/STG/ - Star Trek General

Didn't that female admiral give Jason Issacs shit for conducting eugenics experiments? I can't remember too well, the series is fairly forgettable. I'm not even sure why they're wasting a mirror universe plot this early on either. It'd make more sense to do a better job establishing their characters before going, "Tee-hee, and these are their super wicked alternates!"

"Hell, I bet those fucks don't even torture people for their warp drive!"

This thread is already my favorite. Discovery finally makes total sense.

"We aren't the super evil mirror universe, nor are we the pussy goody-two shoes primary universe. We're like a point five balance universe. More evil than regular Coke with half the ideals! All for a mediocre taste!"

Using medical research and techniques discovered by an external authority's use of unethical methodology is, in and of itself, not unethical.

Make it more direct. Have them need to get materials from a living, breathing and extremely unethical researcher they encounter. Or just make it so they have to kill an alien to get parts/medicine

Or hell, recycle(heh) the vidiian plot. Someone steals a vital organ to stay alive and you have to decide who gets to live.

Discovery is like being excited about your group running a Star Trek campaign set in the main universe right around TOS and in the first session you learn that the ships, the technology, the uniforms, the aliens - all of it is wrong. Then you're introduced to the DMPC who is Spock's foster sister.

The Hippocratic Oath hasn't been part of modern medical thinking for millennia irl, so... nothing much.

"First, do no harm" is bollocks. Medical science today is aimed at doing least harm and involving the patient by giving them, where possible, the information and cognitive tools to make decisions about their own care. You violate the Hippocratic oath every time you take a scalpel to a patient; the kind of medicine that doesn't violate it is the kind of natural-law, god's-law bullshit you hear idiots trying to pass into actual law with tiresome regularity.

The oath is sometimes used as shorthand for medical ethics, but rarely by actual medics unless they think they're talking to idiots.

The problem with Nothing Human is conceptual, unfortunately. I agree it's great drama, but it comes from a very false supposition that Crell Moset could have learned anything useful from the kind of experiments described - Mengele-tier as you put it - which are very much about amusing the senses of the experimenter and very little about science. Repeating the burning of people with acid doesn't tell you anything new about them; even if you dress it up as "necessary" to test healing, it's still unscientific because these aren't lab-ready test subjects, they're just people you grabbed off the street. Human testing irl isn't done until there's been years, even decades of theory, then sample, then lab animal testing, just to get the kinks out of the theory.

No one mind, basically, is so brilliant as Crell Moset is made out to be; bullshit libertarian-like magical thinking about "medical science" shorn of all that tedious science crap doesn't change the fact that he's just a sociopath. In a different career path he'd simply have been another dull Gul floating around in an isopod trying to get people to stimulate his cloacal sheath.

Great dramatically, but only possible in-universe because Starfleet Medical, like so many other branches, are retards.

Pike chairs for errybody! Beep beep motherfucker!

She should have, but only because she didn't Tom Riker the shit out of him and re-create Tuvok and Neelix while retaining a perfect Tuvix copy as well.

>Have them need to get materials from a living, breathing and extremely unethical researcher
Unless said material is sourced unethically and the doctor is aware of that fact then it's not unethical.

>they have to kill an alien to get parts/medicine
There is absolutely zero reason to do that when both replicators and easy cloning exist within the setting.

I seem to recall murdering clones to also be a terrible idea. Besides, the poster is looking for ideas for dilemmas, not contrarianism.

So the VOY ep with space Mengele?

The less they remember about being able to use the transporter to clone people the better. I seem to recall (probably with my ass) that the patterns degrade relatively quickly due to the sheer number of atoms in a single body and the Heisenberg compensator can only compensate for so long.... except for that one time they de-aged Doctor Pulaski.

Then again I hated the time Voyager suddenly decided that future Starfleet only had limited time travel or people go insane, nevermind how often other characters have hopped back and forth with no problems. At least Enterprise wound up ignoring that.

