What's wrong with Grey Jedi?

Because it's a setting where objective good and evil exist

Its as bad as Alignments in D&D

Are you implying that the Je'daii and the Grey Jedi are the same thing?
That's WRONG you chucklefuck.
Je'daii were the precursors of the Jedi that practiced balance in the Force, because every slight unbalance would cause violent storms and whatnot on their homeplanet. The practice was an absolute necessity for their survival.

Grey Jedi, on the other hand, were Jedi that did not follow the decrees of the Jedi Order, and who were thus considered not fully on the light side. For an in-depth explanation what was wrong with them, watch this:
youtube.com/watch?v=6EMc_S_vAsk

Now watch the whole thread devolve into moral arguing.
Yes, but the way evil or good is defined is even LESS coherent than in D&D.

It's not actually the issue.

Depends. If you mean grey jedi as in someone who's 50% light 50% dark then nah miss me with that gay shit. There is the Force, and then there is the Dark Side.

If you mean force users (or "light side", whatever) who aren't part of the jedi order then sure, they can work. Jolee Bindo was a "grey jedi" because he rejected the Jedi Order and its code in favour of his own, and he was nowhere near the dark side. The "grey jedi code" is fucking nonsense anyway.

>the jedi are corrupt, stupid and weak, and never get laid

I mean, that's not wrong

>jedi never get laid
Obi-Wan has obviously put his lightsaber into more things than blast doors, if yknow what I'm sayin

Kreia was right.
Kreia was vindicated
Kreia did nothing wrong.

>Je'daii were the precursors of the Jedi that practiced balance in the Force, because every slight unbalance would cause violent storms and whatnot on their homeplanet. The practice was an absolute necessity for their survival.

How is that any different than Sith and Jedi existing and the constant galaxy spanning wars and genocides?

It was in the Republic after the Ruusan Reformation. It was not true, however, for most of the old order's history and neither for the new jedi order in the old EU.
From an in-universe perspective, ye-
Go to bed, Kreia

CRUCIFY YOURSELF

It's kept to one planet

Hm. A thought just occurred to me because of these posts:
Do fuckable droids count? Is it a matter of whether or not they're one of the fully sentient/sapient ones?

...

>Nothing except they really fucked off George Lucas
>EU human-centric Force traditions

Wasn't Qui-Gon a grey Jedi?

Good question. Though I don't necessarily think the jedi order enforced chastity at all, but rather freedom from long-term personal attachment. So yeah you can hit that shit, but you better wear a condom or force choke your lightsaber when you're on the verge and then skip out before breakfast, or you're in deep shit.

There's something really gay about that kind of thinking tho. If you're a space wizard YOU HAVE to be these things. Try to be anything else and you might as well be Hitler

Unless you're a sith and by design you're literally Hitler already

They're 2smart4sides fence sitters who're based on a limited understanding of yin and yang applied to the force.

>Wasn't Qui-Gon a grey Jedi?
Not quite. He was a member of the order and generally stayed in line. If the council had been less forgiving of breaches in dogma, he probably wouldn't have been.

Nah, he was a proponent of The Living Force in a time when The Unified Force was the dominant philosophy amongst Jedi.

Yeah it's either you be A zen goblin who doesn't have a lot of feelings for anything thats not a Jedi but is confusing and nearly alien

A fucking hitler who loves everything and loses themsleves in their emotions and themselves basically the fucking Uchiha clan

Or a bitch who tries to do neither but eventually falls because you decided to do something for or about something close to you. Tough titty

Also if you want balance literally just kill both and be done with it

This thread highlights a lot of why I didn't mind the EU's death.

> basically the fucking Uchiha clan
so who wins, a uchiha clan member or yoda level jedai master?

