Is it possible to play a Sith that isn't a fucking jobber? I mean Sith are suppose to be self serving...

When you put it like that you want me to join a SW rp group and create a dark jedi character whose end goal in life is making 'How to' videos for the dark side so that there are so many wannabe sith running around the real thing gets diluted and has to compete for attention. Why join some pedo in a hood when you can learn how to do rad lightning flips off the holonet?

When was the Sith as a concept solidified anyway? The Emperor sure as hell didn't mention belonging to an ancient order of masochists.

>to the point where they have to brainwash children and seperate them from their parents just to make it "safe" to teach them about the Force.
I hate what the prequels did to the perception of the jedi order

>sith teachings herp derp
Nigga the Rule of Two only came into being with Bane and was ditched again after a couple of hundred years and Palpy fucking up

>but that's not canon anymore
Why the fuck would you want to play in canon, it's shit

Literally not true. This is how the vast majority of casual fans believe the Force works, but it's literally not true.

>The Margarine Wars

So was it about the eternal argument about whether margarine is superior to butter?

>But all Light-siders are jobbers too because they adhere to an anti-life philosophy where they care about NOTHING in order to fight that temptation, to the point where they have to brainwash children and seperate them from their parents just to make it "safe" to teach them about the Force.
Like says where "Dark Sider" and "Sith" is a false equivalency, "Light Sider" and "Jedi" is also a false equivalency. The old Jedi Order was dogmatic in its approach to fighting the temptions of using the Force selfishly and in a corruptive way; they believed in self-control to the point where the fewer attachments to anything, the better because there's less chance of you being led to do something that causes you to use the Force in a bad way.

I thought the casual's understanding of the Force was that there was literally a Light Side and a Dark Side (and a neutral middle, in some cases), not that the Force in its natural state is the "Light side" and that using the Force in a way that goes against this nature is the "Dark side."

But if it's neither of those, then what is it? You don't just say "You're completely wrong" and not show your work.

>When was the Sith as a concept solidified anyway? The Emperor sure as hell didn't mention belonging to an ancient order of masochists.

That is because he wasn't. The story notes and transcripts between Lucas/Kasdan just indicates he was a Master of the Dark Side, but Lucas never mentions the Jedi/Sith connection to Kasdan. He does mention him being based on Nixon and Yoda/Palpatine being two sides of the same coin who are more teachers than warriors (this obviously changed with AOTC/ROTS).

But the idea of Vader being a Sith was always there in the OT more specifically in a lot of the ANH material.

But even it was mostly Sith=Dark Jedi.

It's only during the prequel era when Lucas was working on TPM that you began to see the solidified idea of the Rule of Two for the Sith (as a reflection of the main theme in TPM) and the main conflict being that of Jedi vs Sith.

>Through passion I gain strength
>passion
Nowhere in the sith code is a reliance on hatred and cartoon evil mentioned. Understand there are strong emotions outside the anger spectrum and boom. You're no longer a generic sith. Focus on the code

Jedi see the force as an end
>There is no death, there is the force
Sith seem to view it as a means to an end
>The force shall set me free

Call it "dark jedi" grey or whatever else you want. Just adhere to your understanding of the code and reject the jedi's path of zen tranquility

You can be, but you would not be sith, you would be a dark Jedi. To be a sith is like being part of a religion.

The Jedi Council made its own fate; they sat on their hands and let a wildfire burn out of control. Their "nanana cant hear you" approach meant only the most rebellious or hot headed Jedi would go to fight and soon enough they had no control over the situation at all.

One can hardly believe "inaction and passivity are the ways to the Light" when that belief plunged the galaxy into a rotating series of Sith rulers or their puppets for literal millennia.

It was, in essence, a self-fulfilling prophecy:

- The Jedi Council feared that if Jedi fought in the Mandalorian Wars, something worse would emerge
- Revan and 1/3rd of the Order (mostly younger members) went to fight anyway. Without the experience of Masters to aid them, they fell to the Dark Side and became New Sith
- The New Sith was what the Jedi Council had feared the entire time.

