/btg/ BattleTech General

Should I just play Lyran or Free Worlds? Judging from some of the posts in the last threads they seem to have a broader selection of mechs.

Bite me. It's a fun as hell Mech. It's also objectively bad by any measure.

OK. So here we go. The total tonnage of this force is 770 tons, and the total BV2 is 15,323. Giving up 30 tons in exchange for 3 more BV2 means that you're fighting at the disadvantage. Technically. DO NOT LET HIM PICK THE DAMN TERRAIN, and ideally don't let him see your list prior to the terrain being set up.

If your opponent bitches at you, point out that your list has JUST AS MANY faction-appropriate Mechs as his does. Every single Mech on this list is on the MUL's Drac availability list.

Fast Attack Lance - use this to hunt down and physical his "support lance" to death.
>Dragon -1N
>Dragon -1N
>Phoenix Hawk -1
>Phoenix Hawk -1

Fire Support Lance - pick 1 target/turn and make them fight in the shade
>Archer -2K
>Archer -2K
>Archer -2K
>Spider -5K (spotter if necessary)

>Fuck off and Die Lance - pick one target/turn and melt the fucker. Prioritize the Victor if you get a good look at it, then the Orion (both are susceptible to ammo crits)
>Awesome -8Q
>Awesome -8Q
>Awesome -8Q
>Awesome -8Q

I'll be blunt. This force is less a "fun and fluffy list" and more of a "fuck off with your min-maxing bullshit" list.

See if he wants to play fun and fluffy lists after this clusterfuck is done. People who play games with newbies like this just me me goddamn furious. That's how you drive people away from the hobby.

Jeesus christ that list, 8 heavies, 2 Assaults and 2 Medium mechs, yeah that is basically meant to win matches in 3025 table while giving out veneer that it's from that timeframe.

>People who play games with newbies like this just me me goddamn furious.
>That's how you drive people away from the hobby.
"But muh win/loss ratio!"

>a full lance of Awesomes
[nods in parliamentary deadlock]

...

*rebels respectfully towards you*

Could you explain how he's cherry-picked / min-maxed his mech selection? Aside from the JagerMech which I'm assuming sucks.

Marauder 3D is big giveaway of cherrypicking, See Regular Marauder has problems with it's legs and sidetorsos as the ammo is there. 3D has Large Laser instead of the AC/5 and also alot more armor than regular so it can take more hits. Orion-K is also very well armored beast compared to other Orions. Then you have Crusader 3K that is not so fragile variant of the Crusader family. Awesome is basically zombie mech that usually dies to cockpit hit that kills the pilot than any other way.

Lack of ammo to blow up in most designs. Lots of armor.

What said, also no lights in an Era where lights were super common. He's supposedly playing fluffy mercs then builds a list that would stand up to the goons.

Also it has 8 heavies and 2 Assault mechs in what so called "merc" list. Personally I don't give rats ass what sort of lists people make but that smells to high heaven as WAAC list disguised as a fluffy list which is jackass move.

I see. If any of you still play 3025 (is this super common?) I'd love to see any unit lists you have to share that you've used. Any faction.

And what is WAAC?

>WAAC
winning at all costs, typically understood as a method of describing cheese lists that are bullshit for fun/fluffy games.

WAAC are assholes than take anything than its very good in meta and usually play as dirty as the rules allow (and lots of times skirming them).

WAAC - Win At All Costs

I mostly play WoB or Lyrans in Jihad era these days. Mostly lance on lance because that's all I have time for.

My last game was Lyran:
1 Hollander (BZK-F3)
1 Blitzkrieg (BTZ-3F)
1 Thanatos (TNS-4S)
1 (modified) Zeus (ZEU-9T)

I generally play 3039 and onward. I've had my fill of bugs slapfighting each other.

>Aside from the JagerMech which I'm assuming sucks.

You assume correctly. AC/2s and AC/5s are the worst weapons in the game, and that's all the Jaegermech mounts.