Two variations of shit:

>If the force runs on a buddhist balance vs. chaos morality axis
The dark side of the force is imbalance stemming from obsession with worldly concerns. The light side is balance and transcends the mortal world. Grey jedi make no fucking sense. You are either balanced/attempting to balance and thus an ideal Jedi or how far you've fallen is measured by how much you have given up on the ideal. People can fall onto an axis, but very few (if anyone) are ideal. The danger of the dark side is that giving up on balance and idealism is a slippery slope. In this light grey jedi are just people who have fallen to the dark side but can't admit it. They reject the ideal state of enlightenment as a worthy goal and admit that some level of worldly concern is necessary and right and while they may not be puppy-kicking villains they are, in their rejection of idealism, morally no better than the bad guys.

>If the force runs on an abrahamic good vs evil morality axis
Good is good and evil is evil. If you're in the good camp you're a good guy and if you're in the bad camp you're a bad guy. What defines who is in what camp may be arbitrary but it is extremely specific. In this moral structure you want to be the in the Good camp because they are Good, and the Evil camp is for the foolish, the greedy, the impure, and all the other sinners who have failed by various metrics to be Good. Grey Jedi still make no fucking sense because why/how would you choose to be neither Good nor Evil? That doesn't even make sense. Whoever doesn't fall into one camp falls into the other by default. You can't be in between. Various religious interpretations may disagree on whether the default is Good or Evil based on by what criterion someone gets admitted into Heaven or is deliberately sent to Hell, but none insinuate that the average unwashed masses who don't do great villainy just sort of end up in the middle going nowhere.

Luke was originally closer to what a "grey jedi" should be. In the original trilogy he didn't really adhere to the rules of the jedi order as he used his feelings more than once in combat, and often let them guide him. The big thing was that Luke did not let his feelings control him like the Sith do; he didn't repress them like the jedi of the prequels did either.

Like we've said; a grey jedi is a nominally good force user who stands outside of the Jedi Order and its code for some reason or another. Luke went on to found the order again, but according to his own principles. (I still haven't seen the Last Jedi so I dunno what they did with him).

>*Kamuis behind you*
> Amaterasu*

heh
Nothing personeel Kid

They're based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the force. It's an attempt to find balance between two sides without realising that actually the Jedi are about balance and the dark side about imbalance.

It's a middle ground between binary states, there's no place between balance and imbalance, you're balanced until you're imbalanced and vise versa.

Grey Jedi are essentially an exercise in intellectual dwarfism all for the purpose of playing an edgy good guy with bad guy magic spells.

Basically "I just a side so I'm better than you who said fuck us."

I

>I still haven't seen the Last Jedi so I dunno what they did with him
I'm a child murderer. Like my father before me.

This.

This post is so correct that the only way for this thread to continue to exist is for people to ignore it and argue against weaker statements.

What the fuck happened to my post

Basically they're wrong to make people who chose a side feel better about their fee fees

jvhcgzhtrymtyfugh

So basically if I go Dark Side I'm automatically evil because dark == evil? There's simply no way I can use those powers for good?

Also, apparently 'bringing balance to the Force' means anything the Jedi want, as long as the number of living Sith is zero.

I'll be honest, I actually have very little clue about how the canon actually treats the Force now. Every time I consume anything Star Wars related, I always bring my own interpretation to it, based on EU shit. The Force is one big thing, and does not inherently have a Light or Dark side. Both the Jedi and the Sith hold to extremes, with the Jedi believing that the complete suppression of the Dark side is what leads to balance, and with the Sith allowing themselves to be consumed by the quick and easy power, which they have to throw their emotions at to fuel and harness, which leads to a 'fuel on the fire', 'better a little fire that warms than a big fire that burns' situation.

So in this vein, the Gray Jedi would be the ones who realize this, and strive for balance, tempering their emotions and passion with restraint and patience. The Jedi aren't all wrong, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Ergo, the fall of the Order and the Galaxy being under some kind of Rule of Two shit with Vader and the Emperor.

tl;dr the Force is neutral and any 'sides' to it come from within an individual.

Which leads to two problems with Gray Jedi that I see in this interpretation.