If only the whole order had acted, the Revanchists would never have fallen to the Dark Side and the New Sith woulnd't have emerged.

This is why you don't actually try and look into the future, Barry. You just end up causing something in your efforts to prevent it.

>I hate what the prequels did to the perception of the jedi order

Someone needs to watch Empire again.

"He is too old! Too old to begin the training."

Not him but,

The real misconception about the Force isn't that it's 'naturally' aligned with the light. The problem is that normies think that the Force seeking 'balance' is ultimately a good thing.

What this 'balance' really means is endless warfare as the Force tries to even out the power that the light and dark side have over the galaxy. When you realize that it's only method for achieving this balance is putting the Sith and Jedi at odds, you find that this means the Star Wars universe is condemned to infinite unending wars.

Ever wonder why thousands of years can seperate Star Wars stories but the technology, culture and beliefs haven't changed? It's because the wars between Jedi and Sith are always destroying the galaxy, killing trillions and leaving stagnation in the process.

A lot of people dislike Kreia because they believe she's just bitter about being cast out of the Jedi order and the Sith Triumvirate. While they might be partially correct, the real reason she's so bitter is because she realizes that the Force condemns the galaxy and everyone in it to a life without choice. Most people in the Star Wars universe will be involved, one way or another in a war that kills millions and destroys entire planets. The Jedi and Sith will always fight, unable to look past their dogmatism and millenia old hatred for each other. So when Kreia threatens to kill the Force and possibly all life by extension, its not because she's angry for being exiled, but rather because she knows that the cycle will continue forever and ever, inflicting infinite suffering on every thing that lives.

The only true victory in Star Wars is to deny the Force and it's will, and struggle to create your own freedom.

The issue with star wars as a whole really comes down to the sheer number of people who have weighed in on the universe as a whole.
Everyone and their dog has weighed in on what bringing balance to the force means. I think a lot of the confusion originates from the differences between Eastern and Western ways of thinking. In the West, there is often an emphasis of good vs evil. The light side vs the dark side. So when the idea of balance is introduced, people think of it like a scale, with light on one side, and dark on the other.
The eastern way of thinking often has more of a focus on harmony, where confusion and disharmony create chaos, throwing everything out of balance. In this case, there would be no light side. There is simply the force, and the dark side is what happens when a person gives into their darker impulses, and loses that harmony.
These two views don't play well together, they never have. And as i said, many people who have contributed to star wars seem to have different ideas on what it all really means. With KotoR II, Obsidian clearly went out to try something different, to put their own spin on the universe, using the incompetent jedi council that bioware wrote in KotoR I to really hammer the point home.
Yet I believe the movies make their own views decently clear.
"You were the Chosen One! You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them. You were supposed to bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness." Anakin kills a shit ton of jedi, to the point where we have a pretty much even number of jedi and sith left in the galaxy. If balance was meant to be a scale with the light side on one end, and the dark on the other, the force would be in balance. But Obi-wan clearly sees the current state of affairs as being out of balance, and if anyone in the setting understands the force, its Obi-wan and Yoda.
And in the end, Anakin redeems himself. He kills the Emperor, turns his back on the Dark Side, and fulfills the prophecy

I used to think like you, but Clone Wars canonized the Light Side as passivity and imbalance itself.
So basically the Jedi strive for balance but glide more and more towards light side imbalance. Yoda's refusal to take Anakin's education in his own hands could be seen as such, because leaving the education of the chosen one to Obi Wan was clearly a bad idea.

I do have somewhat of a counterpoint. Anakin is regarded as the chosen one who will bring balance to the force from the beginning. It seems to me that the Jedi council realizes that things are not currently in balance at the time they take in Anakin, even if they don't fully comprehend why.
Rather than live with their emotions and seek the discipline to control themselves, the Jedi in the prequels cut themselves off from all emotion that they can. Rather than learn true self control, they remove their own personal connection from everything, essentially taking the easy way out. The Force is the connection between all living things. All life is touched by the force, and the force touches all life. How can one claim to be in harmony when they have rejected everything that makes them, for lack of a better term, human?

