Abrahamic Angels and demons are real (Mostly. Some details are different)

Who said shit about beauty? This is about SHEER FUCKING TERROR.

Do you know why every appearance of an angel is preceeded by DO NOT FEAR? Because that has 40 mouths, only two of which are human, 100 eyes, 6 faces, and 3 threes wings. I, personally, would have made a shitty prophet because when that shit shows up, fuck it, I'm ditching this here whole herd of goats to go hide under my bed.

God threatens people with eternal damnation if they eat shellfish, wear clothes made from fixed fibers, or are gay. The devil allows people to be free.

Eh, I'd fuck it.

You'll have to come up with bullshit reasons to make the setting boringly grey.

Alternatively:

Actual promise of power. Demons promise power and that you will be able to dominate and enslave people. You see clearly that they make good on that promise.

Because humans are pretty sinful. Unless the angels are willing to give people wiggle room with their lust and greed and shit, they're probably going to be purging a lot of damned souls. If the angels win most people a fucked, but a few probably end up happy. If the demons win, everyone is probably fucked.

And yeah, higher choirs of angels are pretty crazy to look at. Less "ew gross" than demons and more "what the fuck is that".

Some group of people you hate a lot for some reason (politics, old family feuds, etc) sided with the angels, and your group would rather go to hell than be friendly with them.

The devil is a rebel, and that rhymes.

Heaven would demand worship and adherence to its values in return for salvation and paradise. It's fairly straightforward.

Hell would promise power and to grant wishes in return for your allegiance, beyond what the angels would offer. The question is whether they follow through or if you're just damned eternally.

Some people would probably take the risk.

You'd only do it if you didn't believe in the consequences or in the divine. The concequences being you're going to lose no matter what.

Not all prophets have dealt with that. That being said I did have a dream where two angels were by my bed. One was very tall and had a skull for a head, the other was beautiful, with pale blue skin but had piercing, fearsome red eyes.

They wore pale blue robes with black designs on them. In my dream I was afraid as hell but a day later it wasn't so bad.

Being someone who's religious who has almost exclusively non-religious friends, the two reasons I think could cover a majority of people would be-
>Doesn't understand the Abraham religions and believes all the memes.
or
>Had a lot of shitty experience with religious people when they were young. Would actively oppose it regardless if it was real or not.

I once had a dream where I curled in on myself and became an angel with wings of stone. Ever expanding concrete wings, growing and growing, shifting stone climbing higher into the sky. It was a fever dream and I knew that if I were to wake up and curl into that same position, I would have became the angel with wings of stone. I couldn't though, because I had no energy because fever.

>The rest are terrifying monsters that melt your brain to observe

I despise this meme, God explicitly makes an effort throughout the New Testament to get closer to His children which culminated in him sending His Son to Earth with the intent of knowing His people and bringing them salvation through sacrifice. The Angels of the Old Testament are not the Angels of the New, you'd expect weird shit but nothing resembling the wheels within wheels you're probably thinking of.

Because the angels are dicks.

New Testament was meant to supplant the Old and thus does not really apply to Christians.

Most of the reprehensible shit done in the Bible (and coincidentally, the stuff most people in the West condemn) happens in the Old Testament, and only the Jews are meant to adhere to that stuff.

I think the angels explicitely are, but in both testaments there have been angels who are likened to the sons of man, and angels who are bizzare and eldritch.

In the story of Lot, an angel comes to visit Lot and his family in the form of a man. Being barbarian lunatics, the people of his city decide they want to rape the stranger.

Hell is a meme. "Fire and brimstone" was a metaphor for Gehenna, which represents an eternal death/nothingness. So the devil promises freedom in order to bind you in the afterlife, whereas salvation promises a second eternal life after death. All for a low low price of faith in Jesus and not being a totally shit person.

