So, I was looking through some of the Old World of Darkness stuff. Checking out the strongest things from each race...

So, I was looking through some of the Old World of Darkness stuff. Checking out the strongest things from each race. The ultimate mages are basically gods. The strongest Vampires are also pretty intimidating, but I was wonder how bad ass the strongest werewolves are. Does anybody have the "scale" they can compared to each other with?

Black Spiral Dancers

As far as I remember, werewolves didn't get to "so much overpowered that this is literally a narrative tool for a campaign" levels,
They didn't became gods or demigods, individually, but you have to think them as packs.
A pack of level 5-6 can face stuff at the levels of ante-deluvians or beyond (Seth, Wyrm Talons, Wyrm Incarna, etc) and access to equal powers (summoning Fenris, making the sun to rise, appealing to Rorg to rain down meteorites on to your enemies.
These powers appeal to higher beigns, and are more narrative, tho.

>oes anybody have the "scale" they can compared to each other with?
ye

It doesn't make much sense to compare Antediluvians, Archmages, and Caine, since they're all essentially plot devices.

It doesn't take in account the Living Legend wolves, with tier 6 gifts.

Why is Caine so powerful?, is it just because of virtue of being the original vampire or is it something else?

Also, where do demons fall in that chart?

As the other user said, he's supposed to be a plot device (or a taxi driver), not a NPC.
Also it's an old meme due to pic

Werewolves aren't supossed to be super powered gods the same way the others are, they're supossed to hunt in packs.
They could challenge pretty much anything in a big enough pack, but alone they're only marginally stronger than 7° generation vampires.
At least that's what i remember.

My experience with werewolf is that a starting garou can take down any other starting pc race, except demons, but in higher levels the pack is absolutely essential and has to be smart to overcome the shit you throw at them. They are fighting a desperate war, after all.

any good source for a quick rundown on WoD factions?

Taxi gotta be driven man.
How does it compare in nwod?

It' a hard thing to do, since factions change from game to game, overlapping or absorbing the factions in other games. For example: In werewolf, the players fight for Gaia against the Wyrm, wich is one of the three powers in Gaia, but is out of control and trying to corrupt and destroy everything. The vampires, wich have a whole own book and inner world, are but wyrm creatures. Other of the powers is the Weaver, the power of order. The technocracy of Mage is a faction of the Weaver, and the own Mages side with Kaos, the third and weaker power in Werewolf.
In each game, the world is reshaped to fix the theme of the game, with the shared elements rearranged, so you need to focus in one game to get a coherent perspective or WoD

From an in-universe standpoint, the Mark of Cain given to him by God makes him literally impossible to kill, so that’s already a pretty big advantage.
It’s not precisely correct to think of him as the first Kindred either, because according to the Book of Nod he basically started out with his immortality but was only cursed with vampiric weaknesses after the fact, and then learned his supernatural powers from Lilith who already knew how to use them.
Caine is more like a premodern superhuman who’s descendants are vampires due to so many Kindred rules not really applying to him personally.

I think a lot of people massively underestimate (neonate) cainites. The ability to spend blood to temporarily increase physical stats to superhuman levels can turn even a wimpy vampire into a combat monster, and the fact that they take reduced damage from bullets is nothing to sneeze at either.

Now compare to a young werewolf, wich in combat form is already a killing machine, ane can spend rage to be even more killy.
A neonate vampire is hard stuff compared with a human, but there is a so many scary thing in the world it won't compete

The vast majority of Kindred have some pretty severe limitations on how much vitae they can spend and how much they can augment themselves with it; high Generation may be relatively common with PC’s, but the most Kindred are locked into the “one point a turn, one higher then your Generation maximum” when boosting their physical stats, which while definitely pretty badass requires a bit of time to prepare before a fight to really jack up yourself to high levels, and even then that will burn through half of your Blood pool.

Garou have the strongest combat stats at "begginer" levels, I'm not going to argue with that. Now how about we compare a neonate kindred with a novice-level mage, or a changeling, or even a kuei-jin?

Besides, if you make a really combat-oriented neonate vampire, they can easily have 3+ dots in Celerity or Potence, allowing them to either gun down anything in 1 turn in bullet-time, or throw a knife with more force than a rifle shot, etc.

One of the biggest advantages the Werewolf has is the Aggrevated damage soak and dealing abilities they get and their sheer survivability.
A young Kindred (let’s say, with a base 3 in all physical stats) with solid combat skills could, assuming that they are running with a full tank of gas, take several turns jacking every physical stat up to 5 by burning through half of their blood pool, which would definitely make them no slouch just due to how d10’s roll in the game to a young garou of equal stats, not counting any other physical boosting Disciplines he might have. In fact if the Kindred could get in a solid first hit, he might really mess a Garou up. Seen it happen in a few games, with the initial lucky strike from a few (very stupid) players get a Garou down to near-crippled levels with a solid first shot and some decent rolls.
The main problem is that when the Werewolf hits BACK the Kindred basically has about zero defenses against it; they can’t soak the claws and teeth on top of the car-smashing super-strength they’ll whip out on you, so even with that lucky first hit that might cripple or kill a Garou, the return shot is going to hurt a LOT more pretty much no matter what, even a glancing shot with no extra successes. Then add to the fact that the Garou is going to be healing from that Damage you did and will likely have a few friends nearby, the odds are heavily in their favor unless you get a BUNCH of well-prepared, well-armed, combat-trained Kindred expecting a fight together. The issue is it’s hard to find too many Kindred who were dedicated violence-dealers like with werewolves just due to their society not working that way, and even then getting them all to work together is like pulling teeth.

In some VtM games with sadistic GM’s, I’ve had coteries take down Garou using modern weaponry and Disciplines in combo, sure. The real problem is arranging a fight with werewolves where the terrain is in your favor and having enough guys to really press your advantage.

They go down pretty quick with a bit of silver.

Because he literally has the power to have all powers. He's connected to every bloodline, and if he makes a new power, that's literally an entire budding Vampire bloodline if he were to sire anyone, or just a new discipline waiting to be discovered via Diablerie of an Elder or some shit.

He's cursed by YHWH, and literally cannot die until God decides to forgive him or smite him, and he usually just hangs in the background as a Taxi driver tailing Beckett, who actually woke him up for a shit and a giggle to get the guy's reaction when Gehenna hits.