Greek fantasy

How did greek view Egypt, what was the relation with it?
And how did they see magic, what was practised?
Do you see any special theme (except fate and sea) that are must have in a greek campaign? Or some archetype or class that was liked a lot at the time?

-yes, everyone did back in the day. But it wasn’t an area of focus, like they weren’t a warrior culture (outside of the Spartans or anything). Even the democracies only counted male citizens (and not every male was a citizen) so people didn’t crusade much on moral issues.
-no, none at all, this defeats the point of fate in their mind. If you want to see how hard this point gets hammered in, read oedipus Rex.
-no it was more like blackmail or protection money. You want good crops this year? Well you better sacrifice a goat at the temple and burn some incense. Hate to see something bad happen to your fields.
-yes, unless you are a spartan. They didn’t have chattel slavery, they had houseservants who had certain protections. Being ‘free’ didn’t mean much at the time anyway. Several prominent Greeks were slaves, notably teachers. The Spartans were exceptions, since they constantly had to deal with slave revolts.
-the olympics were part international (within Greek culture) games, and part religious ceremony. City’s had their own sports tournaments and games they played amongst themselves. Television hadn’t been invented, so it was that, the theater, or writing poetry.
-no. The closest equivelant were cavalry, which the Greeks lacked. Viking culture was centuries off at this point. I’m sure you can come up with some equivelant though if this is a fantasy setting.

What system are you planning on?

Just do the Age of Mythology main campaign.

They were obsessed with Egyptian culture, most of our names for Egyptian things are Greek instead of Egyptian since more of there records survived. A ton had settled in Egypt even prior to Alexander’s conquest.

They did have a rivalry, given the lack of trees, Egypt lacked a navy, at least any that could compete with a Greek one. They relied on Greeks for almost all sea-trade. The Greeks had trouble leveraging this though, since the only goods the Greeks could sell of their own was olive oil.

I don’t think they considered magic a thing. Most philosophers (the closest equivalent to scientists) were pretty close to the mark about everything being explainable, the term atom is Greek for instance. They had plenty of superstitions, and legends of course, but most of this boiled down to ‘Zeus had sex with someone he shouldn’t have’. So all the supernatural either had a mundane explanation, or a divine one.

The most common type of soldier was the Hoplite, breast-plate, helmet, spear, and bigass shield. Swords weren’t common yet. Themes could include political ones, there was a split between monarchs and democracies, they were worried about being conquered by empires (Persia then Alexander), and their infighting is what ended their golden age.

If I may interject, I think the very idea of a berserker goes against the values of Ancient Greece. Relatively speaking the tribes of pagan Scandinavia were very hollistic, in touch with nature, not all too advanced et cetera. Something like warriors being taken in a fit of beastlike rage fits very well with their world view. On the other hand the Greeks did see their gods as fickle and unpredictable, but (especially with the emergence of its earliest philosophers) they also believed greatly in the force of reason and valued such things as discipline, mathematics and oratory. If there is even such a thing as a berserker in such a setting, it would come from the semi-civilized and uncivilized north such as Thrace, Macedonia and the Balkans.

Doing that, from this site:
theoi.com/

Thanks a lot for the answers.
>-no. The closest equivelant were cavalry, which the Greeks lacked. Viking culture was centuries off at this point. I’m sure you can come up with some equivelant though if this is a fantasy setting.
theoi.com/Gigante/GigantesAgriosOreios.html
Thinking of turning these thracian half-bear giants into an excuse for this.

Will have to be D&D 5E. The group isn't willing to learn something new, and I wouldn't know one is best anyway.

>I don’t think they considered magic a thing.
Yes they fucking did. Don't confuse the beliefs of the educated elite with the bulk of Greek society. Most believed magic was a thing, up to having professional curse removers.

To be fair, a lot of perception of history is skewed to the perspective of the elite, since they kept the best records.