>Could you explain

What he's done is taken almost entirely non-standard versions of Mechs, from a variety of faction lists, and practically every single one of them is optimized for armor protection and survivability over what the Mech was originally designed for. As user said upthread, comparing the MAD-3D to the MAD-3R is a good example: the MAD-3D isn't susceptible to ammo crits, fixes the armor issue, and fixes the overheating issue of the standard -3R. It's a better Mech in respect. And that is true of practically every single Mech variant he has in the list. The Rifleman, Crusader, Marauder, Orion, and Jagermech all benefit hugely from this over their standard verion.

Second, he's skewing heavily to the "heavy" end of the weight spectrum. It's true that some in universe units do this, and it's also true that a played Merc unit which survives for any length of time will skew toward heavier Mechs since they're more survivable. But playing a long-term Merc unit against a new player who's using RATs is pretty explicitly exactly what you aren't supposed to do. In general, a standard IS company should be able to count on a light lance, a medium lance, and a heavy lance. You should expect a NORMAL company to have 3-5 light Mechs, 4-6 medium Mechs, 2-4 Heavy Mechs, and 0-2 Assault Mechs.

>And what is WAAC?

Win at all costs. Screw the fluff. Screw sportsmanship. Screw actually challenging yourself. Always pick the optimal choices at all time and do anything you can within the boundaries of the rules to win each and every game.

That's a really mean list NEA. I approve. I'm kind of surprised you didn't recommend aerospace and bomb spam, since if they're playing Total Warfare rules the opponent

Wow, the succession wars drac rats are really generic. I think that command lance you listed last thread was a best-case-scenario, they dont really start getting flavorful assaults until post-succession-wars. I almost wonder if the offer of a full assault lance is a trap.

Alright, here goes...

The command lance doesn't feel very Davion at all. Three of the mechs are hallmarks of a different faction, the crusader is more combine, the catapult is more liao, and the thunderbolt is more steiner. I play fedsuns, and if I were playing at this level of cheese (which I usually do, desu) I'd do something more like:

>Marauder 3D
>Warhammer 6D
>Jagermech 6A
>Jagermech 6A

For the Assault Lance, again, it's only semi davion flavored. his marauder and victor fit, but the Orion and Awesome are again, more FWL staples. Personally I'd field this in his place:

>Battlemaster 1D
>Victor 9B
>Victor 9B
>Enforcer 4R

and for the Support Lance, well, this is the first one that feels appropriately Davion. It's not quite how I'd build it, but that's more a matter of personal preference.

>Rifleman 3N
>Jagermech 6S
>Centurion 9A
>Valkyrie QA

Overall, there's just a really high presence of other factions mechs. Which, if he doesnt give a shit about being Davion flavored, thats fine. But if hes trying for faction flavor, I'd have ONE stranger per lance, not two or three. An orion OR an awesome, not both. Also, some of his choices of Davion mechs are pretty shamelessly "the best version of this design we're said to use" (and I do that too, in my theoretical above list). the Jager 6A is one of the nicer jagers, with those LRM-15 racks. The Rifleman is a dual AC/10 variant with far easier to manage heat.

I wouldn't refuse to play if that came to my table, not on the force list alone, but if he had a shit attitude too, it'd be the only game we ever played.

My current 3031 merc company:

Command Lance:
>Archer-2R (Coy OC command unit)
>Centurion with the AC/20 (bodyguard)
>Phoenix Hawk-1 (Coy 2IC command unit)
>Rifleman-3N (comms specialist/air defence)

Alpha Lance
>Wolverine-6R
>Hunchback-4G
>Wasp-1K
>Wasp-1

Bravo Lance
>Phoenix Hawk-1
>Shadow Hawk-2H
>Griffin-1N
>Locust-1V

Bravo Lance is the players' unit with the Shad, Griffin and Locust being their rides.

Thanks guys.

The people I've played at the hobby shop with say bugs are shit so they never use them.
Is there *ever* a practical time to use bugs outside of fluffiness?

>post limit

>Your list. Any faction.

Here's a general purpose Davion list I keep around. We generally play around 12k BV with 3025 companies, and this is 11652 before any pilots. Weight limit is about 600 tons (ie, 50 ton average mass), and this clocks in at 580.