>Someone tells me that Data wasn't going to murder whatshisface at the end of "The Most Toys"
Imagine being the kind of person that, when presented with something up to viewer interpretation, you choose to believe the option which is less interesting, humanizing, and meaningful to character development

Okay, so calling Crell Moset space-Mengele is an oversimplification. Didn't we get useful information out of Unit 731? Didn't we get real advances out of non-Mengele unethical German experimentation? And the Tuskeegee experiments?

That assumes one is using "Mengele" as a literal descriptor and not shorthand for medically unethical. Shortcutting animal research and skipping to human testing would be grossly unethical and would require repeated experiments to work out the efficacy or validity of the research. If you don't give a shit about ethics going directly to human experimentation could cut years off research times for the trade off of increased potential confounds.

Wasn't Tom Rikering someone stated in the episode to be like a one in a trillion chance?

That's the kind of person who works in TV/film as a writer now. Citation: STD's writing staff

>At least Enterprise wound up ignoring that.
VOY time travelers are from 26c and ENT dudes from 30c iirc.

You don't have to clone the whole person. Also it's not contrarianism, it's arguing that the dilemma is a false one.

While it was the random convergence of technology and the unusual conditions of that particular planet, not to mention the actions of the transporter chief in that instance, that doesn't mean it couldn't be duplicated. Similar to using the transporter to treat Pulaski. It had interesting implications and you would think would be the source of intense study by Starfleet, but nope. Or using the transporter to visit other universes. The technology was just changed so people couldn't under normal circumstances unless Smiley is involved.

Not that it's a surprise, of course. The transporter would and should be the ultimate medical device up to and including "resurrecting" people, but it would kill too much of the drama from episodes and would be boring.

Captain Braxton and the Relativity are from the 29th century. Daniels is from the 31st century. Not exactly too much difference, overall, and still seems silly when there are over a half dozen non-insanity inducing (except in viewers) time travel techniques from TOS to VOY.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it simply a limit on the number of times an individual can time travel within a distinct timeline before suffering an increased risk of psychosis?

I want to say it's due to their time displacing teleporter, though DS9 had one of those thanks to chroniton particles from the Romulan cloaking device getting lodged in the ablative armor blah blah yadda yadda.

Temporal psychosis was simply said to be a condition that could be caused by the temporal transporter. Your odds of developing it increased the more times you were pulled from your own timeline with 3+ being considered too risky under normal circumstances.

Interestingly this still effected "versions" of you that hadn't been temporally displaced yet. For instance a version of Seven was in sick bay complaining of problems before she was plucked away by the relativity. She was developing symptoms because one of her had already been recruited by Braxton but had died.

Poor Braxton. They arrested him based on what his future self was going to do and waved it away as, "Don't worry, we'll integrate him with his guilty version before his trial." Damn, that's fucking cold.

Not really, no. Just because you like to skip steps doesn't make you a better scientist, it just makes you a sloppy thinker.

>Didn't we get useful information out of Unit 731?

So little that it qualifies as stopped clock guesswork when you compare it to the overall volume of psychopathy being undertaken as "science".

>Didn't we get real advances out of non-Mengele unethical German experimentation?

No? How do you mean? Do you mean did slave labor in German factories building rocket parts lead to advances scientifically?

Again, in that particular case, no. Rockets were understood a century earlier. The concept of going up in a space capsule wasn't even new at the turn of the century. Putting two very simplistic ideas together isn't hard; it doesn't require a huge slave labor pool to get a rocket into space (as the US rocket program proved).

Medically? What sort of thing do you mean here? Do you have specific examples, or have you just been told it in a general kind of sense?

>And the Tuskeegee experiments?

No. Again, the signs and symptoms of long-term syphilis were fairly well understood - cataloging them gained little to nothing, especially since none of the participants were ever actually treated. They weren't a control group, the data gathered doesn't make a useful control - especially since antibiotics became available during the study which absolutely should have ended any conception that it was scientific to continue the study, let alone ethical. It was an assault upon the defenseless, the very antithesis of the principle of informed consent that underpins modern medicine.

