Does anyone else think that 5e would be a better game if it didn't have to live in D&D's shadow?

The game designers were clearly forced to regress in order to attract the 3.PF crowd who were scared off by 4e.

Have you tried not playing D&D?

oDnD
Get your grog on, my man.

4e.

Even in older editions, magic will generally solve most of your problems if you were allowed to live past 5th level.

In fact, a lot of spells in older editions were straight up busted compared to modern editions of D&D, like how lightning bolt could bounce off walls and dealt damage to any creature that got hit by the ricochet.

>I want to play D&D that isn't like D&D
>also I'll get angry if you mention the D&D that isn't like D&D

Just play 4e, you nerd.

Problem with Wizards in DnD is that they're not heavy in rituals.

Want to fix them? Make it so they can only do blasting spells without sitting down and spending a month in ritual.

>Party can only afford to go on one dungeon raid a year so that the mages have enough time to prepare their spells.
>The ones who are impatient will end up dying to the perils that require magic to progress, which only encourages more people to wait.

>Preping spells
>Same as rituals

You're retarded. Only spells a wizard should have is a variety of blasting spells and minor utility spells. Everything else should be a spell that take a length of time to perform and can't be done in combat.

So now every dungeon raid is something that has to be done maybe once or twice a year so that the mages have enough time to sort their spells out.

What a great idea, I'd rather be in a dungeon killing goblins and shit but sitting around while the mages prep their spells is a good substitute of my time.

>a lot of spells in older editions were straight up busted compared to modern editions of D&D
Only if you look at just the spell description section of the how does a spell work equation, and ignore that there is no written-in protection so a caster very well may think he is doing the cool but is actually bouncing a lightning bolt into his own face or party members.

Old school D&D was set up so that spells could have these huge effects, but the higher level your foes were the more likely it was that they pass their save and severely reduce what happens - plus magic resistance was actually an obstacle.

Where in more modern games the spells are barely toned down (some are left as they were, or even improved in some ways), but the saving throw and spell resistance mechanics function in a way that you can make it super fucking hard for either to work against your caster's spells.

So in the older editions if you did something like throw a disintegrate spell at a mind flayer it had like a 4.5% chance of actually working (90% magic resistance and only needing a 10+ on the d20 to pass the save if the magic resistance failed), but in 3.x (the start of the "new school") it's spell resistance of 25 was equivalent to like 60% and it's +3 fort save against your spell save DC of probably like 21+ for a disintegrate meant a total chance of actually blasting the squid-fucker (likely to death despite the spell doing a fucklot of damage instead of instant death) is more like 34% (thats 7.56 times more likely)

3.5 Psionics
3.5 Incarnum
Pathfinder Spheres of Power
Any other system.

It's literally only Vancian casting that has this fucking probably.
Blasting spells were never a problem in D&D. Like ever. It's the long ass pre preperation ritual magic like scrying and demon summoning that breaks the game. If wizards were just restricted to blasting a lot of D&D problems would get solved.

That doesn't sound like that big of a problem. In OD&D, the wizard. is basically just wasting his actions or being a buff monkey.

And the 3,5 example fails, because mind flayers really aren't a threat by the time Wizards get disintegrate. Literally everyone who isn't an active drain on the party should be able to slaughter one handily by level 11(mind flayers are only like CR 8, and pretty squishy with on average 44 hit points).

>And the 3,5 example fails, because mind flayers really aren't a threat by the time Wizards get disintegrate.
Don't be a dumbcunt. The example does not fail, it shows exactly what I meant for it to show, the difference of spells being a lot more than just the spell descriptions on their own.

You are also assuming there is literally only 1 mind flayer coming at the party at a time when you talk about them not being a threat, which is ignorant because AD&D has the number appearing listed as 1-4, and 3.5 follows suit listing their organization as "solitary, pair, inquisition (3-5), or cult (3-5 plus 6-10 grimlocks".

When you are talking about "here comes the mind flayers!" and in one system the wizard tossing their big bad spells at them (doesn't have to be disintegrate - all spells only have a 4.5% chance of actually working thanks to the rules) is a shit plan that doesn't work so great and in another system they've got like a 1 in 3 chance (or better, as I genuinely made a conservative estimate of what stats an 11th-level mage could have) of 1 action = 1 monster defeated, it's real fucking derp-shit stupid to say "that first one has spells that are 'straight up busted' compared to that second one"

>You are also assuming there is literally only 1 mind flayer coming at the party at a time when you talk about them not being a threat
A group of mindflayers on their own still wouldn't threaten a party too much.
>d in another system they've got like a 1 in 3 chance (or better, as I genuinely made a conservative estimate of what stats an 11th-level mage could have) of 1 action = 1 monster defeated
A highest level spell slot spent to take out one enemy that isn't even that much of a threat is actually a pretty shitty trade though. It's just that in OD&D is a lot more blatant the wizard is wasting his time not slobbering martial cocks.