Found a bear shapeshifter/barbarian class. Will use this, just changing the lore:
homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/S1Q7X6CX2g
Something like "you're a descendant of Agrios and Oreus, thus have abilities yada yada yada..."

>Swords weren’t common yet
Even as sidearm? Did the regular civilians or the soldier used something specific for self defense in the cities?

> Greek history begins with Plato and ends with Aristotle.

And many cults had berserker like traits. The Maenads of Dionysus and Pan's followers were known to go into violent frenzies, tearing animals and even people limb from limb in fits of madness. Ares was said to enter warriors' hearts and drive them to a violent apoplexy, his attendants furthering the madness of war.

Don't get caught up on the theories of philosophers as if they were the sum total of Greek thought and lifestyle, read the myths and look at the history before the Hellenistic period.

I don't know what that guy is talking about, swords were common even in the Bronze Age and never fell completely out of favour. The primary weapon of the battlefield was the spear and the javelin, but that's been true for all pre-gunpoder armies, the sword was in use in the form of the kopis, the makhaira, and the xiphos, for millenia.

Not in Greece. I imagine they may have had daggers.

Ironically enough Greek cavalry savers were the most advanced swords of their time, but the Greeks put little stock in cavalry.

But there are plenty of interesting weapons to pick from, especially if you draw from the other civilized regions.

OP - I know you're using 5e and I'm not suggesting you shouldn't. That being said, you should REALLY get hold of the GURPS Greece splat. There's a shit ton of info there and little of it system specific.

The PDF Share thread should have links to a GURPS trove.

I was taking specifically in greece, as opposed to the near east.

Ah the famed ancient Hero Trudeus.

>Will have to be D&D 5E. The group isn't willing to learn something new, and I wouldn't know one is best anyway.
Good to know. Fortunately 5e also has predone Greek Gods, even if I disagree with some details.

So, a pair of questions:
>Human only, or non-humans?
>Actual Greece in locations, or just Greek themed?

>>Were there berserkers of some kind?
Cults of Dionysus and Pan (who died circa 1 AD for some reason), especially female one's.
Eventually if you buy into "Berserker on horse" idea then there are Scythians. Or amoazons if you don't like horses that much.

Don't listen to this guy, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

If you're a history major I'm worried about the quality of your education.

>If there is even such a thing as a berserker in such a setting, it would come from the semi-civilized and uncivilized north

How unusual

Common is a seperate word for nonexistent. My focus isn’t in the classical era, but most of what I’ve gone over were the Big battles, were spears were the weapon of choice.

Duly noted user, will check it out.

>Human only, or non-humans?
Not sure, myrmidons (antfolk), spartoi (?) and drakainas (snakewomen and maybe men) seem interesting.

>Actual Greece in locations, or just Greek themed?
Greek-themed.

You can do Druids and Barbarians as literally being from the Celts, the Culture that basically founded the Term Barbarian AND Druid.

>spears were the weapon of choice.
Spears were always the weapon of choice until the musket was invented, you fucking moron. The only people who used swords as their primary weapons were the Romans, and even then that wasn't universal.

You literally said the Greeks had no swords 'maybe daggers' which is so eye bleedingly wrong it brings into question literally everything else you've said.

Why not centaurs, harpies and lamia?
>insert monmusu reference here.

Those are good. I'd add also a big emphasis on hubris, tied of course with fate, and the general concept of hospitality, which was a pretty big deal in archaic greece.
As suggested, read at least Oedipus Rex, but I personally recommend also Ajax (also by Sophocles) and Agamnenon by Aeschilus. Really, if you have time you should read every tragedy of the big three; theater was the sublimation of the later greeks idea of their mythic ancestor, in which they saw reflections of the present. I also suggest reading about the concepts of guilt society and shame society, if I recall correctly, as explained by Dodds. And for some comedic shenanigans, read Aristophanes too.
You are incorrect about many things: mysticism was pretty important to greeks. There are many accounts of esoteric cults and fascinations during every greek age we have record of. Also you generalize a lot about Greece and greeks; they were very heterogenous and culturally different. Philosophers weren't atheist; they had strong connections with mysticism and eastern influences. The most rationalist of them were the sophists, who were also the laughing stock of socrates and plato (while allegedly held in high regard by everyone else). The concept of atom was very different from what we mean today, of course. Hoplites were common during a precise era (the Persian and Peloponnesian war, to be precise) but before and after there were a huge variety of military formations; it would be strange to find hoplites beside Achilles or Diomedes.