Command Lance
>Victor -9B
>Marauder -3D
>Rifleman -3N
>Centurion -A

Battle Lance
>Warhammer -6R
>Enforcer -4R
>Enforcer -4R
>Javelin -10N

Light Lance
>Phoenix Hawk -1
>Valkyrie QA
>Valkyrie QA
>Wasp 1A

It's not intended to be used in an environment where it's all bug slapfights, all the time. The 600 ton weight limit should make that clear. But there's a clear spread of mech chassis in there, good (Mad-3d) and bad (Rifleman), light and heavy, survivable and not.

>using bugs
In 3025 games. Or as spotters for artillery mechs.

You really don't want to be using light mechs at all post 3050.

I can see people using Bugs in when people are doing scenarios. There was one scenario in one the earlier books that was basically bugs vs bugs

Bugs are conditionally shit, as in if they face anything medium or above, they're in grave risk of getting their giblets kicked out of them. If they can gang up on a medium, then they have a fighting chance. But as spotters, vehicle killers and recce units in a double blind game they're viable as long as you don't end up in a situation where they can take more they can give. The flamer and machine gun bugs (WSP-1K, WSP-1D, Stinger) are good at shredding infantry and get even better if paired with standard Wasps loaded with inferno SRMs and smoke to build cover.

>Is there *ever* a practical time to use bugs outside of fluffiness?

There's no Battletech game which *shouldn't* be played with fluffiness as the first and foremost concern. It's not a competitive game, and shouldn't try to be one.

Aside from that, no, not really. They aren't maximally effective. That's the whole point. 3025-era Battletech is designed to be a game where you don't get to choose and cherry pick your Mech designs. Your unit uses the mechs it has available to it, or the Mechs owned by the nobles who are assigned to your unit, and let the chips fall as they may.

This changes as the timeline evolves. But NOT in 3025 play.

For the challenge? Cheesy lists can get boring after a while, and honestly I find the stories that come out of Battletech games to be more fun than simply winning.

For example in the list I posted above I took a Blitzkrieg. The Blitzkrieg only mounts a UAC/20. Which is an AC/20 which can be fired twice a turn - if you're willing to chance it jamming and becoming useless. I've never seen it in a cheesy list meant to consistently win games. However, it is a mathematical truth that you will never have more fun than when you put a Blitzkrieg down on the table.

...

This is exactly what I was trying to reference.

I only been lurking in the battletech generals for a few days. Are we suppose to be fun and fluffy or pull some min-max cheese bullshit?

What's the best place to get BT miniatures these days?

Both, depending on the situation. If your opponent is going to try and load up with a dozen Gausszillas and call it fluffy, you have the right (and duty) to bring 12 nuclear Urbies.

Former is the preferred way to play for most posters here. We don't have many WAACfags, though of course people also still play to win. Latter is fine in a group with that sort of mentality and not the wrong way to play per se, but is also the worst default attitude to have when just generally speaking about playing the game.

>12 nuclear Urbies
>Not a dozen LAMs

Just because you're not being fluffy doesn't also mean you're minmaxing.

I'm a firm believer of PICK MECHS GO FIGHT and sometimes that involves basically flipping through the TROs and saying "Wait, have I ever used that?".

Hm, this is also true. A third option arises! Though admittedly I usually do that then build a fluffy force to suit it based around it that's faction appropriate. But I'm a faggot like that.

I see, then what's the official way and tournament legal way?

Depends on what sort of game is being played.

>Fluffy "historical" scenario?
Hand-pick units based on what is available and feels common to that faction at that time period; balance isn't even a concern because a historical scenario isn't *supposed* to be balanced, most of the time.

>Campaign play?
Hand-pick units based on what is available and feels common to the faction being played during that time period, then go through and check for both "smell test" balance *AND* BV2 balance. If I'm stuck on what to populate a portion of the overall list, then the RATs come out.

>Need to come up with a scenario fast or just playing a game to blow shit up and waste time?
Roll on the RATs, or quick-build something that I know won't skew towards any extreme power level.