>A highest level spell slot spent to take out one enemy that isn't even that much of a threat is actually a pretty shitty trade though. It's just that in OD&D is a lot more blatant the wizard is wasting his time not slobbering martial cocks.
Jesus fuck you keep missing the point.

I was addressing the idea that spells in older editions were more powerful compared to their modern equivalents - which is ass backwards.

That, no matter the edition, spells are better used to enhance the party rather than directly affect the enemies is a completely different fucking topic.

And yeah, go right on and "slobber" those "martial cocks" - they fucking love making system shock rolls to not instantly die from your haste spells. Which is another way in which the modern versions of spells are more potent than the older edition versions, proving my point even further.

OSR you need to be 9th level to cast Telekinesis, you only get 1 per day, and you probably don't even know it.
5e is just fucked with Mage Hand as an unlimited cantrip.

4e solves all those problems.

4e fixes DnD like Destiny 2 fixes Destiny. It fixes a handful of small elements and breaks everything else in the game in the process.

such as?

The bigger issue is DMs not crippling their fucking casters like they should. I'm not saying that you have to design every encounter around meticulously gimping the wizard, but just make their lives harder. Things like every enemy bum-rushing the first person to bust out a spell, making casters actually work for their spell list ("no, nobody in this god-fearing hamlet can teach you Summon Greater Demon; either wing it and pray that you don't fuck up find someone who knows it and get it from them"), making knowledge valuable or having people who hide treasure remember that spells like Mage Hand and Tenser's Floating Disc exist and plan accordingly - maybe there's a wall of force that will come crashing down as the chamber begins to flood if a telekenisis spell comes within a certain distance of the mcguffin, but some previous research in an optional detour reveals a way to get around that.

> I'm not saying that you have to design every encounter around meticulously gimping the wizard.
>Proceeds to list ways to mechanically punish the wizard with stuff like asspulled walls of force.

DnD, not even once.

Why does the idea of giving magical protection to something valuable and important buttfluster you so much?

Why does making an argument for DnD wizards not being broken without needing magic to specifically counter them leave you so buttflustered?

Please, go ahead an address the actual argument instead of hiding behind diversions. I'm waiting.

>It fixes a handful of small elements and breaks everything else in the game in the process.
No, that'd be Pathfinder.

Not him but using magic to defeat magic doesn't help the classes who lack magic in the first place. You might as well just tell everyone to be full casters if that's literally the only way you can prevent the Wizard from fucking up every encounter.

Ahahaha, actually you have called multiple different people "this retarded troll" before, including me. And now OP too. You're literally the worst advocate for D&D imaginable, keep up the good job of alienating anyone who dares to utter the words "HP bloat."

Magic doesn't have to be (and shouldn't be) the only solution to the problem, though; I was just describing a theoretical counter to the unfortunately common issue of a caster side-stepping an encounter. Maybe the rogue could go get it with some clever Mission Impossible-ish ropework and some tools, maybe the party carefully trips the traps, jams them and then just walks over and gets the mcguffin or maybe they backtrack to an adjacent room and break out the picks. My point is that spending an extra minute or two finding an excuse to cock-block the obvious magical solution pays generous dividends in both fun and FUN.

I always feel DnD suffers from an "everything goes in" problem.

you read that book with death magic, some film with voodoo shit, gandalf making a sword glow, a guy who explodes a dragon... well, if one of our players wants to play that, we better put it in the rules

suddenly you've got a class that can do small shit, and overblown shit.

Conan strangles a guy that one time. Fictional warriors don't generally get the Michael Bay options, so there's nothing for DnD to feed in.

Spheres of Power still encourages every wizard to poach the few best options of as many spheres as possible

You misspelled 4e, OP.

So let me get this right
>Martials have to play a game of convoluted "DM may I?" to do anything.
>Wizards get to just do things with a spell unless the DM crams anti-magic magic into everything.

Good game design. Sonic 06-tier.

>
>Martials have to play a game of convoluted "DM may I?" to do anything.
>Wizards get to just do things with a spell unless the DM crams anti-magic magic into everything.

I mean, one guy above had a point. Every single Wizard cheese relies on the idea that you can freely get access to any spell you choose, and nothing can stop you.

In D&D video game adaptations scrolls of truly powerful spells were really rare and you had to work for them. Stores were mostly stocked with fairly mundane, low-level spells.

So yeah, why not force the wizards into some DM may I? Fighters need powerful magical swords and some utility from items; wizards should also not have free access to each and every scroll they need to pull off whatever cheesy 5-spell interaction combo they desire.

I don't know why this caveat is never mentioned.

Like NOT BEING MUH DEE UN DEE REEEEEEEEEEEEE

Not the guy you're reply to, but most of the game-breaking wizard spells in DnD are level 3 or below. You don't need the "rare and powerful" spells to bend the game over your knee and spank it until it gives you everything you want whether the DM likes it or not.

