Welcome to the Old School Renaissance general thread. Here we discuss older editions of Dungeons and Dragons such as OD&D, Basic, and AD&D, as well as newer games mechanically compatible with these.
>Trove:
pastebin.com
>Tools & Resources:
pastebin.com
>Old School Blogs:
pastebin.com
>Previous thread:
Thread Question: did you ever actually play a high-level OSR campaign?
What would you call a "trained small-f fighter", as Skerples called it in the last thread?
>In Combat: two or three are equal to a trained fighter.
Is a trained fighter a first-level Fighter, e.g. a Veteran?
Is a trained fighter a zeroth-level Normal Man with a sword, e.g. 99% of mercs in classic games?
Is a trained fighter a name-level Fighter (or a Hero or Superhero or whatever arbitrary higher level you want to set)?
Personally I tend to go for #2, which makes the statblock posted kind of problematic.That's, like, kobold tier.
>did you ever actually play a high-level OSR campaign?
Kind of. I once tried running White Plume Mountain as a one-shot, having the players roll up level ~8 (does that even count as high-level..?) characters. It was alright, but the spontaneous access to all these spells and HP kind of took away the fun of having to deal with little resources as you have in low-level play.
"Oh that was a nice book," and then it goes on your shelf forever.
Which one was it?
Anyone have any good advice on how to appropriate power levels of invented or spontaneously casted spells, roughly equal to spell level or HP costs?
And yes, I already know about Whitehack. I'm trying to figure out how to determine a scale or guideline for how expensive a spell should actually be.
Whatever percentage of your max spell power it would take to cast that spell, it takes that percentage of your max HP. Round up or down to taste, as some systems have level two spells that are less powerful than two level one spells and some the other way around. You'd have to recalculate this every level, but...it seems like it'd work. It scales with level, because you get more "total spell power," but you can't cheat it or be cheated with a few bad hp rolls. It also makes magic drained hp a little more mystical, since it's fractional rather than a flat number.
Cavegirl's blog has a pretty neat post on spontaneous magic.
cavegirlgames.blogspot.co.nz
I didn't want to add "no blogposts" because I'm sure there's a few that I've missed, but I have read 3-4 posts on spontaneous magic that I didn't like. Especially that one, which is pretty terrible.
Freeform magic is a terrible idea, it follows that all material related to it would be terrible as well. You're asking to see turds then getting butthurt when someone directs you to a public bathroom.
>did you ever actually play a high-level OSR campaign?
No, I only play 5e.
I really want to play, but I would have to DM (a thing I never did in my life).
The standard thing with "compare with other similar spells" won't cut it, I guess.
Well, lessee. Let's look at OD&D Magic-User's offensive combat spells since everything eventually builds off the powerlevel of that level 1-6 list. (Things get screwy at levels above that, since level 6 already includes fairly godlike things and then you add three levels more.)
>Level 1
The only combat spells are Protection from Evil, Charm Person, and Sleep.
The first is limited to protecting from evil creatures and only works on the magic-user, the second only works on a single man-sized critter - effectively "max 2HD". Sleep's famously powerful, but allows a save in the LBBs (presumably later changed to speed up play), rapidly loses effectiveness against higher-HD opponents, is is extremely random.
If you have to extrapolate from other rules (as you often do in OD&D), the rules for attacking sleeping dragons somewhat indicate that all you get is +2 to hit and a free melee round. This feels slightly more balanced than AD&D's "slain automatically at a rate of 1 per slayer per round", but go with whatever you want.
>Level 2
Phantasmal Forces, mainly. In the tradition of Chainmail, this is basically a somewhat limited summoning spell: you can create one creature, whatever you want, but it vanishes instantly on an AC9 hit, the damage it does is only real if it's not seen through, and the caster needs to concentrate. A really powerful spell, no doubt (duplicate a dragon, gg no re), but completely negated by simple countermeasures.
>Level 3
Hold Person is a short-duration Mass Charm Person, alternatively Charm Person +2.
Fire Ball and Lightning Bolt do LVLd6 damage in a large area at range.