Except I literally didn’t. I literally said they weren’t common in Greece yet.

>I literally said they weren’t common in Greece yet.
And you are

FUCKING

WRONG

A few were Athiest, but I wasn’t trying to imply that most Greeks didn’t believe in the Gods. I was trying to say I didn’t think magic would be a good phrase for fantastical things in a Greek setting.

>but before and after there were a huge variety of military formations
If by huge variety of military formations you mean standing at a line or forming a static square, sure. There was nothing professional about the Ancient Greek's armies, their tactics boiled down to just bumrushing people.

>discipline
Ancient Greek sources are full of people rejecting it.

They were. They absolutely were. You can't fight a battle with spears alone. Once you are in close combat and the formation is broken you need something that doesn't weigh 10 kilos and is long 2 meters. They mention them costantly in the Iliad.

Not excluding them, just pointing out the ones which seemed "greek" instead of "so common they're now proper in generic fantasy", if you get my drift.

Great, this thread is really helping guys!

>hospitality
Would doing a quest for your host count as a proper gift in return for his hospitality?

>I was trying to say I didn’t think magic would be a good phrase for fantastical things in a Greek setting.
Magic is literally a Greek origin word

Okay fair enough.

Races I'd recommend from various sourcebooks:
Dragonborn as the Spartoi
Minotaurs (Waterborne Adventures UA)
Siren (Plane Shift Ixalan)
I'd also include Orcs (Volo's guide) or Half Orcs (or the PS Ixalan version of Orcs, which use Half Orc stats) as descendants of Horkos.

In that case, nymphs?

A good guest would never ask something like that. There is a moment in the Iliad in which a greek hero, in the midst of a bloody battle, sees a trojan who some years before offered hospitality to him. They hug and exchange armor and weapons like brothers. There was also something about bread and salt, but I can't recall correctly. You could maybe write a quest about recovering the armor of a man who once offered a pc hospitality and then do a little comfy scene about his sons thanking him and vow to serve him someday as a debt. Guests were like brothers.

Xenia is a bit more complicated than just gift giving, its as much about correct behavior and protocol. A priest or oracle demanding a PC go on a quest for violating xenia would be more realistic than offering to do it as a 'gift'. Doing mighty deeds to atone for grievances is pretty common.

Linothorax is a thing, martials kick more asses than anyone else, magicians are mostly focused in seeing future, while priests are mostly to make sure gods are not pissed at you at the wrong moment, and sometimes for talking/bringing forth some spirits of river/fire depending which one of the two is standing in your way (like in Iliad).

I actually agree with you, in the sense of dnd classical magic; I can't see a priest of Ares casting Bless or some old philosopher/mystic thingie throwing fireballs around. Maybe a Medea-like druidess doing nefarious rituals, or a masked man burning incense to curse someone, and of course oracles. It could be worked on, but I agree: no 5e standard magic system pls

I would definitely add Celts as the barbarians and Druids.

The Celts utterly thrashed Macedonia around 300 BC and got as far as Delphi before retreating backwards.

Greek accounts even speak of Naked Celtic Warriors drawing Greek spears from their torsos to hurl them back at the Greeks.

Sounds like the DnD barbarian to me, even down to the No armor but a shield the barbarian can do.

Personally I like making a distinction between magic and the divine.

Good ideas.

The various types of nymphs could work, yes.

Thanks for the corrections and the ideas of quests.