>They're basically 100% fucking right, balance in the Force comes from both sides being in harmony
>Oh look at them they're special snowflakes who can wield ALL of the Force, wooow

By using dark powers you're manipulating the force to do shit it's not supposed to and in turn it fucks you up it's why every sith is malformed and has those orange-yellow eyes

I don't get why people are so assmad over Luke having a moment of weakness when the entire second half of Empire and most of Return exists.

>Implying that isn't what Anikan being the chosen one meant
No matter how you look at it the Jedi were pushing things far more towards he light, the force rebalanced it and one side took advantage to gain a slight upper hand but got out played in the long run.

because sw fags dont accept any cherecter development aside from what happened in the original trilogy

>So basically if I go Dark Side I'm automatically evil because dark == evil? There's simply no way I can use those powers for good?

Yes, you're fundamentally fucking up the force with your bad vibes and bringing disharmony to the universe.

>Also, apparently 'bringing balance to the Force' means anything the Jedi want, as long as the number of living Sith is zero.

The Sith and public enemy number one with all the imbalance they bring.

Because he was young then, barely an adult. This is a guy who went out of his way to redeem a man that the entire galaxy would be glad was dead, a man who's orders have likely killed hundreds of millions

His nephew's hormones are acting up and suddenly he resorts to murder instead of just talking it out

Using the Force of Life to directly violate and torture people, unnaturally extend your life and twist people to your pleasure is evil, yes.
And the late Republic Jedi were already way off path, as evident by their hubris and being blinded by fear.

Because he overcame the dark side in a worse situation already, and an older, wiser Luke shouldn't be acting like a creep.

Theres no such thing as in balance with chaos and harmony. Because balance is subjective. I just sounds like some painfull coldsteel OC who wants to be part of both.

But that's not balance. The "light side" isn't a thing; it's the default state of the force. The imbalance is caused by the existence of the sith, with the Dark Side being a corruption of the force, like a cancer. The jedi's issues were related to their own interpretation of the Force and the dogma of their fallible order.

Though I wouldn't put it past the new trilogy to make the light side a literal thing that needs to be balanced up with the dark side, something the original explicitly opposed.

>His nephew's hormones are acting up
Ren was allredy influenced by the darks side, and he was extreamly powerful, luke was probobly afreid he would become the new vader

So the dark side is essentially shitting in the swimming pool and Sith are serial shitters?

Luke is the ideal jedi. He has none of the hubris and dogma of the old order. He defies Yoda and Obi Wan, who already were among the most progressive and wise masters of the old order by going to fight Vader and save his friends; then later again by attempting to pull Vader to the light side instead of killing him.
Luke is not a slave to the force like the selfless automaton jedi of the old order, nor like the powerhungry sith. He doesn't seek balance, or good, or evil.

Luke uses the Force for his own personal goals, which happen to be completely selfless and which align with the "will of the Force" as a whole. That's why he's the most powerful Force user that the Galaxy ever saw.

Yes

Luke didn't even kill Vader you knob. Infact he rejected even attempting to kill the Emperor by casting his lightsaber aside.

He just foresaw the little shit being literally worse than Vader and it took him a hot second to get over it and pull back. Did you see the movie or got it all from /tv/ shitposting? Because the movie has some fucking problems and Luke being tempted for less than a second isn't one.

All I see is "the Force is this, this, and this, and you're using it wrong" as if there was a comprehensible manual about it.

I'm in an Edge of the Empire game right now and my character is going to eventually become a kind of 'Grey Sith'.

That is, find the teachings of some ancient heretic Sith who thought the mainline Sith order had lost his way and wanted to get back to being about personal agency and freedom rather than being a bunch of enslaving cackling maniacal shitbags.

This leads my character to eventually become basically a chaotic good Sith, inspired by my old playthrough of The Old Republic where I played a Sith warrior and made the 100% good-aligned moral decisions.

A sometimes ruthless badass willing to employ violence when needed and certainly enjoying power and battle, but also having an ironclad code of honor which made him abhor pointless violence or cruelty.

Exactly.