>Friendly tournament-style game?
Pick a theme for the force and make that theme work to the best of my ability via hand-picking, within the tournament ruleset. Note that "making a RAT function" is a valid theme, and would necessitate rolling RATs instead of hand-picking.

>Competitive tournament-style game?
Hand-pick and abuse the BV2 system to within an inch of its life while respecting the boundaries of the tourney ruleset. This is the sort of thing that produces max-8k BV2, no-repeated-variant lists, consisting of x1 -1G Annihilator, x1 -2A Annihilator, x1 -Gausszilla Annihilator , and x1 -4A Annihilator (4/6) for ~7,998 BV2.

All types are VALID.

The trick, of course, is you and your opponent being on the same page regarding the type of game being played. And you both being honest to stick to the "build a list" type which matches the game type. For example, the above user has an opponent who is *saying* "just play a game to blow shit up", and is actually building lists based on the "Competitive tournament-style game" mode. That's the problem.

If we're doing this, please rate my company:

Command Lance
>Shadow Hawk -5M
>Cicade -3M
>Griffin -3M
>Thunderbolt -5S

Strike Lance
>Warhammer -7M
>Tempest -3M
>Rifleman -5M
>Marauder -5M

Fire Lance
>Warhammer -7M
>Ostsol -5M
>Orion -1-M
>Cyclops - 11-A

There isn't one. And "official" and "tournament" mean two different things.

Talk it over with your group and come to an understanding like adults. If there's a tournament, talk to the TO and/or read the list-building rules. If it's an official event, well, you won't be bringing your own forces anyway, because CGL doesn't really run "build a list and play in a tiered tourney" games any more.**

BattleTech is not and never has been a game like 40K, where games are entirely about getting X number of points to build a list from your faction, and bring it to play against other lists of X number of points. BattleTech started as a quasi-historical game first, and the point-balancing system was added well afterwards to give a VENEER of tourney-balancing ability, but it was never intended to be played that way "officially". If anything, the "proper" way to play BT is in a refereed campaign arc against a GM-run opposing force.

8000 armies? Can a map even support that much trucks, infantries, and chevaliers?

What build list should I have if I want to play Battletech ISIS?

What are Light Mechs/10

what? Can you say that in english? 8000 armies?

Speaking of Light mechs, what is the best way to provide models for bugs?
Would there be appeal for a 'bug only' type lance pack?

>what is the best way to provide models for bugs?

www.ebay.com/itm/Single-all-Metal-Wasp-mech-on-a-hex-Base-Ready-for-paint-and-playing/222766620022

Look for seller "foundrytoys-2013"

I personally use a warhansa locust, and the official reseen stinger and wasp since I don't mind those ones.

Eww, don't. That's Dave the Toymaker, shit-tier recaster.

8000 BV army build list

What's the problem? They're basically official: the money he makes goes to the Bills family.

>What are Light Mechs/10
Effectively useless outside of niche scenarios post-3050.

With Superheavy 'Mechs a thing, the categories should just be shifted up one and any design under 30 tons just discarded.

They're not official, and he's not related to Randall Bills; that was some stupid conspiracy theory based on something Dave himself claimed. Anyone who's had any experience with Dave knows he's insane.

If you don't care about any of that, then from a quality standpoint his minis tend to be garbage, full of flash and melty blobs because he reuses things long past the point where they should be trashed.

Are there *any* light mechs that remain useful past 3050? Are even Clan lights useless?

>t. Lyran Commonwealth

Yes, a map can support an 8K BV army. 8K is a fairly small game, 10K is usually good for a Clan Star once you take the piloting BV adjustment into account. And generally, you don't play on "a map", you play on a 2x2 map setup, bare fucking minimum.

If you had 8000 BV of nothing but civilian trucks, infantry squads, and horse cavalry, you'd probably want a 3x2, because it'll be hard fitting all that across only 2 maps. You're missing the entire point of the game, though, and you shouldn't bitch when you get the shit kicked out of you by Mechs or air power.

>and he's not related to Randall Bills

>t. Randall Bills

>Are there *any* light mechs that remain useful past 3050?

No. Nothing less than 35 tons should be legal post-3050.

>what is the best way to provide models for bugs?
Old 3025 mech lots on ebay. Wasps and such are common enough.

