Does Veeky Forums allow the Grey Jedi at their table? I do, and I don't understand why anyone doesn't...

Does Veeky Forums allow the Grey Jedi at their table? I do, and I don't understand why anyone doesn't. They just make much more sense than the sterile, robotic jedi when it comes to making a hero, and dark side powers are just more fun if they're not locked behind an arbitrary "you have to be THIS evil to throw lightning" barrier.

If you're smart enough to want something more than cartoonish black and white morality you're too smart for Star Wars.

Not as such, but unaffiliated force users or force adepts are fine, of course.

Also, the retard that wrote that is, well, retarded and doesn't know anything about the force or the jedi creed.

The Jedi Order of the prequels had degenerated to the point where they didn't notice taking orders from a Sith Lord. Which is actually a good thing, game-wise: it adds a potential source of conflict and complications which can be tapped when desired and pretty much just ignored otherwise.

Also what, exactly speaking, does keeping a "balance" mean? If a planet is peaceful and happy, will your Gray Jedi lead a bunch of mercenaries to raid it because people are insufficiently miserable? Or did you mean balance between harmony and chaos - does your character try to keep societies in whatever they think the sweet spot for rate of change is?

In all honesty, when I hear "Gray Jedi" it brings to mind a version of Ani-Vader who's delusions are packed by the DM or a Jedi who's too good for the Order - a special snowflake either way. Now, a delusional character might be interesting, but I don't think that's what you were going for.

>sterile, robotic jedi

This is a meme. The Jedi were never shown to be this way. Sterile comes from the fact that lots of the environments where CGI, robotic from the fact that the Jedi council scenes where a bunch of calm people talking.
But all through the prequels the Jedi are shown to have friends, make jokes and generally have feelings.

Grey Jedi will never be anything but shit because they're based on the garbage idea that there needs to be balance between good and evil, or harmony and disharmony.

That depends what they mean by 'grey jedi'.

Grey jedi don't exist as an order and do not have a code. They're non-Order jedi for some reason or another. It's about a breach of doctrine, nothing else. Nothing like being "in the middle" because there is no such thing.

Jolee Bindo in KotOR was a grey jedi because he'd rejected the stiff jedi order. But he was still a jedi, if heretical.

>If a planet is peaceful and happy, will your Gray Jedi lead a bunch of mercenaries to raid it because people are insufficiently miserable?

This is how I break it down.
>Jedi: let's work to further improve these people's lives!
>Sith: this planet has value to me, I will conquer it.
>Grey Jedi: drinking a beer like a normal fucking person.

Pic related, origional Grey Jedi.

If you want to play as someone who has essentially "outsmarted" the setting you're probably the sort of person who gets really frustrated when anything remotely negative happens to your characters.

Grey Jedi are a bad meme for people who think a balanced diet is half of it being cocaine.

You know, I don't agree. The Jedi weren't sterile or robotic, they were just trying to cultivate the right mindset to use the Force. The point is that the Jedi did their best to limit attachments and hone their mind and body, because you don't want someone with the power of the Force who's tempted to use it for his own gain.

A 'Grey Jedi' is actually just a dude with some talent in the Force who isn't Jedi-trained, but isn't corrupted yet. The problem is that it's a very slippery slope to the Dark Side. Hell, if you're taking the new movies into account, Luke himself - despite half-assed Jedi training - backslides dramatically when he gives in to fear and considers murdering his own nephew. And this is Luke Skywalker we're talking about.

I think it's shit characterization, but that's part of canon now. We have to live with it. (Also, anyone who goes "I can use dark powers and not be corrupted, because I'm smarter than those morons" is someone who is going to be taught a very painful lesson from his own hubris.)

No. Grey is weakness. Too weak to make the sacrifices demanded by committing fully to the Light, and too weak to bear the recriminations that come with fully embracing the Dark.

I'm pretty sure force lightning actually runs on pure suffering or something, which is why only truly evil fuckers can do it. If you're causing mass suffering and practically devouring the cosmic essence of happiness in the universe just to zap some inconsequential cannon fodder for the sole reason of, "it looks cool" when a force push would have accomplished the same thing, you have no right to call yourself a Grey Jedi, you're just a particularly laid back Sith.

There are dozens of other force user traditions in the background. Why mess up an established one?

"Grey Jedi" are just an excuse for teenagers to make Jedi who choke people and throw lightening and do other edgelord shit but aren't evil, man.