But then we're talking about the nation that gave the world Coca-Cola and Dr Pepper, which but for California banning weed 100 years ago might still today be sold as unregulated, unlabeled cure-alls.

The hypothermia experiments have cited post-WW2 with controversy. The immunization experiments were simply infecting healthy subjects with a disease, providing them with experimental treatments, then either letting them die if the treatment failed or executing them if they survived.

B5 danced up to that plot, then Deus ex Vorlon. (but I repeat myself) fixed it.

>The immunization experiments

That teaches you nothing about long-term effects of immunization, which is the whole point of immunization. It's not enough to say they survived/died, you need 1 year, 5 year, 10 year mortalities, relapses etc.

Bullshit popsci.

>The hypothermia experiments

There's a good write-up of why those experiments were pisspoor science and the data shouldn't be used, here:

nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199005173222006#t=article

The long and the short is that by the 1940s every part of German society was dysfunctional - if you didn't get "results", you were The Enemy; if you didn't understand the scientific method you could simply denounce someone who did (because they didn't get Results) and that would be that. There were no good controls on the populations used, the conditions, the number of exposures - and as the article notes, the fact that in forty years the results were cited a little over once a year on average tends to point to their being useless, before you even get to the casual inclusion (without conclusion) of "are Russians just gud @ cold? due Montag, Fuhrer v. curious".

Bad science or not, our understanding of hypothermia and its treatment advanced significantly further without the citing of those results than the results themselves managed to advance it for Germany before the end of the war.

Besides which, it's not like Germany was even the only nation working on hypothermia - plenty of other countries worked it out just fine without bullshit racist experimentation written up like a bad novel, just plain old trial and error. There's a tendency to do the old ALIENS trick when talking about Nazi experimentation - the idea that all of modern science somehow descends from them, when in fact we only kept the relatively sane ones, who were a very small minority.

I've talked to a psych researchers who had a vague resentment that with a once in history opportunity to do some really good work on brain mapping the Nazis wasted the opportunity with pseudo-science garbage.

Also, this story never mentions Nazis, but that's who he's talking about:

mayofamily.com/RLM/txt_Clarke_Superiority.html

>ywn order a raktajino with a jacarine peel
Why live, friends?

>Not ordering it double strong, double sweet
Pleb taste confirmed.

...

>ruining the raktajino by making it sweeter
Is it too powerful for your human tongue? Perhaps we should bring your mother so you can nurse from her instead!

>drinking Klingon swill
>not starting your day off with a stiff glass of kali-fal
Cloaking at you, to be perfectly honest

That was a pretty good plot. Shame about the ending. One of the problems of tv around that era was the fear of altering the staus quo outside of major planned events by the show-runners.

Which subgroup of Starfleet officers could be seen as the most separate from the main body? Which subgroup or specialisation is the most likely to form their own community within Starfleet?

Easily the Engineering Corps.

I'd go with Starfleet Intelligence or Starfleet Medical.

Prune juice, fool. It is a true warriors drink.

Transporter officers.
Theyare so removed in fact that they couldn't form any cabals.

I don't think it's ever shown on screen, but I always figured that the cohort of dedicated shuttle pilots that larger ships have must be pretty insular, with a possible exception towards engineering. Both the Intrepid and Galaxy class starships have in-built pilot lounges on their deck plans. Presumable, ships like the Sovereign, Akira and Nebula classes have similar provisions, given the size of their shuttle contingent. That isn't even to mention to Starbase compliments.
Given the sort of job they do, I could well see them spending most of their time in or around their craft, generally only interacting with the rest of the crew for official reasons.

Transporter officers make the ultimate spies and assassins. 99% of their time is spent unsupervised, and they have direct access to the entire command crew, and the equipment to "accidentally" disintegrate them.

I like the possibilities of but for people the least removed from the main crew I'd go with those poor jackholes in engineering whose job it is to scrub out the jefferies tubes. Like that theoretical physics guy in Voyager's attempt at their own "lower deck" episode. We're talking about worse than Barclay, who for all his faults was still able to contribute worthwhile plans now and then. This is someone on the Chief Engineer's shitlist or otherwise a social outcast. Even the ensigns look down on them. Even if they wanted to form a cabal nobody would want to be on the same team as them.