This is an old problem that was going to be fixed with the new IWM Wasp etc. but got temporarily fucked by the Harmony Gold suit. Macross gashapon and Robotech tactics minis work fine as well but the second are a little too big. Good for bulk classic archers, warhammers, riflemen and longbows though.

You caught me.

Post 3050, in direct combat Lights are best employed as pack hunters or vehicle hunters.Or things like the Venom and other hyper specialized skirmishers. Otherwise, they're scouts and always will be. Even Clan Lights skew towards skirmishing than anything else.

>LC
>Not using the Scab
It's cheap, it's fast, spots for your arty, and it puts a hatchet in some poor bastard's back.

>Otherwise, they're scouts and always will be.

But scouting is a strategic-level concern and Battletech is a tactical-level game. Therefore as strategic assets they shouldn't be allowed exist as units you can take in an actual Battletech game, just like LAMs.

>You're missing the entire point of the game, though, and you shouldn't bitch when you get the shit kicked out of you by Mechs or air power.

That what makes it fun, because you know that you are the underdog with an outdated army. I'm pretty sure there some people here who would love to fight Battletech ISIS.

I've been told after the Clan invasion lights are useless. And with improved weapons and speeds for heavier mechs I don't see many useful lights anymore.

>Thanks guys.

No Prob

>The people I've played at the hobby shop with say bugs are shit so they never use them.

They are, and I almost never really do either. Depending.

>Is there *ever* a practical time to use bugs outside of fluffiness?

Girls like swarms of things, right?

They're dirt cheap, so they're great for big zerg rush swarms of things. Which no one at all has time for on the tabletop, so you do it in MegaMek. They're also good for part of my "Distributed suck" tactic, wherein I take a good number of really lackluster cheap mechs with average pilots, so that no one loss is really all that damaging to my force, and no one unit sticks out to bully.

They're not useless. They're just not worth their BV in a match where you're playing against heavier machines. Which is true of old bugs too, so I don't see what anybody is bitching about. Unless you're ultracompetative, you'll probably have about 1/4 of your BV as throwaway fun anyhow.

I've loaded up plain old Commando 2D's with Tandem Charge Warheads in the FCCW and raped XL assaults like Devastators to death. Or taken RAC5 Garms in Operation Georgie Porgie against the Caps. It's the stuff with straight upgrades that inflate the BV without giving much that are really not worth it. Like the reseen Valk is exactly what you want in a campaign upgrade but the bump in BV makes you start even looking back at old 3025 Griffins and stuff to take for a few hundred more.

That's a legitimate thing that's a threat to lights though. As everything gets teched up and more expensive, the old plain models of mediums become a lot more enticing than the latest 20 ton jet fighter on legs.

>That's a legitimate thing that's a threat to lights though. As everything gets teched up and more expensive, the old plain models of mediums become a lot more enticing than the latest 20 ton jet fighter on legs.
Kind of, but you just have to build to recognize your limits. Like this Nexus, which eschews the XLFE to be cheap...ish.

>I'm pretty sure there some people here who would love to fight Battletech ISIS.

When infantry swarm is one of the oldest dick move armies in the game, created solely to make people quit by taking so long for every turn, not really.

I might enjoy an all light company loaded with infernos and commanded by a Firestarter having to ferret out a bunch of dudes in a city fight though. Add a few gun trailers, field guns, and booby traps to make it interesting and extra dangerous.

>nuclear Urbies
As in urbies that fire nukes? Which variant is that?

Urbanmech UM-AIV. It's got enough tonnage for 2 shots of Davy Crockett.

>and the point-balancing system was added well afterwards to give a VENEER of tourney-balancing ability, but it was never intended to be played that way "officially".
I was always under the impression that BV was intended as a method of judging whether an engagement was lopsided since, fluffy or not, playing a game where there isn't even the slimmest chance of winning isn't fun. Obviously the system isn't perfect, but it helps considerably.

Fun fact. The OG Fireball is cheaper than regular bugs. Just wish you could load infernos in that Streak 2 like the old days.