>no 5e standard magic system pls
What then? Couldn't it be some foreign tradition from Persia and whatnot?

You convinced me. If that isn't a good source of barbarians and druids, don't know what is.

And that's a very D&D thing to do. Magic was sometimes indistinguishable from the divine, like in Egypt. And a lot of magicians get powers from a god, a divine origin, or by invoking a god.

Not them, but if you want divine magic users, I'd actually recommend the divine soul sorcerer archetype.

If you have wizards as well, I'd recommend they be from the equivalent of Egypt or Mesopotamia.

Celt-bro here.

The Celt-Greek relationshp is rather amusing. Celts are seen as your typical Northern barbarians, They'd often raid Thrace and Macedon for example.

However, the Greeks didn't really project any symbolism of evil or vileness on them on the contrary, Greeks considered Celts Beautiful people and the term Celt ( or Keltai or Galtae ) were loan words FROM Celtic the Greeks used to describe them, mainly Strong and Valiant.

And true to Greek fable, where everyone is supposed to be desended from ancient heroes or monsters, The Greeks thought the Celts were the Sons of Heracles or the Cyclops Polythemus and Galateia.

In Short, Celts to the Greeks Were Handsome Raiders who could be trusted enough to be Mercenaries.

Maybe it’s just the judeo-Christian tradition in my head.

If Magic exists, I don't see why Wizards are not just Philosophers and thinking men.

I don't actually have any good idea how to make magic work, I'm sorry. But maybe you could have some mishmash of Circes, Medea, Calypso and so on. Magic users were usually female for a variety of reasons; you say Persia, but I would just say some generic 'Eastern Culture', to be vague enough. Maybe some phoenician warlocks?
I think that rituals are mostly good to use. Divination as a whole is the biggest greek magic thing. Every form of transfiguration is early italian (I don't know how to say 'Etruscan', is it correct?). Druids could either be from the east or from the north. Also illusions are good, and some enchantments. Well, maybe you could just ditch most damage-dealing spells and be done with it.

Easy. Spells are just Formulae like in Mathematics.

You have schools of magic just like schools of Philosophy.

Just imagine if Socrates was able to debate so hard he turned a nigga into a frog.

Greek Wizardry.

That's true. There is not a single istance recorded in which a greek calls a celt 'barbarian'. The only barbarians where persians and romans, funnily enough, because they couldn't speak greek well. Barbarian means literally 'stuttering'; βαρ-βαρ is an onomathopeia meant to deride.

Int-based bards?

Oh! Other race ideas:
>Triton (Volo's guide)
>Goliath (Volo's guide) use them as Gigantes or Laestrygonians.

>You are a not!Greek adventurer
>Your King demands a new trading post in the east, past the Barbarians in the lands of the beautiful raidermen from the north
>You Find the perfect cove
>You are invited inland by the natives to a feast
>The Chiefs beautiful daughter hands a cup in front of you
>It's a symbol of marriage

Are Celts Wood Elves?

Hell, one of the made up backstories of the celts ( they like these alot in their mythology for different cultures ) is they are descended from Heracles.

That's a pretty big endorsement really considering how popular Heracles was.

Ooh, good idea.

Ugh, the Loremaster arcane tradition would probably fit them the best, wouldn't it.

Nah, the man is not debating with the man to turn him into a frog, but with reality to turn him into a frog.

>Bunch of old men in robes debating the correct method and stance in using "Socrate's scorching hands"
>Several have singed togas.

That depends on the source tho. Some 16th century scottish 'historian' explain how his people descends from some Trojan refugee that fled in Scotland after the siege. I don't know that myth, but I find it pretty plausible desu. Also it could be very cool to meet, in-game, the descendants of Eracles and a celt warrior princess from the north.

But wouldn't be cooler if Socrates could turn someone into a frog by convincing him that in another previous life he was already a frog so he had all the frogginess he needed inside him the whole time? WITH LOGIC?

Another is the Celts are descended from Galateia.