I can only imagine that George Lucas was going for a happy ending when he finished RotJ. Luke is the hero, the empire is defeated, and Anakin, Yoda, and Obi-wan all look on, hopeful for the future. But Luke isn't passive. He isn't disconnected from the world. He didn't cut himself off from emotion the way that the Jedi council tried to do.

Fear is supposed to be one of the first steps on the path to the dark side. But the jedi council seems to fear emotion more than anything. Their own strict adherence to their dogma has left them paralyzed, and thrown the natural state of things out of balance. Luke and Anakin, at the end of the OT, are the ones who have finally brought balance after generations of chaos.
Until the fucking sequel trilogy decided to ruin everything, but that just ties into my initial argument of multiple different writers having very different views on everything.

Extremes on both sides are bad m'kay?
And having magical superpowers just waiting to pounce and drag you to one of those extremes is also bad, yea?

You know that you can be a Dark Side Force user and not be a Sith, right? You basically just asked if it was possible for you to go camping without joining the Boy Scouts.

What this user said. I've always believed that the Jedi's mistake was going too deep into the light side of the force (to the point where they were essentially light side Sith, equally dogmatic and resentful of the opposite side as them), much like the Sith were extremely fucked up individuals because they essentially nosedived into the opposite side. I'd go on about it, but already did a banging job explaining most of it.

>"was I any different, when you trained me?"
Yoda was reaching for any excuse he could find, for one thing, and for another, that doesn't mean the alternative to Luke being "too old" is "let's recruit infants."
Also in ANH, Obi-Wan said that when he met Luke's father, he was "the best star pilot in the galaxy," which any logical person would take to mean he was at least a young adult, not a fucking 8-year-old (who was also classified as "too old" by the Council).

Well yea, honestly at the end of it the light/dark side of the force is strangely simplistic:

Collectivism and Individualism.

Jedi give up themselves for the sake of others while Sith give up others for the sake of themselves.
Neither are functional human beings

When I played SWTOR, I did my Sith Warrior in kind of a unique and fun way that worked out well.

Basically, he was like the Predator. He was always searching for a new, stronger opponent, and sought to duel them. Anyone he fought, he killed. However, he spared innocents and the weak because there wasn't any sport or challenge in it.

So at what point did the Jedi become full Monastic, emotion is evil? Since Old Republic era Jedi in the old EU still had families, all the whole organization seemed a lot less hierarchical and rigid by the time the prequels rolled around.

And yeah prequel-era Jedi weren't perfect, Yoda himself pointed out that arrogance was becoming a common trait amongst the Jedi. Even Yoda himself struggled with it throughout the Clone Wars.

>Until the fucking sequel trilogy decided to ruin everything,

Really the thing that bothers me most about the sequels is how, RotJ ends with the protagonists set up to do so much, especially Luke. But it's worth nothing now.

The sequels really should've been set much, much farther in future. If only people could see what the efforts of the OT protagonists produced. I was hoping to see Luke's fledgling Jedi order, or his order at the height.

>Just philosophically in line with the dark side of the force

So battered by fear and rage, wanking yourself raw with the monkey's paw as you convulse back and forth between being drunk on your own power and despairing as you can't undo what you just did in that drunken stupor, desperately trying to convince yourself that it's everyone else you hate, not yourself?

>Until the fucking sequel trilogy decided to ruin everything
Uhm, TLJ runs heavily with what you've said here. Luke fucked up because he was the great jedi master, instead of first and foremost being Luke Skywalker the human. Then we he finally accepted being human, with all the fuckups that means, he found balance and could successfully be the great jedi master as well. Balance and stability also being some of the least suitable words to describe Kylo Ren, and so he's dark side.

I don't know but I'd argue during/after the wars against the sith. Seeing enough people fall to the dark side because they got emotionally overwhelmed by the horrors of war and simply couldn't it

>You fought in the Margarine Wars?