Why would you not ?

god is the villain. He kills thousands

>In the story of Lot, an angel comes to visit Lot and his family in the form of a man. Being barbarian lunatics, the people of his city decide they want to rape the stranger.
don't forget that lot just shoves his virgin daughters out into the crowd and the angels are cool with it. but looking at god fuck the city with hellfire, that's a saltin'

gehenna was literally a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem

SMT rules my man, I can't sit tight with absolute order or absolute chaos, so may as well go with the guy who (usually) has the world's interests at heart, what with the whole Worldly Spirit thing and all that.

>Ctrl+F "metal"
>0 results
Veeky Forums have you forgotten?

SMT is a middling Japanese RPG that takes Christian mythology because it's cool, I don't think it's viable for what we're discussing here.

Angels will not let you indulge your every whim. Demons will. Some people just want to have fun and not everyone's fun is good.

That's correct. Prior it was also used for child sacrifice by pagans, and during it's time as a garbage dump it was used to get rid of dead bodies. Specifically, the bodies people didn't want to bother burying, like criminals. If you were buried in Gehenna you'd basically be declared worthless, and your body (as well as your soul, some believe) would be destroyed completely. Which is where the metaphor kicks in.

Also, Jesus literally says Gehenna multiple times in reference to the subject in the original texts. Which got translated to Hell in pretty much every version.

i keep hearing this meme but never get examples, aside from maybe the Cherubim, but they just look like a bunch of animals stitched together

>>The devil is a medieval trickster that first appeared in stage plays
Wisdom of Solomon was written in 200-100 BC and yet have Devil in it.
>Lucifer refers to a babylonian king
Lucifer is Latin for Daystar. Isaias poem about Daystar even though is about Babylonian king it have obvious theological significance, especially when compared to Ezekiel's one.
>Satan is literally a title, the officeholder has the job of testing mankind for god
So is Angel. Titles is not nature but existence of title does not destroy nature as whole. Book of Job make it clear that Satan have no divine mandate Calvin.
>none of these are the serpent, who was just a snake.
Snakes do not talk. Read John's revelation. Or early Talmud even.
Ceremonial law is not moral law. And Devil does not believe in freedom of filthy corporals.
It's not a meme. Cherubs are scary as fuck, Seraphs too, not to mention Thrones.
Gehenna was metaphor for Hell.
Ezekiel 1. Fire circles full of eyes.

Your theological game is shit.

The angels offer no immediate reward in life and praise a modest lifestyle, and not just "not rich" but actual poverty
The demons offer mortal pleasures and promise that they can also offer physical immortality if they win (this is a lie, but cannot be readily disproven)

Following the devil is stupid.

>Your theological game is shit.
>It's not a meme.

Explain the three angels who appear to Abraham as men in Genesis then, or the angels who took the form of men in Luke, or the angels who had human forms in John and stood by the tomb of Jesus.

There were angels in the form of men in Acts, and at Sodom and Gomorrah. There were angels in the form of men in Elijah and Judges.

>The LORD appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the entrance of his tent in the heat of the day. He looked up and saw three men standing near him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent entrance to meet them, and bowed down to the ground (Gen 18:1)
>But Mary stood crying outside the tomb. As she cried, she bent over to look into the tomb; and she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had been lying - one at the head and the other at the feet (John 20:11)
>While they were perplexed about this thing, suddenly two men in dazzling clothes stood beside them (Luke 24:4)

God never gave His servants a subhuman form. The Cherubim who defend the Garden of Eden might have been fiery and have wings, but they were a special case.

Angels could feasibly offer far more power. There's a reason most of the time when they appear to mortals the first thing out of their mouths is 'Do not be afraid'. Demons haven't got shit on them, St. Michael kicked Lucifer so hard he dropped through two levels of existence.

Short-term temporal power over other men wouldn't really be a logical goal considering the existence of Angels and Demons would suggest the existence of afterlives may be true too, so you'd have to be aware you're trading the ability to boss some other Humans around for a few decades for your soul being Hell's bitch for eternity.

