Hey Veeky Forums, how would I go about making a nation that is focused mainly on scientific discoveries and technological advancement in a fantasy setting?
For context, the largest nation in my setting is an empire with technology based around late-renaissance and early antiquity science mixed in with more fantastical elements, like alchemy and steam powered war machines like pic-related. It's not full steampunk nor magitek and I want it to keep a fairly medieval-aesthetic in its design. It's still a work in progress but I want their actions to be morally grey most of the time, have a hatred for magic and magic users (because magic to them is inherently illogical and chaotic as opposed to science) and that they believe themselves to be the only true nation that humanity should be apart of. The other nations they war against include a NotArabia! middle-eastern setting with mages that can summon genies into battle and a steppe nomad-style horde that has druids, forest magic and beastmen at their disposal.
How would I go about fleshing out a faction like this, it's government, military and goals without devolving them into edgy atheists or having the other nations be all "technology is bad, religion is good" with no good reason.
Let me ask you this, why would this nation be the one exception to magic compared to everything else? Generally, magic would need to be inaccessible in some shape or form. Like maybe the land has too much cold iron, making the entire area has an entire anti-magic field or maybe the local religion has a ban on practicing magic due to one too many incidents involving demons. Lastly, maybe someone way more advanced is trying to push them towards a direction that may benefit their needs (Either to help them out in the future or eat them in the future depending how these precursors react to magic.)
Dominic Russell
I think the breakthrough should be the shift from alchemy as a form of magic into chemistry as a way of controlling their world. Sure, if you like airships and they make sense in your setting, throw them in. It's almost a given that any race resembling humans will turn science into drastic mechanical advances.
I guess the tough part is figuring out how to work magic in. Does it replace electricity? Or maybe replace entire mechanisms (ex whole plumbing and sewage systems built on vertical piping with anti-gravity enchantments). Interesting ideas in this thread so far
Elijah Cook
Their rationale towards magic is a combination of the two ideas you mentioned earlier, in that they're surrounded by mineral rich mountains whose large deposits of iron and black iron make it difficult for non-demonic natural magic to manifest (which is also why the nomads are at war with them, the vast industrial sites and iron shipments are killing the forests). And the second reason is that the civilization before them, which they believe themselves to be the sole inheritor of their legacy, was destroyed after they began dabbling in perverted demonic rituals, hence the disdain for magic in general. It's this sentiment that puts them at odds with the other nations, for they believe the spirits they commune with are actually malicious demons that seek mankind's destruction.
Magic doesn't act as the fuel for the technology in this setting, as mentioned this nation hates magic, but the fuel is instead generated chemically. Hence alchemy's importance, as you say, it goes from an uncommon art during the dark ages to a well explored scientific field designed to brew potions and fuel for weapons and war machines.
Either way, the ideas in this thread are really helping, keep at it, i'd love to shamelessly steal incorporate any other ideas into my setting.
Christian Sanders
>steppe nomads >druids and forest magic Don't forget to give your desert people powers over water and snow.
Carter Cruz
I like this idea in a Dark Sun kind of way. The rulers literally control all the water. Causing a blizzard in a desert is a good way to completely fuck a rival faction.
Jordan Morales
I probably should have prefaced that by saying the faction is comprised of both nomads native to the steppe and druids that migrated there after being hunted out of the homeland by the empire. So it's a joint culture really of horseback riders and heavily armored, druidic warriors.
I really like this idea. The rulers have some sort of magical control over water that keeps citizens in line and can occasionally form a magical cabal to use said magic to create blizzards that fuck with invaders. I like it, gives another reason for the empire to hate magic as well.
Levi Morgan
Well, remember what people like to forget for starters: the early humanists and enlightenment thinkers weren't atheist. There was a questioning of the CHURCH, but not of the concept of God.
Reason with me now. In Christian theology, we were created in God's image. All of our gifts are gifts from God. Human intellect is itself, a gift from God, and an expression of his love for us. Therefore, the elevation of these gifts is acknowledgement, appreciation, and celebration of God's gifts. The idea isn't "FUCK GOD, I'M ENLIGHTENED!" *tips fedora*, it's "FUCK YEAH GOD, I'M ENLIGHTENED!" *tips miter*
Rather than making them anti-religious, make them anti-church. That is to say, they're Omnists, and believe in complete freedom of religious expression, as these are all sprung from the same enlightened origin point of a supreme being. They see churchs and organized facades as a means of control by temporal forces, or by non-divine charades such as the nature spirits and genies of the enemy. They aren't irreligious, they are THE MOST RELIGIOUS, with the caveat that they absolutely reject any form of religion that attempts to curtail or control human behavior.
Morality to such a people would be based on pragmatism and health, rather than concepts of right wrong or punishment. It is good to act good, because you were meant to act good, and that promotes good spiritual and physical health. The sick and impoverished have moral failings that need to be addressed (an actual Victorian concept), because it obviously follows that Good follows Good, and if they were Good they would be reaping the benefits! Furthermore, good behavior is enforced by the law of reciprocation, not the idea of some divine paternal figure bitch slapping you - pic related.
Also, as user notes: Your world sounds VERY MUCH like Rise of Legends, complete with a magical desert faction that summons Djinn
Brayden Gomez
I want to follow up by saying that having read the thread further: specifically >they believe themselves to be the sole inheritor of their legacy, was destroyed after they began dabbling in perverted demonic rituals
Is that they may simply see the spirit forms and djinn that other factions utilize and worship(?) as nothing more than demons in disguise, or by another name. Again, another actual feature of early Christianize efforts. Local spirits either became saints or agents of God, or where more appropriate, the Devil and his demons.