There's nothing wrong with an objective right existing

Especially when the shit from both sides Canonically fuck everything up on repeat

i know that, but it still could happen, luke then was a idealistic young man who still belived in the "light side" stuff, in TLJ he was a cynical old man who allredy doubted the truth of the jedai order when he took on new students and was extreamly afreid of making the same mistakes they did. Kylo, when he meet with the dark side had no problem with just going "gimmie some of dat"

I saw it, it means that all that happened to Luke was that he went backwards as a Jedi.
Unless you're a sociopath you probably don't contemplate killing a defenceless man at all.

And I forgot I made that post originally asking for tips on how to play him, oops.

I did see the movie, he saw a vision so fucking what. Was Ben so much of a shithead before luke saw that he figured "Eh, I'll just kill a boy in his sleep" and then, with the weapon drawn figures "Nah, nevermind, that's not the jedi way"

No nigger, the jedi way isn't thinking of murdering children in the first place

POO IN POOL
DESIGNATED SHITTING FORCE

It's not so much that it's wrong that it is kind of obnoxious and doesn't leave much room for the Jedi and the Sith to be right in the grand scheme of things, with their interpretations.

>Luke having a moment of weakness
>hey why did Luke do something out of character? His matured ROTJ self managed to resist the urge to attack the emperor for a long time even as he was watching the rebel fleet get fucked by the death star
>lol moment of weakness

Every dark user ends up a malformed mess of a being who eats babies, that's all there is to it

And Grey Jedi have anal leakage.

True I should have explained better and I apologize, the force when referring to the light is balanced, but the Jedi were pushing towards what they saw as the light side without it actually being so. Thus a chosen one came about to reset the true balance but the dark side used it to gain the upper hand.

>No nigger, the jedi way isn't thinking of murdering children in the first place
But taking children from their homes at a very young age, indoctrinating them, and then training them to be child soldiers in a militarized organization is A-OK!

Yeah, as long as you aren't emotional about it.

So the Jedi way is 'just let genocidal tyrants rise'?

And that's why Luke changes all this in the EU

TOO BAD THATS NOT CANON ANYMORE

Kreia wasn't trying to encourage the player to be Dark Side or Grey. She actively dislikes neutral characters because they don't pick a side, and "Apathy is death."

Her goal was to try to convince the Exile to think for themselves. Not just blindly pick options to farm Light or Dark Side points, but to pick the option that's correct in the moment. Additionally, she wanted to persuade them to hold themselves over any belief system, because she believed belief systems prevented people from doing the thing they think is right when they hold the belief over themselves. The clearest example is how, in the first game, you can convince Zaalbar to do something completely evil and counter to who he is as a person (killing Mission, the person he cares most about in the world) because he has a life debt to you. If he didn't hang onto the belief system, even if the system itself is born from good intentions, he would have done the right thing both for himself and the world at large. Kreia hates both the Jedi and the Sith because she fundamentally disagrees with what they stand for, but she also hates people that try to sit on the fence because that doesn't accomplish anything.

The best way to do it is to be an Exile that's disillusioned with the Jedi and their belief system, but is still fundamentally a good person that is clearly on the Light Side. It works in the story and it works for the universe of Star Wars as a hole, because the first six movies talk a lot about how, while the Jedi meant well and were good, they were ultimately ineffectual. Luke only succeeded because he ignored the advice of his two Jedi mentors and tried to do the right thing despite what the belief system told him, and thus he redeemed his father.

Grey Jedis are just cocks that want to be edgy and cool without the stigma of being a Sith.

Count Dooku doesn't. Asajj Ventress doesn't. Lana Beniko doesn't.

>luke was probobly afreid he would become the new vader
So he became someone who still had good in him and Luke successfully redeemed? Even if he fully became Vader 2.0, Luke should see that as an opportunity to redeem and save. If “He MIGHT become Vader” is enough reason to bring out the lightsaber, even if he regrets it, then I’m wondering why he spared Vader before.

The Luke Skywalker way would be “I still feel the good in you” and try to redeem him.