>Level 4
Polymorph Others is a single-target save-or-lose, Wall of Fire/Ice are temporary battlefield control, Charm Monster is Person without limiters, Confusion is random battlefield control that's much less reliable against higher-level foes.
It's worth a try, perhaps?
>Level 5
Hold Monster is Person without limiters. Transmute Rock to Mud is long-lasting AoE battlefield control. Wall of Stone/Iron are permanent battlefield control, Magic Jar is kind of a save-or-lose but carries heavy drawbacks, Cloudkill is AoE mob clearing, Feeblemind only works against M-Us but is a hard save-or-lose.
>Level 6
Flesh to Stone is single-target save-or-lose, Death Spell kills creatures with 7-HD, Geas is a tricky save-or-lose that requires clever wording (e.g. "leave this dungeon" doesn't mean they can't kill you first), Disintegrate is single-target Save-or-Die.
So what can we glean from this initial balance?
Well, for starters, direct damage isn't really a thing outside level 3.
Upgraded spells with less limiters or more power are higher level (Hold is two levels above Charm, Monster is 2-3 levels above Person).
Outright death effects don't show up until 5th level, and don't work on equal-level foes until 6th (and even then just on one).
AoE debuffs are worse than single-target in some aspect - less duration for Hold Person/Monster, hit dice limits for Cloudkill and Death Spell.
Explicit save-or-lose effects are generally single-target except against low-HD critters: Polymorph Others, Flesh to Stone, Magic Jar, Feeblemind. The one exception is Hold Person/Monster, which still presents the problem of having to get rid of them before the duration is up.
Low hit dice for Sleep is "less than 4HDish" (it scales weirdly), for fifth-level spells it's 5HD, and for 6th-level spells its 7HD.
There's probably some more things you can glean from it, but it's worth remembering that a lot of this was probably just eyeballed and worked out alright in playtesting. (Or not quite in some cases - see Sleep getting various changes, for instance, and Phantasmal Forces eventually just turned into an illusion-generating spell I think?)
How is Holmes Basic? Does anyone here play it? The pdf on the Trove has a really shitty quality, is there any better pdf out there?
Holmes is weird. It exists in this nebulous area where it was supposed to be an introduction to OD&D, then it became an introduction to AD&D, and then AD&D turned out completely differently.
Also, some rules got fucked up in editing - primarily the one where daggers hit twice a round and two-handers once every other round, with no other mechanical difference.
Don't forget that the Basic D&D line was only continued to provide Arneson with royalties.
Just saw Holmes for ~U$ 20,00, might actually buy it
>it was supposed to be an introduction to OD&D
How different it is from OD&D?
>it became an introduction to AD&D, and then AD&D turned out completely differently
I thought AD&D was an evolution of OD&D
Arneson truly saved D&D
>How different it is from OD&D?
Basic mechanics are mostly the same, albeit as a weird LBB+Greyhawk level 1-3 game. Standout differences include having initiative be by order of dexterity, the whole dagger/two-hander thing I mentioned, and how it uses The Strategic Review #5's five-point alignment system.
>might actually buy it
Read through the PDF first.
>I thought AD&D was an evolution of OD&D
That changed a lot, yes. Initiative is die-based, there's nine alignments, fighters got higher hit dice, attribute scores got a massive rehaul, being naked is AC10...
It's extremely telling when you look at the monster manual, a.k.a. the Secret Holmes Supplement, and look at how no monsters is Neutral Evil, Neutral Good, Chaotic Neutral, or Lawful Neutral. The closest you get is some few being Neutral (evil).
Also, of course, all the unarmored fuckers with AC9. And IIRC it's Yeenoghu who has the tail that strikes with 18 Dexterity, and the Brownie moves with 18 DEX as well.
>I thought AD&D was an evolution of OD&D
B/X is also an evolution of OD&D
>Read through the PDF first.
Doing it right now, but the pdf is terrible
>Secret Holmes Supplement
Do you mean the Holmes Companion? That's actually a Retroclone
>Do you mean the Holmes Companion? That's actually a Retroclone
So, I mean that the Monster Manual is somewhat more compatible with Holmes than it is with the rest of AD&D on account of predating changes that took place in the writing of the PHB.