>Unironically thinking that Kreia is right
Kill yourself.

To be fair he basically won the battle of Naboo single handed and crippled the Trade Federation's entire operation in the sector when he was 8.

Calling him "the best star pilot in the galaxy" might have been a stretch but from Obi-Wan's perspective it could seem true enough.

>It's just like podracing!

The ending of episode 1 was a trainwreck. How are you expected to keep track of four separate battles going on at the same time?

Fuck off, mouseshill.

>he failed Kreia completely and utterly

embarrassing desu

the force is there and manifests in people no matter what. it would do this even in the absence of either the Sith or Jedi orders. sith and jedi make doctrine about the force based on morals (strong protect weak vs. strong exploit weak) but at the end of the day, Joe Smuggler can still be force sensitive and do anomalous shit based on his intentions and mental state

What does the fact that the movie keeps wildly jumping between
>Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul
>Padme fighting through the streets of Theed
>The Battle of Naboo proper, with Jar-Jar
>The space battle above Naboo with Anakin
as the climax have to do with the nu-trilogy?

Oh, i just meant how it seemed like luke had already figured things out. It felt like they back pedaled on his character, rather than respecting the journey he had already gone on.

Star Wars was a modern fairytale, with a fairytale ending. No one wants to see the sequel to cinderella where the prince is an abusive tyrant, cinderella is a shell of her former self, and her daughter leads the proletariat uprising against the monarchy. Its not necessarily a bad story, but it doesnt respect its predecessor.

>He's the fucking emperor, a glorified civil servant.
and with that one statement you show how little you truly comprehend how autocratic governments work.

when Palpatine was supreme chancellor of the Senate, yes he was just another civil servant but with a fancy title.

but he's not Supreme Chancellor anymore, he's the EMPEROR! a title that comes with it absolute power and authority and answerable to no one. sure the imperial senate was a thing but their role was downgraded to glorified advisers when Palpatine assumed the role of Emperor. Not dissimilar to Kim Jun Un's power over North Korea, the Emperor can do whatever he wants and the empire is beholden to his every whim whether they like it or not. And no! no one questions him because no one has that authority. Nor will they stand up to him either because they are fully indoctrinated to believe that he can truly do no wrong, because their own power and authority is tied-up with his and to challenge his power is to challenge their own, or because they know that if they speak out those from the first two groups will find them and kill them.

This is kinda why by Episode 6 the Emperor had gone from a cunning and insidious mastermind to a rather arrogant and power-mad tyrant, after 20 years of just getting everything you want on a silver platter, your bound to get mentally lazy.

Incidentally, that's why the Rebel Alliance is so noteworthy and concerning to Imperial authority, because they chose to stand up and call the Emperor out anyway.

>All criticism of the prequels is an attempt to shill for the mediocre new shit
What

>Is it possible to play a Sith that isn't a fucking jobber? I mean Sith are suppose to be self serving, but they're always, ALWAYS kowtowing to some other Sith.

Then how about you kill your master and take his place then, you fucking pussy-ass bitch?

Worked for Mace Windu

Don't look at this, look over there! See those movies, arn't they bad! Stop talking about how these ones are bad, look over there! Talk about that!

But no one was talking about the new movies in the first place.

But that's wrong, you retard.

Originally, there was the Force. And there were people who used the Dark Side, by corrupting the Force within them.

To provide an analogy is that imagine the Force is a giant reservoir of water. Most people just splash around in it. Some people, the Force Sensitives have water guns. Some people with the water guns said "NO FUN ALLOWED" and interfere with the people splashing around in the pool, making sure that the splashing is being done correctly. And there are bad people, who instead drink the water, pee into their guns, and shoot people with their urine.

I trust the analogy is clear.

Maul was really damn successful in the Clone Wars. He owned Mandalore and was king of the Galactic underworld.

Then Sidious REEEEE'd and put a stop to it solo.

He would ultimately meet his end against old Obi-Wan on Tatooine, who beat him in literally three strokes.