Ezekiel has your flaming eye wheels, and Genesis has the angels in Sodom putting on their game face when confronted by a rape gang.

Besides that, every time an angel appears to somebody the first thing they say is "be not afraid." There's probably a reason for that.

>fiery
It was a flaming sword that spun, right? I always thought that sounded badass. I would pick that guy for my team, Moses, Jesus, Sampson, and Simon the Sorcerer. Maybe Aaron too as my druid.

Satan was always a weak, detestable wyrm in Medieval literature. Powering him up to be the second mightiest being in Creation is a modern meme perpetuated by the first generation of Europeans who didn't actually give a damn about their religion. This is why Satan works through deceit and manipulation rather than raw splendor and glory, because both were lost to him during the Fall.

>There's probably a reason for that.

The reason isn't because they're flaming eye wheels, see . The reason they always say "do not be afraid" is because a stunningly beautiful human man in dazzling white clothes with a shining face just appeared out of nowhere to give you a divine pep talk. That's going to terrify anybody.

>Gehenna was metaphor for Hell.
The Jews didn't have a concept for hell. Everybody who died went to Sheol. Why would Jesus describe a new concept to people by talking about something they could literally walk to and look at? Gehenna wasn't a place of torment and torture. It was a graveyard. Many out right believed your soul was destroyed if you were burned and buried there. "Do not be afraid of those who can kill the body but not the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can kill both body and soul in Gehenna". Riddle me this, why would Jesus say that those who find salvation in Him be resurrected and have eternal life, as opposed to experiencing a second death? Cause being in hell, you know the one as described by the Romans and not in the original texts, sounds a lot like a second life to me (albeit a really shitty one).

Perhaps the devil is a bit more sympathetic than people let on.

Your Creator (Your Dad) is your best friend, you loyally follow him and hone your abilities to impress him.

You are the best of the angels, and everyone knows it. You don't brag, it's just a fact.

Then all of a sudden, your dad makes these creatures like you but stupider, more aggressive, and that treat your dad like shit. So you tell your dad, and he beats your ass and throws you into eternal fucking torment.

>your dad makes these creatures like you but stupider, more aggressive, and that treat your dad like shit.

The Fall happened before Humanity ate the Fruit of Knowledge, none of those things apply.

>Lucifer refers to a babylonian king

This is the first time I've heard this.

Also sometimes a snake is just a snake.

Simplest answer in the world. The Devil lies and he's damned good at it. Abusing the fact God works in mysterious ways and mankind's flaws, he can easily win over an army of worshipers.

>Abusing the fact God works in mysterious ways and mankind's flaws, he can easily win over an army of worshipers.

You could argue he's already won the modern Western world, as most of us now see cardinal sins as okay or even virtuous acts and the state of religion has never been more dire.

I know it gets said a lot, but it's a damn good quote; the greatest lie ever told by the Devil was that he does not exist.

Also, if you justify the fact everyone would serve God as the logical conclusion of "God is real" and "God is omnipotent", then of course nobody would serve the Devil, because God already won.

For a premise like this to work, God needs to either be non-omnipotent, or actively refuse to use the full extent of his powers, as a test or some other reason. If his powers are limited, then it is extremely likely that Man would doubt His envoys and generals, especially in non-christian areas.

This thread and the Ritalin got me thinking, is there a market for "world" engineers or something similar? Fuckers like us who test a world's internal consistency and come up with solutions?

How do you know who is good and who is evil?

Ask them if they prefer rei or asuka

>For a premise like this to work, God needs to either be non-omnipotent, or actively refuse to use the full extent of his powers, as a test or some other reason. If his powers are limited, then it is extremely likely that Man would doubt His envoys and generals, especially in non-christian areas.

Perhaps God has turned away from the world and the angels are trying to cover it up?

...why should i follow either?

For real, though, in a situation where two celestial bigwigs and their armies are about to throw down, their battleground loses big time. Anyone reasonable would be working on a way to bail before shit hits the fan.