Hence the semi-serious joke that the Monster Manual is a secret Holmes supplement.
>running first session of MF for my usual 5e group
>one of the players manages to roll Gamma Eyes with Class 10 radiation
It was wild, but it was great fun. Players had a good time.
Would it be safe to say that each spell level, in terms of pure damage, can do up to 1d6 per spell level?
While technically Magic Missile only does 1d4 at spell level 1 it doesn't allow for a save.
>Would it be safe to say that each spell level, in terms of pure damage, can do up to 1d6 per spell level?
As a houserule or freeform magic guideline that's probably decent, but it's definitely not the case for actual spells. Since, you know, Fireball starts at 5d6 and scales to infinity.
Speaking of freeform magic, I suppose the 3.5e Psionics system provides a nice framework in how it forces scaling spells to cost extra power points. It avoids the old problem of having infinite 20d6 fireballs that some spell point systems have.
Question for DMs
When your players are engaged in melee with a group of enemies, and the opposing party fails their morale check how do you handle their retreat? Do you wait until the next round or until the current round is finished to get them to run away. Also do you allow free attacks when the opposing party drops their defenses and runs away?
Free attacks for any fighters in the party engaged with the enemy when they flee. I wait until the current round is finished to manage the retreat.
I Have all the old D&D art books
The Worlds of TSR
The Art of AD&D
The Art of D&D
The Art of Dragon Magazine
The Art of Dragonlance
I also have a 1980 squadron Signal book called Down in the Dungeon I highly recommend to lovers of OS fantasy Art.
I’m open to suggestions. Love the pre 1990 art.
Mutant Future is so cool. I really wish is didn't use DAC and that it had a bigger fanbase.
You checked out MCC yet? It's pretty badass, if not a little disappointing too. I really dig it's mutations, but I think If i were gonna run a post-apoc campaign with it I'd mash it with the Umerican Survival Guide's classes. I prefer more of a Fallout/Thunderdome vibe over the Hothouse/Daybreak kind of apocalypse.
>be raggi
>remove fire ball
>make magic missile fire ball instead
>A missile of magical energy shoots forth from the caster’s fingertip and strikes its target, dealing damage equal to 1d4 per level of the caster (so a second level Magic-User deals 2d4 points of damage). The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in mêlée combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature cannot be singled out. The caster can throw the full force of the missile at a single target, but if the caster is 2nd level or higher, he can choose to divide the dice of damage between targets as he wishes. Dice must be assigned to targets before any damage is rolled, and targets of these divided dice are allowed a saving throw versus Magic, with success meaning that the target takes half damage.
vs
>A magic missile is a glowing arrow, created and shot by magic, which does 2-7 (Id6+1) points of damage to any creature it strikes. It will automatically hit any visible target. For every 5 levels the caster has gained, he or she may shoot two more missiles when casting the spell. EXAMPLE: a 6th level magic-user may cast three missiles. These may be shot at one target, or the caster may choose to cast the missiles at different targets.
So this is not strictly OSR (or even Veeky Forums), but...
Does anybody have the goddamned Dragonlance Chronicles trilogy in PDF form? I can't seem to find it anywhere
I'm not sure what you're getting at. If it is about the damage, Magic Missile did 1d6+1 in B/X.
>I'm ignoring the first three lines of greentext and talking about something unrelated
The top one is the LotFP one. One missile per caster level, which is a sizable power increase, but not even on the level of fireball IMO.
For a sixth level MU, a fireball does 6d6 damage to everything in the area of effect. Raggi's upgraded MM will have that sixth level MU doing 6d4 to one target, or 1d4 to six targets.
I converted the DAC over to ascending and figured out what each player/monster's "base attack bonus" would be at each level/HD. It wasn't super complicated. Converting AC follows a simple formula:
19 - Old AC = New AC
I'll see if I can find the BAB tables I made for level/HD and post those as well.
I've heard about MCC, but I haven't checked it out yet. You've piqued my interest
I think an important thing to always remember when using LotFP as a reference is that the dude tweaked his game to have some pretty great power shifts. Which I love. And all of which ultimately do not matter if you run the type of adventures he proposes.