>freedom of the dark side
>Moral compass of the light

This is the definition of Mary Sue

>but that's part of canon now. We have to live with it.
only if you're a faggot who cares about canon. Run Expanded Universe like a smart person

>Okay so my character used to be a jedi but then he turned to the dark side.
>But then he was redeemed by another jedi so he's a good guy now.
>But he still has all these cool dark side force powers that he can use even though he shouldn't.
>But he totally never does so unless he has too. Or someone's life is in danger. Or the bad guys are asking for it. Or its Tuesday.
Its the same shit every time. This is like the Star Wars RPG equivalent of the guy who tries to justify his character owning a flamethrower or a machine gun in Call of Cthulhu.

This.

OPs image sums it up pretty well.

Also, I'd like the idea of playing a Jedi/Sith first and a force user second. If you throw those philosophies away then you're basically just some guy with force powers.

I understand the flashy lightsabers and the force stuff draws your attention, but there's more to playing a Jedi than this. Work on your diplomacy and restraint.

Grey Jedi are the ultra Marines of starwars.

Not if they have had enough character development that it out strides the xp at chargen.

If your character has been trained by both jedi and sith and we are just doing basic characters, shit is rejected. It is like the people who want to play war veterans who have seen years of combat at campaign start. Also, if the Grey Jedi has nothing to do and is just some jaded fuck who wants to explore with a lightsaber and sith lightning with no motivation, it is rejected.

Just let everyone be Superman and play grups

This is the origin of 100% of all grey Jedi. It's a cop out for people who don't want to actually make a character and just want to go around an rpg setting being themselves with an energy sword.

>war veterans who have seen years of combat at campaign start.

These are fine in other games if the campaign isn't combat-focused and they don't try to steer everything towards combat. A decorated soldier, but a broken man.

The concept of the Light Side was a mistake.

Only the Force and the Dark Side.

It makes sense in setting that those force users who saw the corruption in many others would practice discipline and restraint while encouraging others to do the same. Perhaps at first in a way to avoid using it entirely, but ultimately to try and do good with it in moderation.

The concept of a gray or dark Jedi always bugged me in general. The Jedi are an order of space monk warriors. You're either a full on Jedi monk cult member, or you're not. If you ain't in the club you ain't. If you want to be a random force sensitive person go for it just don't pretend you're a jedi.

Grey Jedi were a mistake.
They were mentioned in one item description in KOTOR 2 and now every deviant art teenager and thatguy who doesn't understand the setting faps over the concept.

Yeah, and that concept should have never been put into place. It turns the Jedi from badass cool guys to lame motherfuckers.

I would just say it needs to be a gray Jedi only campaign. No is special snowflake if everyone is snowflake.

Like I don't let just one Mouse person in my BW campaigns, if we mice we ALL mice now.
So just make everyone a group of renegade Jedis out to GET SHIT DONE because they've stopped by buerocracy too much.

I hate Kreia so fucking much.

I disagree and I think you're a silly person.

>t. Sith

Sounds like grey jedi are basically non-college trained Wizards in Warhammer Fantasy.

Sure they might not be corrupted now, but they're going to regret not having training at fending off the dark forces when they inevitably roll that die that says their magic summoned a daemon.

Serenity is not opposed with peace.

>playing something to show off how much smarter than the setting you are

Fuck off back to your autistic Harry Potter fanfiction, Eliezer?

>Prequels and EU ruined Jedi so badly that people now want to play force users without being Jedi

...

I'd allow them, but I also realize they're for people who want to play special snowflakes and not have to deal with the drawbacks of being jedi or sith

It's theoretically interesting, with elements of ronin stories. In practice, it's people that want to use force lightning without being evil, which is really borish.

...

I'm still running with the head canon that Jedi can use force lighting. They just don't because electrocuting someone to death is fucked up.

I know right one of the first things we are told is "Feel don't think." so much of the really difficult baggage is not from the OT, this is because we are not given details of the strange mystical Force but all the proceeding material just seems incapable of leaving well enough alone.

Kreia wasn't even a Grey jedi. You just didn't pay attention

I don't know why you think that, because of how the Force and Dark Side work, lightning is most likely analogous to the Crucio or Killing Curse from Harry Potter (eg. hating someone to death).

That's not even the problem. I can actually jive with the idea that the existence of the force spawning all these diverse religions and philosophies aside from the Jedi/Sith. It'd be kind of ridiculous if there were only two ways people thought about the force.

The problem comes when people see these alternatives, and use it as free licence not to have any kind of philosophy at all. They just want force powers without thought, discipline, or any sense of consequence (personal or otherwise).

So yeah, Jedi can use lightning but don't because it's fucked up to zap someone with lighting. Jedi aren't magically incapable of feeling hatred.

Well, it's non canon now but there were examples of what you've just mentioned, and it's mostly what you said.

I don't think it's neurotypical and requires a specific personality to regularly muster.