Didn't he have some kind of pseudo-redemption right at the end as well? I remember the dialogue in that scene being kind of weird.

That was Obi-Wan's plan. Maul came to tatooine, expecting that Obi-Wan would show up to fight him shortly. Instead Obi-Wan did nothing and let Maul wander around the desert for months screaming for vengence. Obi-Wan only challenged Maul when his position was revealed by Ezra.
Maul was heavily weakened by the desert, causing the short fight.
Yes and no. He didn't apologize for his actions or anyting. But he knew that Obi-Wan was there guarding the "Chosen one" (Luke), so while he was dying he asked that Kenobi train Luke to make sure that he and Savage were avenged against Sidious.

it was Mal's dying comfort that Luke would one day end the cycle of Jedi Vs. Sith, a cycle that Mal had come to resent by that point.

I think one person did, but briefly.
is free to carry it on,
Nothings stopping you. But seeing as the new films dont have sith in, and some people havent watched it yet, like me, theres nothing it can bring to a thread that is asking about Sith, is there.
And no matter how shit disney have made SW will never distract from the fact that Lucas also did ashit job with the prequals

I just wish more Sith would be like Yuthura Ban instead of moustache twirling villains.

Yes but what I was saying is that it is a retarded idea to make the "best star pilot in the galaxy" an 8-year old.

Becoming a cruel, egotistical fuck is a consequence of falling to the Dark Side. It's literally a slippery slope that slowly drags you down.

This is honestly a fantastic analogy, no B.S.

The only canon Sith that would be a moustache twirler is Sidious.

Maul was really fleshed out in the Clone Wars, we see that he was essentially kidnapped and brainwashed at a young age to be Sidious's enforcer. When he finally puts himself back together (with the help of his brother) he is driven and ambitious, but still remains genuinely affectionate to Savage, and ruthless, yet faithful, to his underlings. Pre Viszla died because he was undermining Maul's authority, but at least was given a fair fight.
The only things moustache-twirly thing he did was killing Satine.

Dooku is really deep. He felt that the Council was responsible for Qui-gonn's death because they refuse to heed his warnings about the Sith. He broke off from the council, and was then recruited by Sidious. While in charge of the separatists, he genuinely believed that he was working to further their cause.
Yes, he would have people assassinated, and would use Force to get what he wanted, but he always tried the diplomatic route first.
More moustache-twirly than Maul, but not just evil for evil's sake.

Vader is definitely not a mustache twirler. I recommend that you read his new comic series, it's really good.

No, originally there was the Force wielded by the Jedi religion to preserve peace in the Republic that was destroyed when the Sith used their Dark Side approach to using the Force to do bad things. It's not "corrupting the Force," it's falling to temptation and using the easy way to attain power that has consequences.

It's more like a bunch of kids are playing with a sprinkler attached to a hose while a parent is saying "hey, be careful that water is slippery if you go too crazy you'll get hurt" and people were cool with it. Then some kids bothered by the adult snuck off and instead opened up a fire hydrant to play in, and one kid broke a leg from falling over and a car crashed swerving to avoid the water.

Kreia is the lady in that video claiming there didn't used to be rainbows in the water.

>Maul was heavily weakened by the desert, causing the short fight.
Or maybe the real reason is that Obi Wan evolved and grew as a person, while Maul never truly recovered from his defeat and became a bitter, empty shell of a man.
Obi Wan had the moral high ground here.

Dooku also became ridiculously cruel and resentful, though. He sold an entire population of completely neutral and unarmed pacifists into slavery for no real reason and sanctioned (if not ordered) weapons tests on another pacifist and unarmed population.
He's my favorite character from the show, but he became a black hearted monster

time can erode everything, especially the heart
only naïves would think otherwise

> bad people, who instead drink the water, pee into their guns, and shoot people with their urine.
You brightened up my day user. I can't get the image of Darth Vader with a super soaker full of urine out of my head.