>A 1st level Specialist can Sneak Attack at x5 damage. With this, a dagger can do 20 points of damage, a shortsword 30. At level 1.
>Wizards can use Greatswords with d10 damage.
>FFS a Fighter's to-hit is like +7 at level 6!
>MCC:
/#F!BR8AjC6B!Zqz5MxuHPGLNu-rLDTm29g
Umerica/CuaBM:
/#F!gUUxkADI!a67nV3J9dSm7H1JyntdbrA
Super janky, but these are tables I came up with
>Thread Question: did you ever actually play a high-level OSR campaign?
High level play is not following the spirit of OSR.
>building strongholds and gathering armies is not in the spirit of OSR
>>>/pfg/
The rules are there but the spirit is not. Once PCs are doing high level shit and becoming power players within the larger world, they are naturally driven further and further away from the dungeon, which should always be the focus of OSR gaming.
Why would you cut the game in half to retain an invented label to attach to your game?
Because otherwise you might as well play non-OSR stuff, like Reign or Exalted. Look at how 's attempt turned out: high level characters get to ignore the core resource management aspect of OSR gaming.
>then it became an introduction to AD&D, and then AD&D turned out completely differently.
The original manuscript made no mention to AD&D. The names got switched after Holmes submitted it.
Bull. Holmes didn't even list Arneson in the credits. Again, that got switched after he submitted it.
If your players reach high-level through multiple sessions in a campaign, then they've earned the right to be able to ignore those aspects. You as a DM need to figure out other challenges aside from resources.
I’m trying to expand the Retroclone page on 1d4chan, so I have a question.
What editions of D&D are the various OSR games in the trove closest to?
I agree with you user, but what you're talking about is the game going away from dungeon crawling. Domain management is totally part of OSR (and honestly the games that do it best are OSR). You go from managing your rations and torches to managing your troops and strongholds.
>OD&D
Swords & Wizardry: White Box
White Box
Beyond the Wall
>B/X
Labyrinth Lord
Basic Fantasy RPG
Lamentations of the Flame Princess
Crypts & Things
Wolfpacks & the Winter Snow
>AD&D
LL Advanced Edition Companion
Swords & Wizardry: Complete
ACKS
OSRIC
>Rules Cyclopedia
Dark Dungeons
>Gamma World
Mutant Future
Then you have things like DCC, the SIne Nomine games or The Black Hack that clearly draw inspiration from B/X but do their own thing.
>What editions of D&D are the various OSR games in the trove closest to?
taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com
Someone in the pdf share thread was collecting rpg/serialized novels. Might be in there.
>Bull. Holmes didn't even list Arneson in the credits. Again, that got switched after he submitted it.
Basic was created to introduce OD&D (and later AD&D, via editors); it was continued, with Moldvay et. al., because they needed to for legal reasons.
AD&D was a completely unrelated game that had nothing to do with Arneson, no sirree, and here's the continued D&D game line to prove it.
>Then you have things like DCC, the SIne Nomine games or The Black Hack that clearly draw inspiration from B/X but do their own thing.
The Trove also has Dungeon World and Torchbearer sequestered off into their own little not-OSR-but-sorta-related folder, and those are... I dunno, in the same bucket probably? Dungeon World clearly draws more inspiration from AD&D 2E, though, while Torchbearer goes hardcore on that Moldvay/OD&D logistical dungeoncrawl thing.
And neither is particularly OSR beyond clearly drawing from the same well.
>Swords & Wizardry: Complete
To my understanding, all the Swords & Wizardries are OD&D. White Box is just the little brown books. Core is OD&D with the Greyhawk supplement (which is also what Basic D&D is a development of). Complete is OD&D with the kitchen sink (which is also what AD&D is a development of).
What's yer favorite character sheet? Show me some cool ones.
Just found this form-fillable sheet for LotFP the other day. I still think I like the Last Gasp one a bit more but this one is badass.
And the print version.
Hey fa/tg/uys I need the discord for OSR. I'm feeling like playing today.
How are we definining high-level here? Traditionally as a name level campaign, or just a campaign where your characters are the biggest badasses around and can almost be assured they're not going to meet anyone bigger?