Yeah, so any Jedi can do it, they just don't want to because zapping someone with lighting is fucked up.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

I'm okay with it so long as the Jedi were all-inclusive.

"Are you a cool guy? Boom, you are a Jedi."

"Are you an asshole? Oooo, you are a Sith."

I dislike how greys are somehow touted as being the morally superior choice. In my mind you are a force adept who can be good or evil it's just you don't have the specific powers and abilities of the two major factions because you weren't taught by them

Are you saying that most Jedi were not neurotypical, with respect to their baseline stress levels and dark triad traits?

I mean sure, anyone can theoretically become an armed robber; but many armed robbers aren't have lower baseline stress levels, higher narcissism measures, etc than a typical non-criminal person. I'm proposing that just as most people are not psychologically capable of becoming an armed robber, most Force users are not psychologically capable of hating someone to death.

Anyone is psychologically capable of becoming an armed robber. They just need to find that reason to be an armed robber. Any Jedi is capable of using force lighting, they just need the reason.

Psychological profiling has repeatedly found violent criminals to be aberrant in the factors I have mentioned above. Do some research instead of running your mouth about things you obviously don't know about.

I agree, but that's what people think a "gray jedi" should be - someone that snarks at both light and darksiders and constantly mocks their setting.

Actually it comes from the prequel trilogy where the council basically said "emotions are bad, love leads to suffering".

>The chaotic neutral of Jedi.
Literal 'I can do whatever I want with no consequences' kind of chaotic neutral.

Overblown and out of context.
Letting your feelings control you is what they're against.
Jedi are shown to have relationships and feelings throughout the prequels.

The kind of Grey Jedi in OP annoys me about as much as ultra dichotomous dark side/light side thing. Can't I just be a space wizard with a "lasersword" and be an OK guy, not some homicidal dick or space monk?

No, that's sort of the point.

Jedi should have stayed space knights who are supposed to do good and protect the galaxy while being able to use the force.

Everything to do with balance should be drug out back, shot and burned.

That's literally the Grey Jedi in OP, user

Which is stupid and annoy. And something that is ignored by atleast half the writers who touch the setting because it's so stupid and annoying.

The code bit seems to indicate some sort of strong tradition which all grey jedi should follow.

That's kinda the price you pay for your laser sword and magic powers.

People just want to be cool and overpowered and unconstrained. It's like the Paladin Problem all over again.
> Why can't I be like a CN Paladin of like Rothbardian Libertarianism?
Because that isn't what a Paladin *is*. Being a paladin means constraints. Put on yourself. A DM shouldn't put Paladins in dicky situations just to fuck with them. But the pally must avoid fucking stacies, being devout, etc. People just want good stuff without the price that comes with it. And that shit leads you straight to the dark side.

"Commit a violent robbery within twenty-four hours or I will brutally kill your entire family."
"Sorry, I'm not psychologically capable of committing violent robberies."
"Oh shit, didn't think of that. Sorry mate, here are your kids."

What's it like to know your undergraduate psychology degree is trash and your entire discipline is crumbling away under a replication crisis?

im ok with light grey. i dont allow them if they are used to use dark side abilities with impunity.

>"Commit a violent robbery within twenty-four hours or I will brutally kill your entire family."
There's people who still wouldn't do it, you know.

Sure, but not everybody who did would be psychologically aberrant.

Hang yourself sithfag.

Good cannot countenance Evil
They are diametrically opposed.
If you want "dem cool sith powers" it mean's you're evil.

>I just wanna be a regular guy with super powers lmao

It's not very interesting. If you can just be some asshole it doesn't really explain how the Jedi or Sith philosophies got off the ground to begin with.

Ok, but with your paladin example they aren't the only people in their system with special powers. And I believe that only 1st and 2nd Ed paladins were particularly more powerful than most other similar classes, after that the code and such was pretty much fluff.

>They just make much more sense than the sterile, robotic jedi when it comes to making a hero

Those Jedi weren't doing it right. Luke proves them wrong in the original films.

By your weird definition I guess he was a grey Jedi?

It's hard to take grey jedi seriously when they're wrong.

Do you think crime works like Hollywood where it's sympathetic people in a bad place, or orphans stealing food to survive?

Crime goes down during recessions. No, the people that commit crime, violent ones especially, generally do so because they enjoy it. That burst of dopamine satisfaction you get from a job well done; these people get from hurting people. You have also sorts of criminal profiling, and psychological studies to this end: that habitual violent crime is not neurotypical behavior.

I mean with EU decanonized none of that is explained any way. And in EU the lore is all over the place anyway.

>Passion, Yet emotion
>Serenity, Yet peace
>"of balance" used three times in the same fucking stanza after already using it twice in the first
>entire stanza about goddamn exterior lighting
who the fuck wrote this shit?