Jonathan Ward
It would also make sense why water magic is the only magic in the kingdom. It's the only magic people use there.
Aaron Sanders
The fact that left-radicalism with the religiousity of Thomas Munzter would eventually give way to the atheism of Karl Marx seems weird at a glance, but makes more sense if you put it in perspective. Many of the protesters that overthrew the regimes of the Eastern Bloc used slogans and songs reminiscent of the official propaganda, and most opposed to the American status quo today use the argument that the existing system of "democracy" isn't "democratic" enough, at least not in what they think these ideas implies.
Nathaniel Sullivan
I had never heard of Rise of Legends before this thread and the Djinn summons originated as a stupid reference to stands from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure before I realised "hey this could work."
As for your response, that sounds like a really neat idea. They still have a god and religion but they still engage in the understanding of science and technology because it was their god's gift of knowledge and intelligence that allows them to do such things. And to elaborate, this may answer your inquires in , this specific theology clashes with those of the other nations. The Eastern warriors worship old, forest and wilderness-related gods and serve to protect the earth (or the green as they call it) from the industrial Empire. But to the imperials, they see a group of backward savages who commune with forest spirits that seek to control and manipulate them for their own causes, just like what the demons did to the first civilization. The desert dwellers also worship a god who supposedly controls the water, and the theocratic rulers use their influence over the distribution of water to control order. Put this with the magical soldiers with "Genie STANDO powers" and you can see how the Empire sees this nation as a church-run, demon using dictatorship that crushes the free will and unity of humans. In short, the Empire sees other nations that hold differing religious views that, to them, involves malicious spirits inadvertently controlling and forcing humans for their own gain, which opposes both their history and their god's notion of giving his subjects free will and choice to do as they wish.
Thanks mate, your feedback was great and really helped, this thread is going better than I imagined.
Jayden Perez
you can also see this play out in the power struggles of the French Revolution, Robspierre heatedly opposed the de-christianization faction, even though they ALL opposed the Catholic Church, which they saw as an outside force trying to control them. Not 100% without merit, as the most persistent and ardent partisans against the revolutionary regime would turn out to be the hardcore French Catholics, rather than the nobility, as they saw the Revolution as fucking with divine order. As a result you had them fighting over what to replace Cathocism with, first the De-Christianizers acting like the best/worst of a right wing protestants fantasy about evil liberals and literally tearing down and desecrating churchs and rebuilding them as temples to the Cult of Reason. Then Robspierre shot back by having all of them liquidated and replacing the Cult of Reason with his own Cult of the Supreme Being, which was this weird vaguely deist *thing* where virtue was the highest order of human effort and republican patriotism an expression of virtue
Landon Ross
This is about the most dull idea for a fantasy culture I can think off. However, if you insist on it, I'd recommend checking out Naushicaa of the Valley of Wind: The manga (not the movie, as good as it is, you want the manga here). Take a gander at how the manga potray's the kingdom of Tolmekia (Torumekia)
Grayson Wilson
This. It really bugs me when there are random kingdoms that reject core concepts of the setting. It's like they exist just to be contrarian.
Dylan Nguyen
you mean like France completely rejected the fuedalism EVERYONE was following during the revolution? Or Russia rejecting the capitalist market economies EVERYONE was using? Or China and Japan rejecting TECHNOLOGY IN GENERAL?
Aiden Evans
>during the revolution >Or Russia rejecting the capitalist market economies EVERYONE was using (that were showing serious problems at the time) >China and Japan rejecting TECHNOLOGY IN GENERAL (literal lying)
Feudalism/capitalism aren't core to our setting. Technology is definitely core to our setting and literally no one rejects technology.
Sebastian Torres
OP here, can I ask what's core to the fantasy setting to you and how my own rejects this? Genuinely curious.
Charles Gonzalez
The fantastic.
Landon Ortiz
Is it because I only mentioned humans? If so the setting also has orcs, dragons, beastmen, demons, batmen, lizardmen, dinosaurs and magic. I'm sure that fairly fantastical, I just didn't include them because I figured it wouldn't be relevant to the conversation.
Dylan Sanchez
Did anyone say that human-only settings are lame?
James Bell
Well no, but apart from that reasoning, I fail to see how someone could say that a setting with druid horse riders and genie summoning middle easterns isn't "fantastic".
Jason Bell
Where did someone say the setting wasn't fantastic?
Leo Hill
This guy here in response to my inquiry of "What does my setting reject that is core to fantasy."
Chase Torres
Oh that was a misunderstanding.
You see talks about a single kingdom while you for some reason extrapolate that to the entire setting. Your irrational extrapolation was ignored. A foolish thing to do, but some beautiful minds are trained to ignore completely retarded statements for it helps people think highly of others.
Elijah Reyes
Oh I see. But wait, does that mean people are unable to build and create well-developed kingdoms based around core concepts purely because they don't incorporate themes commonly found in high fantasy that other people enjoy. If so, well on one hand you can't please everyone and that's fine, but on the other, that seems like a very limited view to possess of the fantasy genre and creators dabbling in it, especially considering that when I created this faction I had no intention to "bash" (for lack of a better term) traditional fantasy kingdoms.
Also are you calling me retarded?
Grayson Morgan
...
Dylan Martinez
Well, now I wanna reinstall Rise of Legends, Bump for OP and other posters, I guess?
William Jones
you're not the only one, i wish we had a remastered ed or a spiritual succesor in recent years