I'm not defending the design you double nigger, I'm saying that you can work around the problems said design presents with relative ease.

How does a Wizard readily know how to Alter Self into a creature from Monster Manual Broken if they had no chance of interacting with the creature; say, if they live in Generic Medieval Fantasia and his creature of choice is a jungle raptor?

How can Rope Trick enable the 5 minute adventuring day at level 5 when it doesn't have the duration for it at the earliest moment you get it? Why do patrolling creatures never ambush a Rope Trick location?

I don't consider Grease/Sleep/Glitterdust/Web and the like gamebreaking, but they are very powerful.

The fuck are you on about? None of those were even mentioned at all.

>No feats
>No multiclassing
>Ability scores so rarely referenced as to finally be able to be removed from the game and replaced with their modifiers

We're close to removing the "game" elements from D&D

You mean they're replacing the TT with MMO in TTRPG

>How does a Wizard readily know how to Alter Self into a creature from Monster Manual Broken if they had no chance of interacting with the creature; say, if they live in Generic Medieval Fantasia and his creature of choice is a jungle raptor?
Books? I mean, a good nature roll will generally tell you whether you know things about the creature.
>How can Rope Trick enable the 5 minute adventuring day at level 5 when it doesn't have the duration for it at the earliest moment you get it?
Rope Trick lasts long enough to give you a short rest and Wizards can recover low level spells on a short rest, in addition to rolling HD normally.
>Why do patrolling creatures never ambush a Rope Trick location?
Because it's invisible and most low level creatures lack the means to detect magic innately.
>I don't consider Grease/Sleep/Glitterdust/Web and the like gamebreaking, but they are very powerful.
Probably because you only look at raw numbers without considering the versatility that those spells grant.

I like to rub butter on my nipples and let neighbour's dog lick it off. I get the same sensation, when I pick a Druid and terraform GM's world into a stinking shithole.

I want to have a shot at this.

1. Spellcaster classes get 1d10 hit dice (or better) per class level.
2. Casting a spell of level 1+ reduces the maximum health of the caster (instead of spell slots). The reduction is cumulative, and scales with spell level. Certain spells have 'severe consequences' on top of this (e.g. wish)
3. This reduction persists until the caster managed to have a long rest.
>Hardcore mode: the long rest may not be assisted by magical means of any kind. Convenience magic for resting benefits the non-casters, but not the casters, which introduces a trade-off. Lost HP are recovered, but the max hp penalty stays.

Yes, this is probably no longer D&D. Yes, this introduces a trade-off that makes each encounter progressively more dangerous to casters. But this, or anything like this, is NEEDED to put casters into the same context of non-casters.

>feats, multiclassing and ability scores make games games and tabletop

D&Drones everyone!

>I'm not saying that you have to design every encounter around meticulously gimping the wizard
>do exactly that and recommend not following the rules
Quality post.

The sad part is, DnDrones actually believe that kind of stuff passes an argument, so convinced they are that their system shits rainbows and gold-stars and can do no wrong.

>I don't know why this caveat is never mentioned.
Because of two things that the game did at a particular point in its evolution:

1) Putting the rules for gaining spells into the player's hands (i.e. going from the AD&D style of not gaining any spells automatically after the first few character levels unless you were a specialist, and even then it being the DM that tells you which spell of your specialized school you learn upon leveling up to the 3.X pick any two spells of a level you can cast, add another of your specialist school if you chose to specialize) which let the idea that the DM wasn't supposed to be "interfering" with spell selection in any way gain ground.

2) Making it so that any wizard can make scrolls at any level, and making the process affordable enough and low-time-investment enough that it seemed reasonable for their to be all sorts of folks selling all sorts of spells - and ramping up that feeling by giving specific predictable and affordable pricing to all magic items and suggesting that the DM have all kinds of magical shit in stores for PCs to buy by making up some shitty guidelines for what one might find in a particular sized settlement. (where in the AD&D era only higher-level characters could make scrolls of any sort, and they were constantly mentioned as rare and the DM was told not to just have easy access to whatever the players want)

>Spheres of Power still encourages every wizard to poach the few best options of as many spheres as possible
It really doesn't, because of the way Spheres Work. I say that only applies to a handful of spheres(Illusion, Fate, Divination primarily) but for the most path spheres encourages over specialization vs utility. Even a Sphere Caster poaching all the good shit from the Sphere's will still be less flexible than a mediocre default wizard.

This is ignoring some Spheres are also pretty much useless for most people if they don't specc into them HARD. Like Destruction and Weather.

To put things into perspective a Sphere Caster would need need to devote more than half of their Sphere Talents mimic the Haste spell as a Sphere ability, and have this mimicry still be less powerful than the Vancian version.

>te more than half of their Sphere Talents mimic the Haste spell as a Sphere ability
To acquire it around the time a Wizard could.