder Bluff was deemed only a "racial rumor" and not true.

>they just drifted away as the elves got more isolationist

I think its hard to understand their flavor of isolationism. It was not Tokugawa closed, not chinese inward perfection, not the 19-20th century splendid isolation. They just did not give a SHIT about all those tribals scurrying around on kalimdor. Who could have challanged them? The trolls? The furbolgs? The centaur? No one. They could just sit on their asses for centuries and millennia and simply outlast entire civilizations. They had the sacred duty of defending the Well of Eternity, so they had no reason to leave either. The lesser races also stopped bothering them because of the well founded myths of mysterious forest ghosts haunting Ashenvale. Like the other guy said, the other races didnt even know about the night elves had existed.

Just imagine the rough wake up call from this. Your center of civilization is dead, your immortality is gone, everything is gone and things are compeltely different now,.

Hm

yeah, I can see why tauren would be willing to fight night elves in this

WC3 concepts for night elves were that all the women were warriors and all the men were druids. Obviously sex-restricted classes couldn't last in an MMO.

Plenty of other MMOs had and still have sex restricted classes. Blizzard just went with that design choice.

>Hell, the original manual and some vanilla quests even said it outright how the military weight of the Alliance is sliding into night elf hands.

oh what could have been

Calia Menethil.

tauren are just as much WE WUZ than the other races of the horde
>WE WUZ LORDAERON AN SHIT
>WE WUZ HONORABLE AN SHIT
>WE WUZ EMPIRES AN SHIT
>WE WUZ DRUIDS AN SHIT
they truly fit perfectly together. All shit races that deserve extermination

she renounced her claim. I guess the dead elf pussy was too good to pass on

Fuck

I really liked the idea of Forsaken rebels trying to push Calia as the rightful leader of the Forsaken

You can't refuse a claim tho

why doesn't she rape anduin

>durrr, lets add some well known dudes as priest champions, any ideas?
>alonsus faul?
>isnt he dead?
>nah, just add him as a forsaken
>any more ideas?
>calia menethil?
>isnt she like a princess or something?
>nah, just add her

How the fuck could Blizzard give this little of a shit about their own lore? Being a heir of a kangdom ans a literal princess would be an absolutely fucking HUGE thing.

She never officially renounced her claim to the throne of Lordaeron. The line that claimed she did was a beta-only line and never made it to live.

This is despite her spoken greeting line, "It's just Calia now."

Who is in this image? It is Jaina and Arthas?

Yes, that's young Jaina and young Arthas, when they were still lovebirds. Don't forget they canonically smashed once.

>yfw they retcon that varyan killed onyxia

I thought C'thun was canonically slain by the "Might of Kalimdor" a combined Horde-Alliance army lead by Saurfang.

Also adding that Saurfang should have been the warchief since WotLK

Thrall should have just remained warchief, the whole "world shaman" thing is bullshit

Also Aggra shouldn't exist and Gallywix should have been kicked out at the end of the goblin starting zone