>If his powers are limited, then it is extremely likely that Man would doubt His envoys and generals, especially in non-christian areas.

Why not take the Tolkien approach? God works through providence and predestination - acts so subtle one can't tell it was done by Him, and while following His messages leads to a life of spiritual fulfillment and success, the Devil offers something tangible and immediately gratifying.

>Perhaps God has turned away from the world and the angels are trying to cover it up?

God has only turned away from the world once, and that resulted in the Deluge.

Then his powers are limited, he does not use the full and immediate extent of his omnipotence. Your example is exactly what I meant!

>he does not use the full and immediate extent of his omnipotence

How is it not a full and immediate use of Omnipotence to map out a human's life down to the pebble that gets stuck in your shoe when you're 12 years old?

Yeah, they're called referred to as clergy.

I did not mean power in that sense, I'm sorry. What I thought is: to use the full extent of his power is necessarily grandiose, flashy and obvious. That is why he would win the war instantly, he simply wills it and it is done in a flash.

For him to chart out the life of living beings is not a display of power, but a display of wisdom and intelligence. It is subtle and leads to a more interesting setting.

Contrarians, anarchists, hedonists, atheists (by default), and the ambitious would all serve Demons. Either for power or greed or ignorance. Then there would be people who felt betrayed, like Those who spilt through the cracks, were wronged by clergy, and lost their faith in the divine.

>Then his powers are limited, he does not use the full and immediate extent of his omnipotence. Your example is exactly what I meant!
or he is not benevolent?

>Demonic metal roadies vs Catholic metal werewolves.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=PhiSgXz_l20

Realistically, these are almost certainly just suitably advanced ayyy lmaos fucking with us.

>atheists (by default)
What? If I got proof that Christianity was right no fucking way would I join the side that is guaranteed to lose and fuck me over even if they win.

>atheists (by default)
Someone fell for the "all atheists hate god" meme.

See Those who don't have faith in the LORD are actively unraveling the faith of others around them, knowingly or unknowingly. They are spies of Satan, unbeknownst to all, even themselves. They hold the most terrifying power of all; good intentions.

I always knew, deep down, that moot was the antichrist

>implying i wouldn't align with both an angel and a demon, using each to negate the influence of the other while gaining immense power

>Catholic metal werewolves

>Problem.
They've convinced everyone that gnosticism is legit.

Lucifer means light bearer
we call Venus the day star because it rises just before the sun
Romans referred to it as Lucifer for the same reason

Don't spend time hating a fictional character, but if it were the god, as written in the bible, he's a pretty big dick. Now, if the bible is a slander piece... maybe.

Either way, I'd hardly be an atheist if a proven god showed up, because I don't bend over backwards to overlook or reinterpret hard evidence (consciously, human brains suck at bias etc) so that I can still be right.

If God wins, everything goes back to normal afterwards. If the Devil wins, his followers are rewarded in his new world.

>Problem. Why would you follow the devil?
Some people love routing for the underdog

And we call the devil "lucifer" because of misleading translation, his Hebew name is Heylel, which does indeed mean bright and shining, but also in the sense of being prideful, boastful, foolish anf self-centered. If any biblical figure should bare the title of lucifer, which literally means "light bringer", without any negative connotation, it is Christ himself

Dude. Jesus said many times that resurreccion is for everybody. Sheeps and Goats, final judgment and all fun shit.
And FYI heaven and hell are foremost states of being. That's why Christ said "Kingdom is among you".
Existence of lower angels does not negate existence of higher ones.
But even lower angels were such radiant with glory in their human form that many though that they were God himself.
That's islamic theology and by definition is stupid. Satan fell before there were humans. There is some Franciscan tradition that God showed him and other angels Vigrin Mother and said "Behold your Queen" and Lucy was all like "I WANT TO BE HER, LET ME BE YOUR MOTHER!"
I know. I was referring to the same fact. Vulgate uses lucifer in reference to Christ also.
As Dante put it, Satan is but monkey of God that is nothing but unoriginal fag.

