Non-Spellcaster BBEG

Why is the big bad of campaigns always the 20th level Wizard? Why not other classes?

A fighter leading his army from the front with raw strength and tactical genius
A bard who with music and persuasion has tricked the world into following him so now he can play the song that tears the world apart
A rogue whose empire of crime has him running the kingdom without anyone ever knowing
A cleric pretending to speak for the good gods using the power of the evil

I know you see other BBEGs from time to time, but they're usually the pawns of bigger badder spellcasting types. I'd love to hear ideas/examples of non-spellcaster big bads.

>Why is the big bad of campaigns always the 20th level Wizard?
I actually don't have this experience at all, in those of my campaigns which did have a BBEG, in the first one it was a high level female rogue, who was pretty much a leader of gypsy terrorist organisation, in the second it was a military leader and in the third it was, well, a witch, so I guess this kind of counts, but there was also an eldritch evil to defeat which was sort of "the real" BBEG

Shit GM's imo

Since you mentioned specific terminology I'll assume you're referring to D&D here
>A fighter leading his army from the front with raw strength and tactical genius
Because wading through a large number of weak enemies in D&D gets boring very quickly so the GM is limited in how much the fighter can use his army and still be fun & high-level fighters alone don't provide a very interesting challenge. You could make this interesting by having the players engage him in large-scale military conflicts with forces of their own, but at that point, you're playing a wargame, not D&D.
>A bard who with music and persuasion has tricked the world into following him so now he can play the song that tears the world apart.
How is that not another high-level spellcaster? It's not a bad plot but it's not massively different from what you're trying to replace.
>A rogue whose empire of crime has him running the kingdom without anyone ever knowing
Sounds like it would involve a lot of investigation, negotiation and social reform, all things D&D is not generally about
>A cleric pretending to speak for the good gods using the power of the evil
Other than being really easy to foil in D&D thanks to alignment and the gods being super obvious real things, this one is pretty good

Only kin of the devil would be fluent in the dark arts

>"I want non-spellcasters!"
>mentions bards and clerics

Consider a level 20 monk villain. If the party tries to fuck with them early, they just use quivering palm on them and hold their lives ransom to make them do vile things for him.

In my games I've had a few, trying to avoid "evil wizard" tropes.

>Bard
Silent BBEG that was more a behind-the-scenes sort of character, backstory is they recieved a glimpse of the future and saw that despite their triumphs, they would be forgotten. With a giant ego to satisfy, they set about solving this issue by over the scope of decades manipulating each of the players lives, including things like inspiring them to go places, puttings items or people on their path or giving motivation via killing loved ones, to create the best party of heroes possible, whilst also using the same tactics to create the greatest villain for this story, before setting them against eachother. Throughout the campaign he would regularly appear in my descriptions (A halfling bard), even interacting with the party to ask what they thought about the events unfolding, but none of them cottoned on. Eventually, after the "heroes" won he wrote up their story and became a legendary author- but it wasn't enough, so he silently left to go to another country to create another tale, just in case.

it has also to do with DnD being very combat focused, and its combat getting worse the more participents there are, and the easiest way of cutting down on necessary mobs to give the BBEG the strongest tools, and the strongest tools being spells

The amount of power-creep in terms of spellcasting in D&D means two things
>A max-level spellcaster by nature offers the widest varieties and challenge for for encounters
and
>A max-level spellcaster absolutely represents an immediate threat on a global level if he so chooses

It just makes sense. A crime boss or an ambitious general are frankly small potatoes compared to the motherfucker who can stop time. That's not even getting into the fact a high level caster is innately geared towards tapping into the non-player-related magical forces in the world like taking over Hell or some shit.

things a level 20 wizard can do in D&D 5e:
>see into the future enough to not be surprised by anything
>open a portal between any two locations or planes of existence
>Imprison a target in; an unbreakable energy sphere far below the earth, a gemstone, bound in unbreakable and immovable chains or in their own pocket dimension
>turn anything into anything else, if you use this on yourself to become a different creature you also retain full spellcasting ability

>bbeg

Ugh.

yeah how dare someone use a common shorthand on an internet image board.

That's pretty cool.

>watch me defend my cringe-inducing shitphrase

Aww, look at the widdle twoddler and his favewit phwase.
Bwig Bwad Ebil Guy, awww....

This is one of the weaknesses with 5e that I'd hoped it wouldn't have compared to older editions. I just wish they could do spell lists without making wizards into gods at some point.