Hence why the Galatians were called Galatians, who were celts.

On that note- be sure to include a lot of arguing old men in your setting.

But that implies Socrates used his charm and wit instead of stone cold logic.

Which is Socrates's modus operandi.

That’s not that far off from reality. Socrates spent his free time going up to random Athenians, and engaging them in pointless philosophy until their brains hurt so much they’d leave in a rage.

It’s why they executed him. Dude was a prick.

Diogenes was obviously a type of druid though.

He had access to the Conure Animals spell.

>Not Baleful Polymorph

That's why is int-based tho. He doesn't use charm: he only exposes the truth as it is. And, quod erat dimonstrandum, the truth is that you are a frog.
Yeah. Plato's Protagoras is excellent at showing him making fun of wise men and society as a whole. Aristophanes' Clouds also are that same kind of attitude from the opposite point of view: a smartass who was funny to have around sometimes but to generally dispise. Just like wizards!

Hubris is a very common focus of the greeks
>aka being a proud fuck with an over inflated sense of self worth pissed off the gods
Games
>they took the Olympics dead seriously, frequently had lesser athletic compititions
Citizenship
>if you were not a citizen they gave no fucks, generally people got by through befriending a citizen and having them play middle man. Slaves, freemen and foreigners could live in a city for generations and not gain citizenship.

>spears are the primary weapon in warfare (as with almost everywhere else)

>therefore swords weren't common

Wow.

Pikes didn't come into common use in the Greek world until the time of Phillip of Macedon. For all of what we understand as classical and pre-classical Greece, the most common weapon for an infantryman would have been a spear barely taller than the user, which has been the standard for almost all of history.

On the topic of magic, I think the ancient Greeks believed everything was composed of various amounts of the four Elements (earth, fire, air and water). Might be some fun to have there.

The terrm Barbarian doesn't have a negative connotation for ancient Greeks. They were just people without (Greek) civilization.

Sophists were people who could argue for or against something with the same ease. They were despised by philosophers because they didn't seek Truth or Wisdom.

All this from my recollections from my philosophy major, so grain of salt as needed.

There is a pseudo-Greek bronze age game called "Crestfallen" has anyone seen or played this?

Ideas about common armours:
>Padded - Linothorax
>Scale
>Breastplate - Muscle or Bell Cuirass
>Half-Plate - Full panoply of armour such as the Dendra Panoply

Common simple weapons:
>Dagger
>Javelin
>Sickle - Kopis
>Spear - Dory
>Shortbow
>Sling

Common martial weapons:
>Lance - Kontos
>Pike - Sarissa
>Scimitar - Makhaira
>Shortsword - Xiphos

Was there bronze scale?

Armor was commonly bronze, because even though it is more expensive on a material basis, you don't have to worry about it rusting and so it basically lasts forever.

Yeah, look at Akhilleus on the right there.

Hmm, that looks like the scale done on leather or thick cloth to kind of make "plates" on the shoulders, as opposed to more "loose" scale in a way similar to chain.

>Greek Barbarians
>warriors who get ripshit pissed and fight
Could adapt Maenads, considering their thing was getting so drunk they became manic.

>Is it true that fate is very important for ancient greeks?
Yes. Also, the Greeks loved the irony in the idea that a person could fulfill a prophecy by the very means they take to avoid that same prophecy. Take Oedipus for example. His parents were told that he would shank his pa and shag his mum, so they left him as a baby in the woods to die. Another family adopts him and he grows up never knowing his original parents. Then he's told the same prophecy his parents were told, so he leaves home to avoid nasty things to his adoptive parents. He coincidentally meets his original parents, but since they don't recognize each other, he shanks his pa and shags his mum. Moral of the story: If your players try to fight fate, you can't just screw you them, you have to make them screw themselves.

You need Gorgon girls with little snakes for pubic hair, and you need for those little snakes to cover your face in little snake smooches while you're eating her out, and for them to very gently and playfully nip at your balls while you're thrusting inside her.