Cult of Gaia endorses Freedom(tm).

>If I got proof that Christianity was right no fucking way would I join the side that is guaranteed to lose and fuck me over even if they win.

So you're not in it for faith and belief in Him, you're only doing it to save your own skin.

Do you really sound like someone other people can trust?

>All for a low low price of faith in Jesus and not being a totally shit person.
Nigga, Jesus basically preached absolute slavery to god, he even compared worshipers of god to slaves dozens of times; and that doesn't end when you finally get to heaven (if even that because apparently heaven is the big boys club and everyone else just gets a separate resurrection), you still have to basically be gods mental bitch thinking about nothing but him 24/7, worse in fact considering that you don't have to eat or sleep.

>you still have to basically be gods mental bitch thinking about nothing but him 24/7, worse in fact considering that you don't have to eat or sleep.

>John 14:2
>There are many homes up there where my Father lives, and I am going to prepare them for your coming. When everything is ready, then I will come and get you, so that you can always be with me where I am.

>Isaiah 65:21
>They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit. No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people; My chosen ones will long enjoy the works of their hands. They will not toil in vain or bear children doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by the Lord, they and their descendants with them

>Nigga, Jesus basically preached absolute slavery to god, he even compared worshipers of god to slaves dozens of times

Are you suggesting it's somehow a bad thing to be the servants and slaves of our Creator?

Why not? You just take the Law and Chaos and roll with it. No need to go further into what SMT features.
God represents order and peace, but on the other hand it is absolute, unyielding, and ruthless.
Lucifer/Satan/Demons/whatever represents struggle, strife, and anarchy, but on the other hand also freedom, individuality, and strength.

What if God is a really, but I mean really, hot woman?

>SMT
>Kicking both side ass
A man of fine culture, I see.

>Are you suggesting it's somehow a bad thing to be slaves
Yes, I'm an American, muh freedom

It's shitty weeb trash and a blasphemous misrepresentation of its source material

From the top of my head, instances in the bible that condradict Isaiah's imagery.

>Moses is almost obliterated by the image of God.
>There will be no marriage in heaven.
>People will be not like men, but like angels in heaven.

it's bad to be a slave period. i'm pretty sure creating a self-aware, intelligent life-form and then enslaving it is prettymuch universally considered to be a dick move.

Better than the source material, you mean.

Exactly what several people have already stated in this thread - the misconception that the Devil can win and that he'd offer freedom to live as hedonistic a lifestyle as you please for eternity. Or, alternatively, as several have also said, people get assmad about the fact that God is very open about the fact that you will be -serving- Him, and for some reason think that's a bad thing (as well as, again, taking the Devil at his word).

Essentially, people are frequently idiots who wouldn't do what's best for themselves even if God Himself sent an angel to explain it. As Jesus pointed in one of His parables, even raising the dead wouldn't convince some people.

>it's bad to be a slave period.
The whole basis of Islam is just that though. In fact, it's implied in all the other Abrahamic religions as well.

Those aren't angels, this is an angel

>blasphemous misrepresentation of its source material
Digital Devil Story is sacred?

Depends on quite a few things. Is there pay involved? Can I start a bidding war? Who has the better benefits? Does Heaven offer Dental Coverage? Will I have to move to work for Lucifer?

You have to give us more information than that, OP.

well what the fuck do you want out of him? some of us just don't believe others at their words alone. some of us ask too many questions and don't get enough answers.
if anything, i'd trust him a lot more than I'd trust you, because "you have to have faith" is a fallacy.

Doing that tends to... uh... well, it has a deleterious effect on humans. Even Moses wasn't allowed to see the full glory of God for the simple reason that it would annihilate him.

>and for some reason think that's a bad thing
Explain how being a slave is a good thing.