>When infantry swarm is one of the oldest dick move armies in the game, created solely to make people quit by taking so long for every turn, not really.

What if I move my infantries really really fast?

Eh. It's pretty nice to have spotters that you don't mind losing too much, and a glass cannon light mech is really nice to suicide in to try to get the rear armor killshot on that atlas without risking too many points. Obviously these are not going to be your bread and butter.

When you have ten infantry platoons for the average mech and the average mech unit is a lance, then still no.

It's a real Mech. UM-AIV, created by Pope and NEA expressly to allow Herb to nuke players during a game at GenCon. See pic here:

Leave this to me.

>Battletech ISIS

insha'Allah

>Niche scenarios
>Niche scenarios mentioned

It's almost like you just used more words to say what I said.

>Otherwise, they're scouts and always will be.
That's another thing. It's worth considering that there are tons of things useful in wars that aren't so useful in brawls. A light mech is a good way to have a cheap (relatively), fast asset that can assess the situation, harass supply lines, hunt down enemy irregulars, and keep your ass covered without spending too many c-bills.

Herb is a cranky old fuck, but I miss him. I still don't understand why he was forced out in the first place or why. Shit got done with him around.

Are you suggesting LAMs are a strategic asset? How so?

I'll also suggest that Battletech can certainly be played at an operational or strategic level if desired, and it is sometimes fun to have strategic assets caught in a tactical scenario.

He didn't properly slurp aspie dick.

>They're also good for part of my "Distributed suck" tactic, wherein I take a good number of really lackluster cheap mechs with average pilots, so that no one loss is really all that damaging to my force, and no one unit sticks out to bully.
This is especially effective for mechs kitted out to work at short or long range, like having ATMs or overloading on energy weapons with various ranges. When one gets damaged you can rotate it out to the safer position while an undamaged one moves the risky distance.

What if 1/3 is infantry, 1/3 is transport trucks and trucks that go pew pew, and 1/3 is chevaliers?

Whatveer floats your and your opponent's mutually agreed upon boats.

Those all count as infantry.

Foot Infantry for the first
Motorized Infantry for the second
and Beast Mounted Infantry for the third

I wouldn't call "heavily damaged mech retreating to safer position to keep up fight with less risk" a niche scenario, and spotting is an every game thing if you bring the right units that like spotters.

>I still don't understand why he was forced out in the first place or why.

It was less that he was forced out and more that he was sick of everybody's shit and genuinely close to killing himself.

>in b4 "good"

Our demo agent has been pretty good about showing us stuff on his phone from the private areas of the forums, and Herb was pretty significantly fucked up. He quit his job to to the LD position full-time for Battletech, only to have CGL do shit like "withhold payments" for his work. His wife divorced him because he was working on Battletech too much. He lost his house because CGL didn't pay on time. People were legit sending him mailed death threats, and somebody actually showed up at his house a threatened him. He got doxed and took a bunch of online harrassment, including stuff that cost real money, after one of his Battlechats where he talked about the Davions getting fucked up and the time jump to 3250. His work suffered and there was a kind of mutual decision that he should step down for his own health; he was mad at CGL, CGL was mad at him, he outright the fans, and he was just falling behind on everything having to do with life, so both sides decided to part ways.

Yeah, Herb was grumpy as fuck and probably needed to step back and chill for a bit, and I fundamentally disagree with the way that he handled the overall direction of the franchise, but goddamn some people are complete cunts over things. He didn't help his own cause, but he didn't deserve the treatment he got, from CGL, OR from the fanbase. Nobody who isn't at the level of PharmaBro deserves that kind of shit.

It's also nice to have initiative sinks. More options for movement is always better, and making your opponent move their important shit before you move a good portion of your team is an underappreciated advantage.

Also kicking. The best place for a bugmech to be is one hex away from the biggest nastiest thing on the battlefield.

>genuinely close to killing himself.

Good.

>in b4 "good"

Good.

That fat fuck might well have damned us all to an era of play that's nothing more than 3025 with a new hat on it. It could still come to pass, and if it does, I'm laying it squarely at his hairy cankles.

Herb can go face-fuck a snowblower.