Okay, so putting a few things together based on this thread...

The world is mostly ocean. One or two large land masses, but otherwise just long island chains and similar.

A couple of nations:
>Seagoing kingdom of Minotaurs, based on minoans. Labyrinthine cities, palaces, and fortresses. Often act as merchants and pirates.
>A great Thalassocracy, ruling a bunch of islands and coastal cities. Mostly human.
>Military state occupied by Spartoi (dragonborn) created by a great hero after he slew a dragon. (Based on thebes)
>Desert empire based on egypt. Home of wizards, writing, sphinxes, slavery and similar.
>Amazonian queendom, possibly of horse nomads.
>Quasi-persian city states.
>Atlantis, occupied by tritons.

The cosmology has some planes from the great wheel, but in a different state.
In one continent lies Arborea, a wooded, fielded paradise, where stands a great mountain occupied by many of the gods, and the good empyreans.
Beneath the world, and beneath the underdark, lies the Gray Wastes of Hades. Home of many fiends, the most common inhabitants are manes, lemures, and larvae, formed from the souls of the dead.
Hidden within the Gray Wastes is Elysium, a great paradise where the souls of heroes go. Many heroes have become lost trying to find it, but still go because of the veritable paradise that awaits there.
Beneath Hades lies Carceri, a great prison for evil empyreans, giants, and other foul things.

You forgot the snake pubes.

You should just have the setting be Mythic Greece, mixed with real historical Bronze Age elements. There's a lot of material and it would feel more genuine.

If you want other powers there also includes-
-The Macedons, Helenized cavalry troops who conquered everyone under Alexander
-The Persians in their fuckhuge empire who generally nice guys outside of the conquering everyone thing.
-Judea
-Syria
-The Mesopotamians
-The Semitic City-States, such as tyre, who were sea-going peoples that were rivals to the Greeks.

And the Celts, Mercenaries famed for their Valor and good looks!

>make them screw themselves
Or their mums

Don't use races.
Gods and heroes are so tightly connected that is seems to reach SWs-level of "200 person make the galaxy go around". Your party might perfectly well have 1 hero son of Apollo and another a pupil of Chiron.
No real good and evil. I mean, there was bad shit and there was good shit, that's for sure, but dont' go full Tolkien and use some empire of evil. Do make the king a bad motherfcuker (ESPECIALLY a taboo-breaking motherfucker) but even the "chaos land" thing (see giants in Scandinavia) is very subsumed in hellenic myth, at most you'd have wilderness and honestly not even THAT much.
Passions are stronger than anything, they can destroy lives, cities, nations, demigods.
Life is short -not necessarily bad, but melancholinically short- and the afterlife is (probably) shit.

1) Yes and no. You had taboos and shit. Still, I mean, Ulysses was frankly morally abhorrent to any culture and he made it to the top.

2) Fate wasn't that "general". I mean, some heroes had great fate-y things going on, other dindn't. If mythographers (especially in dramas) wanted us to think that some hero fought fate he did lose, but...

3) No. More like folk magic.

4) In mythology slaves are almost non-existant. IRL? I guess pretty much, IF it was a domestic "high" slave.

5) Tons. In myths, festivals and funerals (yes, funerals) for great heroes and kings were that common that if DND was greek-based you wouldn't have a "you all meet in a tavern" but "you all met at the games".

6) No, and especially not IRL. Tough heroes were absurdly prone to rage and they might have VERY bad decisions, they didn't get powerups. Closest equivalent as a buff in a game would be gods' intervention.

I'll add: female heroes aren't unheard of, and goddesses were pretty badass (tough we don't see it that much literally, it's clear). If classical Greece (well, classical Athens) was a woman's nightmare, myth wasn't that much, serial divine raping nonwithstanding.

I made a topic on Veeky Forums about Greek warfare if you're interested in it. It's full of sources too:
Might help you shape up your campaign

Goddamnit