>investigation, negotiation and social reform, all things D&D is not generally about
that one depends entirely on your campaign and your party.

you're the only person cringing at it. stop treating your opinions as objective facts.

lvl 20 wizards are shit BBEGs, because if they really, absolutely, unironically, 100% wanted the party dead, they could accomplish this without the party ever knowing what hit them. And it makes no sense for them not to do it. A fight between high level D&D characters is a quickdraw, whoever moves first, moves last. A fight between a high level D&D character and low to mid level characters is not a fight at all, its a massacre.

D&D has no mechanics for mystery solving, and no faction mechanics to facilitate large-scale social conflicts. You can still do those things in D&D but there are definitely systems more mechanically suited to it, so if you're planning on playing that kind of game why would you use D&D?

The enjoyment derived from trying to build those kind of things in D&D. Designing the different mechanics, playtesting them and improving them. It feels especially nice to homebrew something in 3.PF and discover something from the endless system bloat that exactly matches what you're looking for your game and include it. Its kind of like worldbuilding, but more focused on the mechanical side of the game. Some people like that.

makes sense, if your group enjoys game design enough to build the system as you go, then why not. I've actually kind of wanted to play a campaign where all the rules are created as you go along for a while, but only one of my players is also into game design

Because your GM is an unimaginative fuckwit.

It doesn't require all the players to be into it, just the GM (though having playtesting help is always nice). Just make sure that all the players are familiarized with the homebrew content before starting the game (or before implementing the content, if it's created after starting the game) in the same manner as they would with actual core rules and you'll be good.

>A fighter leading his army from the front with raw strength and tactical genius
This isn't supported by any system that doesn't have the warlord class.

Really most dnd versions are just mechanically inept at anything that isn't magic, and most villains are mechanical villains.

I think more focus on specialization is the solution. I'd like to see a D&D where casters picking a school or domain really effects what they're able to do. I think casters should get to pick max 4 schools they have access to, one of which they're really good at. The current issue with that would be the schools aren't balanced against each other in their current incarnations. But we'll never get that in D&D because as soon as casters don't have access to anything and everything, grognards would pitch a fit.

Just make your own spell lists then. I've got some BBEGs that are effectively magical assassins. Although their primary class would be 'rogue', the few spells they have are all basically customised and customised. There's some reused effects (e.g. Spiderclimb), but the 'signature' stuff are all original.

As long as you can balance it well, what's to say you have to use PHB spells?

Because then they would be forced to recognize how shitty martials are

I'm yet to find a neat homebrew that preserves the balance right to level 20, I guess I'll have to make something for myself.

As counter intuitive as some people find it, the reason spellcasters end up as BBEGs is because you don't have to be very smart to use magic to kill people. A high level fighter BBEG needs to not only be good at fighting, but very intelligent in terms of tactics and probably politics. Wizards are idiots who just use brute strength.

kek. This much gatereeing

i like the way 5e handles martials, but you're right about most systems (including 5e, but it works better than say 3.5)

A deceased star general of your nation, raised as a murderous half-golem fighter intent on taking the reins of the country to relive, and this time win, a war with the enemy nation.

Raised by a spellcaster, spellcaster is the real BBEG. Same problem.

Emphasis on half-golem. Blame a mad scientist Expert who dies to BBEG's first murderous rage.

okay, i'm listening now.

Because spell casters can summon/create monsters to fight the party, and have mechanics to help support and justify their control of them. There isn't much incentive for other powerful people to follow a level 20 fighter, and there aren't many ways for him to make them either.

Level 20 fighter made a pact with a devil, letting him summon devils or shoot fireballs out of his sword and since it's a DM-controlled villain, these powers don't have to be balanced against players and are powered by narrativium.

The fighter also has several capable lieutenants who rarely leave his side unless sent on an important mission to hinder the party.

D&D has a heavy focus on meme dungeoneering and combat, which is why most of the mechanics for player characters support this direction of gameplay. The game doesn't expect players to, say, run a merchant empire or an inn so economics aren't covered by game mechanics. It doesn't mean that economy doesn't exist in the game and the inn your party slept in doesn't have to make money, the laws governing it are just hidden from the players and generally powered by DM's narrativium.

Your fighter is just a spellcaster.

He doesn't wear a dress or carry a spellbook, so he's not a spellcaster.

that's not how that works.

It works how I say it works.

did someone call?

RAW, spellcasters and monsters are the only interesting mechanical entities. Otherwise, has a good point.