I haven't really played in any level 10+ campaign, but I've played in a long-running LotFP -style magical medieval Europe campaign where more or less everyone is level 1, being even level 2 is extremely notable and anything beyond that makes you a badass.
It's a heavily homebrewed system that makes lower levels more meaningful (people tend to die more or less just as badly in combat, but generally are better at doing stuff outside combat and such, and there's a lot of flexibility), but we've seen some characters manage to get up to level 4-6, and they've been pretty goddamn badass all around.
When most people have 1d6 hit points and most weapons do 1d6 points of damage (universal hit dice and damage dice, except for special circumstances), the man with double-digits HPs and cool tricks up his sleeve is already a minor superhero.
Hey, I'm trying to find some scifi OSR games. I'm pretty sure I've seen at least Hulks & Horrors in the trove in the past, but I can't seem to find it any more. Am I just blind or have they vanished somehow?
Take your pick.
>Runequest and Excel: The Role-Playing Game
Nice.
Under AD&D 2e put "For Gold & Glory".
H&H is free on Drivethrurpg.com, user.
In AD&D 1st edition with regard to weapon length, can an enemy attack before you if you win initiative and attack him with a smaller weapon than the enemey's?
I'd consider a trained fighter to be 1+1 HD npc
>Excel: The Role-Playing Game
Are you referring to Rolemaster? Because I cracked it open and yeah it seemed dense. I got some modules for Middle Earth in it though. Maybe I can salvage something from them.
Arenson got royalties on AD&D.
The very same. I have both the MERP and several RM books from way back, and I have never seen so many, many tables in any other RPG. People who like Rolemaster say that the tables go like second nature after you play enough, but apparently I don't have nearly enough experience because the times I played them, it was like greenhorn Battletech.
I want to make an ongoing setting, /osrg/. Seeing certain maps like pic related gets this weird... feeling... in my head where it mixes my love of numbers and order, with my want for an open sandbox world where I can do whatever I want. I want to make this hexcrawl setting map that I can use throughout campaigns, and even expand if I so feel. I made a hexcrawl map with hand-drawn symbols and just filling in the names myself, and it was the most pleasurable creative experience I'd had in a long time. Now, I used 24 mile hexes, and having read the 6 mile hex article I am rather convinced. So I am considering printing out a second sheet of quarter-inch hexes but I don't know how well I will be able to include details on that. I want to make something I can use campaign after campaign, a world where the borders aren't fully filled in and things are developed, but not blank either, just lots of wilderness. Something where the characters in the first campaign can establish a new barony, and the characters in the next can start as citizens in it, maybe with a timeskip, who knows? I saw a youtube video of a guy who ran a 30 year (IRL years) campaign. I sort of want that. I've run long (5+) year campaigns but in worlds that weren't very good or well developed. I want to make something loose and easy to use that i can use for campaign after campaign.
My question: how to make the map?
if I decide to expand the world, hex-bordering is hard to do seamlessly.
Should I do it on paper or keep that cool hex program another user shared and just print it out from time to time? I hate having it on the computer because I feel like it'd be hard to focus but I could just use it to track the master map and still draw new regions out on paper. Thoughts on this? The reason I originally had a 24 mile hex scale (and I'd like to know opinions on that as well, since it IS divisible by 6) was because I wanted to make the map large enough that the PCs wouldn't conceivably leave area for a while.
Yeah I'll probably never play it. I have a compulsion to buy RPGs, especially old one, but I never run anything but basic D&D. My eyes glaze over and my mind wanders when I read a bunch of rules, perhaps I'm retarded. I'd like to run AD&D because I like Dragonlance so that will probably be next.
>two copies of W20
What did you mean by this?
If you've played the red/blue etc. series of D&D, the jump to AD&D isn't that big. I fully recommend it, especially given that AD&D got a shitload of DL stuff. Get your hands on Tales of the Lance and Monstrous Compendium 4 and you're set for a good long while. Plus there are the old modules as well.
Can I have some good town names for my upcoming B/X campaign?
Thank you
Moldvay.
Littleton
Spitton
Shitsville
I'll admit I'm jealous, especially that you have the Guide to Glorantha
No, he did not. There were lawsuits over it even.