That said they probably have managed to form something approaching their own mole man society in the bowels of the ship, though I doubt they can stand even their own kind's company for long.

I actually liked the ending. It showed the untouchable nature of the Vorlons and the O fucks they gave.

Call me a faggot (as are we all, this being 4Chins), but I'll take this chance to shill a halfway decent fic I stumbled across in my quest to find more (canon) stories about John ALL THE NUKES Sheridan:
fanfiction.net/s/6285772/1/The-Circle-Must-be-Broken

"Mole men? Time to de-lice the ship, Number One!"

Has anyone picked up those new TOS and TNG crew pregen sheets Modiphius just put out? How are they, did they capture the characters well?

I looked at the preview PDF. They seemed... fine.

But I noticed that the TNG characters are from the "default" STA era (that is, the year 2371, just before Generations) instead of starting of the show. They seem to be statted as starting characters are, though.

>So the whole plot is that Discovery never makes it home, right?

>"Hell, I bet those fucks don't even torture people for their warp drive!"

Voyager did both of these plot lines.

Is discovery just a rip off of voyager?

It's Voyager but with worse characters and a less coherent narrative. Bet you never thought you'd read that, huh?

>It's Voyager but with worse characters and a less coherent narrative. Bet you never thought you'd read that, huh?

No, I never throught I'd read that.

Some of the episodes of voyager were fun, but some of them were downright cringeworthy....

I take it that Discovery is all of the worst voyager episodes possible?

Pretty much. Except with completely unlikable characters and generally unpleasant writing.

How much "anti white" is in ST:Discovery? is there any?

"anti-white"? What? None? I don't entirely know what you're asking here.

The cast is quite diverse, sure, but anti-white... nope.

>"anti-white"? What? None? I don't entirely know what you're asking here.

Subtle anti-white propaganda, as in, anti-white people.... it's been infecting basically everything lately, I was wondering if there was any of it in ST:Discovery.

>The cast is quite diverse, sure, but anti-white... nope.

okay, that's all I wanted to know.

Zero. The captain, who is a white guy, is probably the most entertaining character, if for no other reason than being a mad cunt.

/pol/, has anyone told you that everytime you open your mouth about what you want to see in media it sounds like you're quoting a Grindr profile?

...

>quoting a Grindr profile

a what?

>Yeah, I know, I'm posting there as well... I like sci fi though, and D&D, AD&D, etc....

And I love reading about WH40k stuff.

I'll post here if I choose, thank you very much.

Infinity lockboxes are back in STO, get ready for content update, possibly next week or early next month.

And we'll give you shit for shoehorning /pol/tardation in here if we choose. Swings both ways, tripfag

New mission? Or just that mystery slot machine for weapon effects?

>And we'll give you shit for shoehorning /pol/tardation in here if we choose. Swings both ways, tripfag

Excuse me, I didn't shoehorn old voyager scripts into a lensflare fest and call it a new star trek series.

You can't make that claim unless you conclusively prove you didn't.

What exactly was the point of that? I feel like any sort of biological purge could have been accomplished much simpler without the needlessly slow wall of doom.

>You can't make that claim unless you conclusively prove you didn't.

are you implying that I'm a script "Writer" for star trek discovery?

Different guy here.
You specifically asked about anti-white propaganda in the show. You got two definitive answers.
Now Trek has always been a lens at which to magnify the current political and societal moods, but that is one aspect that hasn't been forced into the show via a writer/director/producer.
In my opinion though there are a lot of things they've done with the Klingons that share similarities with Arab cultures. This doesn't bother me because "Arab omg so bad terrorists". Rather I don't like the deviation from the already established Klingon culture.

It was to remove build up of harm harmful radiation.

>You specifically asked about anti-white propaganda in the show. You got two definitive answers.

yeah, and I was fine with that.