That's certainly Luke's way in the ST.
>Give up trying to redeem people
>Try and kill people in their sleep
>Don't deal with the resultant fallout

>Being any form of sith

I see you're choosing to be Mussolini instead of Hitler

Or you know try and persuade them to not be that in the first place, because that's the right thing to do in the first place. Not just murder someone because of what they may become.

Excellent post

starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Padawan_Massacre

I love this story

>shit on belief systems
>has herself a belief system

Funny how things turn out.

>Grey Jedis are just cocks that want to be edgy and cool without the stigma of being a Sith.

I'd say they're just bad Jedi. Not evil, just bad at being Jedi.

There is another problem that hasn't really been brought up too much about the Grey Jedi, their role as a religious sect.

The Jedi and the Sith are both religions which adhere to a certain code of ethics. Remember, the Sith used to do shit like alchemy and the genetic mutation of wildlife to make super beasts. While the Jedi never made force imbued artifacts, the fact that the Sith are a cult and the Jedi are a "religion" is the point where much of the issue rises.

Characters like the Nightsisters of Dathomir, or the the Dagoyan Order of Bardotta present alternative observations of the Force, but are structured none the less. This is the kind of role "Grey" Jedi would ideally fill, but their decision not to be participant in the Jedi religion means they are not Jedi at all, just potentially good willed force sensitives.

If a group who straddled the line of the force, fluctuating between balance and imbalance or good and evil exist, while their moral principles may have a sense of good faith, they would be essentially like the Nightsisters, who are not Sith, but manipulate the force for similar motivations.

Not to drag on too long, but this also brings up the question of the "New Generation" of force users we are being asked to accept in the films. Rey and Kylo Ren are both driven by very emotional and moral sensibilities. Rey may in the end act in a way similar to the Jedi, but from a religious perspective she is not formally one. Similarly we see Ren lacks certain key marks of the sith cult (starburst eyes for example), but further Snoke is not a Sith lord and is not cultivating Ren to be a Sith, only a dark side user as it makes Ren more useful to him. (Albeit there are many important parallels between Ren's path and that of a standard Sith apprentice)

Yeah, exactly. Luke's status as a "grey jedi" is more related to his refusal to adhere to the hardline tenets of the old order. He's not less of a good man because of it, but in the eyes of the old order he is a renegade. It's more a question of dogma than a BioWare-style dark-light slider.

Right, I get you. The old jedi order was complacent and stagnant. Like a pond without any outlets or inlets; it becomes a bog eventually.

but he never did it, he had a second of weekens, it was stupid to take out his lightsaber but at the same time he did not even attempt to hurt kylo, even in TLJ kylo struk first, and let's be fair, if luke wanted to kill kylo when he woke up, he would have done that, even at (what i assume) is full pottential luke could probobly kill kylo easily

He was a child yearning for a father he never knew

>Light is just positive emotions
>Light make you heroic but it's hard to use
>Darkness is just negative emotions
>Darkness makes you crazy and erodes your soul but using it is easy

Tfw you would honestly prefer using kingdom hearts light/dark

Is pulling out a weapon Luke’s primary method of aiding people? This is the guy who had his lightsaber off for most of his fight with Darth Vader on the second Death Star.

It's the classic good magic vs bad magic dichotomy. Wizard vs Warlock etc. You make a bargain, literal or not, for greater power.

>you're a superhuman with insane mind powers, but I just took your sword off! I win!
Is this bitch serious?

>Luke only succeeded because he ignored the advice of his two Jedi mentors and tried to do the right thing despite what the belief system told him, and thus he redeemed his father.

Good thing Disney fixed that real quick :^)

I think he just gets his neck snapped by vader without using the force, don't remember

She doesn't shit on having belief systems, she shits on holding them above oneself. When you elevate an ideal above yourself, you're likely to also elevate that ideal over other people, since most individuals can't help but be inherently selfish. Whether or not the ideal is good or bad, Kreia is trying to teach you to think about your decisions beyond what your dogma tells you to do.

i.e. if a Jedi has to break the Jedi Code in order to save a handful of lives, they should do it because it's the right thing to do. If they don't, then they've failed themselves and the people they could have rescued.

He was number 1