Nice to see you try to slip "habitual" in there to try and move the goalposts. Tear up your degree and get a real job digging ditches.

You seem to be suggesting some retarded environmental determinism, so I think you are the one digging ditches.

Spoony?

>this fucking Gray Jedi bullshit again
god fucking dammit, I see this shit all over facebook and its goddamn stupid.

>They just make much more sense
They make no sense based on the lore of the setting. The fact that moral absolutism is not a thing in the real world doesn't change the fact that it is a central theme and immutable mechanism within the lore of Star Wars.

>Jedi constantly proven wrong.
>Sith constantly redeemed.
>Muh moral objectivism

Holy shit another person literally too stupid for Star Wars.

>Inb4 George L-Lucas said so!

I don't like the dark side being absolutely evil, but I also don't like it being able to be used without repercussions. It's supposed to be the easy, selfish way to get everything you want, so it should be tempting, but not corrupting.
I suppose I could see a "good guy who uses the dark side" as being analogous to a berserker, where they have to restrain themselves with sheer force of will to avoid flying off the handle completely, and even then it'd have its consequences.
"Grey Jedi" is a dumb term, though.

Le supreme intellectual.

People always forget that the original "grey Jedi" were Light Side force users who rejected the Code of the Jedi and followed their own personal morality in dealing with situations. That's why Jolee Bindo never went around Force Lightning people for the hell of it; you're not a True Neutral sort of Force Druid, you're a Chaotic Good Force user contrasted to the Jedi's Lawful Good or the Sith's Lawful Evil.

Going by what what the OT said about Jedi, yeah, you sure can.

Fortunately a lot of us SW fags want gray morality and hate the black-white narrative Disney's pushing.

>Disney
>Black and White
Are you fucking high? Disney's new canon has been all about establishing how things aren't black and white and how morality is relative to your own perspective.

>mfw just play a grey jedi as one that doesn't really see eye to eye with the jedi order

What's all this about people using grey jedi as "force lightning and force choke with no baggage"? That's some bullshit every way you slice it, can't imagine a GM being okay with it.

The stupid thing about Disney's black-white morality isn't that black-white morality and absolutism exist, it's that the characters who are on one side of the fence or another are never challenged in that.

Star Wars has made it clear since the beginning: there's a light side and a dark side. Light side good, Dark side bad. That was never up for debate. The question was always "how will the characters be challenged and how will they react to being challenged?" Will Luke fall to the DS after his failure in the cave? How is Anakin tempted to fall?

The reason Disney SW sucks isn't because Light/Dark exists and is a theme, but because our main characters are literally never personally challenged and are never tempted by the other side. With the exception of Kylo Ren choosing not to blow up Leia himself, everyone who is LS is squarely LS and will never have their personal beliefs challenged. This makes it dull.

Except one's power and connection to the force comes directly from how you treat your emotions. So if you're a "chill" dude who doesn't care about anything and has no convictions, then your connection to the force is going to be too weak to pick up a rock.

Disney's doing the dumb Star Wars grey morality. With there literally being a "light side" and a "dark side" and that having a bit of both is balance.

That's what I got from TFA anyway. I haven't bothered watching the new one.

Only if you think Del Toro's character is anything but a meme or that Kylo saying "screw the sith" means he's going to stop doing evil things.

Disney's new canon is about nothing more than trashing every bit of the old lore as quickly as possible. Occasionally the names "sith" and "jedi" get caught in the crossfire.

i will take Rose and Holdo over Giant Space Cancer Anus of the Dark side any day

its cool bro, Yoda has been shown to have at least the ability to stop and control force lightning,
and thats not mentioning ghost yoda

Dude, the EU is what did that shit. Disney is pushing the absolute morality as hard as they possibly can.

That's not what I got from Snoke at all

They turned the Empire into a literal hate machine made to make people suffer just because.

You know, sometimes I wonder if Force Lightning is sort of like the One Ring. As in, the One Ring clearly isn't the kind of artifact that has stats. I always got the impression that Palpatine had Force Lightning - not because it was a great weapon - but because he wanted to kill Luke in the most agonizing, horrible way possible.

I mean, he could probably have just flung Luke to his death or broken his neck, but he specifically chose to electrocute him. (At the same time, it's always really interesting to me that Palpatine was willing to die to turn Luke. I'm pretty sure Luke would've been able to cut the Emperor down, but by all accounts the Emperor would have been okay with that - Because it would mean a Sith victory anyway.)

That code is caked into speshul snowflakery and edge.
What's with this codes shit. Everyone has a code now. Just treat the Force as a philosophy and do whatever, you don't need to be a preacher to be a grey jedi or whatever the fuck