>[Charm Person] only works on a single man-sized critter - effectively "max 2HD"
This isn't correct. Charm works on any humanoid monster Sleep works on -- up to and including ogres. Incidentally one of several pieces of evidence that when OD&D says Fighting-Men get their multiple attacks against "man-type opponents" they mean the same: humanoids of Ogre or lower HD. Not just "less than 1 HD" as later editions have it.
Yes he did. There were lawsuits and all of them came out to Arneson's advantage. Jon Peterson has debunked this "no royalties" thing thoroughly; you can find it in a couple places.
>get Dungeon Crawl Classics and a pre made adventure
>pre made says it's for 8-10 Level 1 Characters
Wot, 8-10? Do players play as more than one character?
Amazing book btw. Only £30 and it's absolutely huge, the art is fantastic.
2.5% royalty fee. Came out to 6 figures all in all.
>8-10 Level 1
Are sure it isn't Level 0?
Nah says 8-10 Level 1
DCC tends to aim itself at big groups for whatever reason. I'd honestly just either bump the PCs up to lv. 2 or tone down some combat rather than have players play two characters.
>You enter a town. It contains:
> 3 cows
> 1 cow herder
> 1 lumberjack (?)
> 1 lady
> 2 guards
> 1 chicken
> a surly man with ludicrous pauldrons
> 1 loafing leprechaun
A) Turn around and leave
Unironically: genius.
No
Yeah I was going to do that, who the hell has 8-10 people in their group, and that isn't an enjoyable number at all.
FOUR chickens, I think you'll find... and there's another 10 NPCs inside the inn, and more in the smithy off-screen! All in all, about 40 people!
It's true, they do. Once you've played a few games you'll be thinking of tables they don't have! Anyway, the system is simple, easy and quick, it's the character building which is slow and complicated... development points every level... all the skills and stats are affected? ...again? Okay, that's what we're doing this week!
Actually there are much better reasons to avoid Goldshire.
I go upstairs in the inn
I bought one POD and when it arrived there was an entire children's book printed in the front of it. So I complained and they sent me another copy. The "defective" copy has everything in it plus a bonus copy of Lonely Lola Ladybug.
I picked that up at PAX when Moon Design still went. Now I just have to learn RQ so that I can actually run it.
This spirit advisor cat must be the best quest giver ever.
Sleep affects up to 4+1 hit dice, with no other qualifications. You could Sleep a horse, for example.
Charm Person is MUCH more specific:
>This spell applies to all two-legged, generally mammalian figures near to or less than man-size, excluding all monster in the "Undead" class but including Sprites, Pixies, Nixies, Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, Hobgoblins and Gnolls.
Note how Ogres are definitely not near to or less than man-size (they're Tolkien's trolls), that Chainmail's Ogres fight on the Fantastic Combat Table, and that the one cryptic reference we got from IIRC Arneson was to look at the Number Appearing: one where the rest of the listed monsters range from 10-100 (Nixie, Pixie) to 40-400 (Kobolds) and the Ogre is down at 3-18!
Remember that your suggestion means that OGRES FIGHT ON TWENTY-TO-ONE SCALE. You can't even encounter twenty ogres in random play!
Also, fuck, just look at the list in TSR#2:
>The regular CHAINMAIL system is for larger actions where man-like types are mainly involved, i.e. kobolds, goblins, dwarves, orcs, elves, men, hobgoblins, etc.
The argument is generally for whether or not you'd add the Gnoll to that list, and whether PCs with a Fighting Capability less than Hero-1 count - but I don't think I've ever seen anyone who argued for adding goddamn OGRES to the list.
I definitely will I'm one of four DMs in my group and another one is running a DL in 3rd edition. I know... I know... but we started it just before getting into OSR. He's run 2nd edition so I'll probably make him run that for me before I tackle it myself.
What is a good and short DCC funnel?
Fuck, I think I remember hearing of that. That was weird as hell, man.
...Actually, I think the one I heard might have been a different POD book that got, like, some conspiracy theory book grafted on?
It reminds me of Werewolf the Apocalypse which is the best WoD game.