What I was getting at is that the Force is generally neutral and the Jedi don't use the Light side of the Force - there's no such thing - they just use the Force. The Sith use the Dark Side of the Force, but the Dark Side is not inherent to the Force itself - it is instead like a prism or filter that a Dark Side user has that turns the Force Dark.

That is a part of it, absolutely.
I recommend you watch the Rebel's recon for the episode. Every move of that fight was carefully planned.
The animators made it so that Maul tries the same tactic that worked against Qui-gon (hilt slam to forehead), but Obi-wan sees through it and ducks while slashing, bisecting Maul's saber and opening his chect in one strike.

In old canon, maybe? There were at least a dozen competing theories concerning the origin of the light and dark sides.

In new canon, no. Both sides are inherent to the force itself, both are natural uses of it. Neither is inherently more correct.

i doubt that sith can sense things that happen across galaxy like yoda does
dark side is spectacular but not more spectacular

No freelance Sith is complete without a sexy Twi'lek assassin wife.

Sidious sensed Maul's return.

The new canon is.. worthless. SW goes from I to VI.

like vador sensed luke, sibblings, relatives, they have some links, but few
yoda senses motherfucking everything

When I say "the new canon", I'm referring to anything that is currently Canon, after Disney's purgation of most of the Legends material.
Most of it is good shit outside of the sequels. Plus, they have a story group which works to make sure that everything new published is totally compliant with established canon. No weird contradictions like in Legends.

>Originally, there was the Force. And there were people who used the Dark Side, by corrupting the Force within them.

>To provide an analogy is that imagine the Force is a giant reservoir of water. Most people just splash around in it. Some people, the Force Sensitives have water guns. Some people with the water guns said "NO FUN ALLOWED" and interfere with the people splashing around in the pool, making sure that the splashing is being done correctly. And there are bad people, who instead drink the water, pee into their guns, and shoot people with their urine.

Clone Wars has explicitly stated that there is a Light Side, though, represented by complete selflessness and passivity

GL literally put no more thought into the force besides "its space magic"

The autistic fanbase has put way more thought into this than was ever there.

No, the Jedi specifically expressed that there was a light side and a dark side. The Force is the Force. I mean, it's basically different philosophies defined by their respective groups.

It's not like the Nightsisters are defined as dark side users in their culture, they are labeled that in reference to the Jedi and Sith.

I guess that depends how much stock you put into the words of the Father.

Yeah, well, nu-SW can suck a dick. I didn't spend a dime to see TFA, and I refuse to watch Rogue One or TLJ. If I ever run an SW, it will be with my interpretation: one Force, but being evil gives you Dark Side powers.

There should absolutely be differences, yeah.

Rogue one is legitimately great.
TFA and TLJ suck ass, but don't let them ruin the franchise

>I hate what the prequels did to the perception of the jedi order
I kind of liked that about TLJ. Luke calls out the prequel-era Jedi Order for its failings, and several things imply that it had calcified from the original intent.

...

[spoilers]That’s because TLJ is good and there’s just a small number of contrarians mad because it isn’t their headcanon.[/spoilers]

Nah it was a genuinely bad movie. Seeing it with my niece, son, sister, uncle and azn wife with their hapa kid and parents they all bagged it. I don't know what demographic outside of "kids of any gender 5-14, 20-30, asians with that ugly chick and 40+ year olds who saw the original films in theaters" they wanted but they didn't hit any of them lol

I think you got it correct, and spelled it out very well. I agree with you, but I think that as star-wars moved further out of GL's direct control, the authors started moving from a eastern conception of the Force to a Western one. I think Kreia is a perfect example of this change. If we accept that Balance means an omnipotent force behind then rebellion has its merit. But if we go with GL's original eastern idea of balance Kreia's logic breaks down and becomes self serving rebellion that only hurts everyone around her.

personal, I think more interesting questions and plots can come out of the eastern interpretation of the force. Once you disconnect the "sides" of force from personifying evil and good, maters of personal morality stand in sharper relief.