I don't see what the problem is.

Asking isn't an issue. But /pol/ has a particular reputation of insisting something is what it isn't in order to fit the narrative of what they think. Your question was answered. As long as you can leave it at that there shouldn't be an issue

>As long as you can leave it at that there shouldn't be an issue

I was, but since you keep bringing it up, I feel the need to go full /pol/ on this thread.

I already dropped the damn thing, just let it go and there won't be nothing.

This, if anybody is going to start a bootleg Romulan Ale still in one of the Jeffries Tube nexus points it's going to be the Engineers. More than likely directed by the Chief Engineer.

I haven't gotten to them yet but there are a ton of Starfleet Core of Engineers books. And the Lovell series is about an old decommissioned Daedalus class SCE dug out of a junk yard and turned into a go anywhere do anything engineering ship. They would definitely make their own little clique

Well there's the white Klingon. Apparently his kind are an unclean caste, or some shit? I can't even remember the bastards name since he pretty much dropped out of the series, though based on everything else going on odds are he's getting that surgery to make him human...for some reason that will somehow let him regain power. Feels like instead of using the augment virus from Enterprise they're going to use this as an explanation for human-looking Klingons.

>white
Albino.

Big difference.

In the tubes, did you say?

>Well there's the white Klingon.

Albino or something?

They never really did explain why TOS klingons just had moustaches, while TNG klingons had the wierd foreheads.... I think in DS9 worf said something to the effect of "We don't talk about it with outsiders", I heard talk that it was supposed to be some kind of genetic experimentation or something that went out of control... or... went perfectly well, or something.

>for some reason that will somehow let him regain power.

Political power, yes?

>they're going to use this as an explanation for human-looking Klingons.

You mean the ones from TOS?

LOL!

They did explain it in Enterprise. The Klinks got their hands on augmented human DNA after seeing that squad of Augments tear through entire crew of their men.
The klinks they experimented on lost their ridges. Phlox then had to use the augmented dna to create a cure for a virus to prevent a Klingon battlecruiser from glassing a whole planet. So the cure spread but a bunch of them lost their ridges.

Ah...

>planning for Trek one-shot set post-DS9
>ask players to give character summaries
>captain player wants to take a "Kirk" approach to male-female xeno relations
>XO player wants to be a half-vulcan that can't keep his emotions in check and swears all the time
>chief of security is first andorian in starfleet
>tac officer would've enthusiastically sided with Admiral Leyton in the "Paradise Lost" arc
>science officer is saying he served with Capt. Janeway and admired her unorthodox style in order to excuse him being a bit less ethical than others
>Chief Medical, Chief Engineer, and Counselor PCs have all been the most normal
>Medical's weirdest thing is having some PTSD-related holoaddiction, but that's normal
>Counselor PC is mostly chill is just looking forward to having fun dealing w/ crazy characters
>Chief Engineer has already dubbed the session "the voyage of the damned" and he doesn't even know everyone's character yet

All the PCs described above are taking an Akira-class in a search and rescue op where they eventually have to deal w/ what's essentially the alien from John Carpenter's The Thing.

How fucked are they?
How fucked am I?

>where they eventually have to deal w/ what's essentially the alien from John Carpenter's The Thing.

They are just going to take off and nuke the entire site from orbit with torpedoes....

Jokes on them, it's in the ship already.

They're essentially going to get it onboard after beaming over federation survivors of a ship that tried to self-destruct to kill it on there ship. By the time they realize it's on board it'll have killed at least some NPC.

Even now the evil seed of what you've done germinates within you.
Make sure to bring us storytiem

>Andorian
I'm an idiot, I meant first nausicaan in starfleet.

It was something like an entire Klingon battlefleet, many brave soldiers of the Empire, so even if most Klingons don't look like the TOS version a good deal of the warrior caste Kirk would alter have to deal with would. Made enough sense for me.

I never was a huge Enterprise fan but the last season wasn't too bad when they started digging into how things got to the point of TOS. Exploring the foundations of the Federation and so on.