And literally everyone I talked to likes it and doesn't understand the hate at all. And that crosses age, gender, political, and geographic boundaries. Literally the only people hating it I ever see is online, though I have one friend that didn't see it even now because he thought they were going to make everyone grey Jedi.

I'm actually looking most forward to episode X now.

starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vectivus

>I hate what the prequels did to the perception of the jedi order

I don't. The Jedi and Sith being assholes is good and adds moral nuance.

>The only canon Sith that would be a moustache twirler is Sidious.

If you avoid the cowshit stories of the EU he's actually pretty solid on logic and motive and won't fuck with you so long as you're competent. All the dumber that in the nu canon the Empire's full of shits for brains from top to bottom and the Emperor who himself is now a shit for brain keeps it that way because hes just so darn evil lul, even though in the EU the Emperor hated weakness and believed his Empire was truly strengthening the galaxy.

>Rogue one is legitimately great.

TFA and TLJ are the of the Star Wars franchise, but Rogue One is legit one of the worst scifi movies in general made in the last two decades. It's so fucking horrible from top to bottom and all it brings is visual effects. It's the equivalent of watching heavily CGI'd and exploding keys dangle for two hours.

>wanting to actually play the ronin/lone wolf character with all the anti-social tomfuckery of a sith
>In an rpg group, an inherently social game

You suck and your ideas suck.

Personally, I've always wanted to play a Dark Sider who clawed their way back to the light of their own accord and are trying to be a good person. You've always got Jedi falling all over the place and there are some redemption stories but when was the last time you had a dude walk into the Jedi Temple, get on his knees, and go "oh god please help me save me from myself"?

Luke was Obi-wan and yoda's attempt to redeem the jedi order.

They specifically didn't teach Luke the dogmatic aspect of the old jedi order and wanted him to be freed of the old baggage.

the ST should have been about Luke establishing a new jedi order without the flaw of the old one.

Actually, if you paid attention, he won by tricking Maul into thinking he was using his master's battle stance, and he goes to kill him using the same trick he used way back when, and Obi-wan BAITED THE FUCK OUTTA HIM LIKE A DARK SOULS PVP BATTLE AND CUTS HIM DOWN

Also because in that quick passing moment, Maul figured out Ben's purpose on Tattooine and Ben panicked, drawing his weapon

It's actually WORSE than that- Remember how the handmaiden mentions that theoretically the Jedi Rhetoric on the force giving each an every person a destiny would mean that free will would not exist meaning that the Jedi Teachings in their entirety were actually in fact, pointless?

Remember how the force is mentioned to be 'life' itself, and Kreia's 'kill everybody' plan via echos still had the potential to leave-non force sensitive life in the universe left over?

Remember how Nihilus literally becomes a Wound in the force that becomes a walking-life sucking black hole of entropy, that was even described as being something capable of destroying all life?

The Force is literally the Exact same being as the Elder god from the Legacy of Karin series- It's literally a Parasite that has subsumed life itself to use the cosmic expanse of it's being "The Force is an energy field that BINDS all living things together" people that become one with it, literally become a part of it's being, and the War between the Jedi and Sith is nothing more than how it feeds itself- the same fucking thing with Legacy of Kain's wheel of fate- Nihilus actually, by merely existing WAS WOUNDING IT.

Hell, there's even that older tale about how Vader was destined to Kill Obi-Wan and Sidious becoming the literal Single agent of the Force in the universe, meaning he basically gets the same kind of position that bloody time-traveller in Legacy of Kain did- the chosen one crap after all resulted in the entire Galactic Civil War and the Empire and all the lives taken to feed the machine, then luke fucked up again because he hired Jedi with emotional attachments and then they fell themselves.

Every time somebody brings up KotoR2, I am reminded of how dumb it is. I wonder if Obsidian's offices are fedora shaped.

Same as entire Star Wars which is literally simples fairytale to gain fame since fucking Brothers Grimm. (With exception of few really good expanded things, but if 3000 people would make stuff from Brothers Grimm stuff, there would be traces of genius in some of those other works too)