What are your thoughts on someone like Wesker or possibly Captain America being the high end for martials in general?

Yeah, but in exchange for having this problem, D&D actually sells. So...

This. For the love of fuck, let something else, ANYTHING ELSE, dominate the industry for awhile. DnD is a fucking dumpster fire.

Garbage-eating DnDrone spotted.

Cap is stronger than Master Chief or an average Space Marine. Batman with prep time isn't a martial.

That cuts off a large portion of fantasy if you start that powerful.

So does McDonald's, didn't change the fact that it's shit taste for the uneducated masses, just like DnD.

How do you suppose that?

Not everyone wants to start at superhuman levels.

This is basically how I'm constructing my homebrew system.

This, Smug Wendy's has best nuggets.

I'd say so. Generally speaking though, I stick with more human examples like Bruce Lee, since Wesker and Cap both get most of their abilities from genetic modification. This isn't to say they aren't talented fighters (both most certainly are), but being a high-level martial doesn't usually give you the ability to move so fast you can dodge bullets and such, and you want to avoid giving players unrealistic expectations.

I don't get this because it implies they are the only ones who are capable of this and that their enemies arn't potentially even stronger than they are.

>Anima BF:Magic is the least retarded shit you can do

D&D sells because of brand recognition, it has nothing to do with martials being disproportionately "realistic" if that's what you are trying to imply. Most D&D players I have known hate caster supremacy, they just don´t hate it enough to stop playing.

You're a GURPS-fag, aren't you?

My point isn't how good they are relative to their settings. It's that using them as a blanket example of a high level martial has problems (although this is definitely more true for Wesker than Cap). For instance, if a player asks for an example of a high level martial, and you just say "Wesker", that implies a lot of things which won't be true in most game systems.
1. High level martials can move faster than the human eye can perceive
2. High level martials are naturally strong enough to lift and throw cruise missiles with relative ease
3. Unarmored high level martials can survive an RPG to the head

To be clear, I'm not saying that Wesker is a bad example of a martial, just that you should probably also mention that most martials don't have insane superpowers like he does.

Making martials stronger doesn't fix the problems, casters having actual limits does.

Too bad DnD is designed by retards who don't understand this and a fanbase of frothing retards who also don't understand this.

The funny thing is that (at least in 3.5) there was a supplement that made martials viable. Caster supremacy is still a thing but at least you can try to compete at higher level.
The unfortunate things is that it was in my opinion the most hated book ever released, and all my master banned him because "core only is balanced, your trying to be an op munchkin"
Pic related

user, you're eating at McD's and going "Wow, these salads are shit, right, guys?" There is literally an entire industry of games you've never tried. You don't like Subway? K. Try Pizza Hut, or Wendy's, or try some kooky local Mediterranian place instead of sitting at Mickey D's bitching about the salad.

>1. High level martials can move faster than the human eye can perceive
Meanwhile, the wizard just poked a hole in reality and pushed his enemy into the Hell of Being Flayed Alive.
>2. High level martials are naturally strong enough to lift and throw cruise missiles with relative ease
Meanwhile, the Cleric just summoned an archangel to smite the evil for him.
>3. Unarmored high level martials can survive an RPG to the head
An RPG is like 5d10+6 fire/physical damage, the wizard can probably tank one.

>Not everyone wants to start at superhuman levels.
yes they do

I mean, we could always go the Gideon Jora route I suppose he's a martial who uses magic but then it seems like people absolutely insist that martials can't use magic of any sort (even though they do in the form of magic weapons and armor, why not just give them magic abilities in keeping with being martials?)

Way to nitpick

You didn't answer my question.

There's lots of popular fantasy that isn't about superhumans.

>1. High level martials can move faster than the human eye can perceive
Have you heard of the builds where people have managed to somehow get 100+ AC?
>2. High level martials are naturally strong enough to lift and throw cruise missiles with relative ease
With magic items to enhance strength, a barbarian built to throw huge things could pull it off.
>3. Unarmored high level martials can survive an RPG to the head
They actually could. It'd probably be something like a high level fireball in damage, and a top tier martial can definitely walk through a high level fireball and keep trucking.

Not if they have levels

Level 1 isn't superhuman, therefore they don't start as superhuman. Be stupid somewhere else.

Even in D&D you don't start that powerful.

Never played D&D but the character attrition must be horrible.
Why do people pay it if their characters just die all the time?

Because he isn't me.
Actually Heroquest 2 and Mg1e Traveller. I also dabble in Shadowrun 5e as a player, have to take what you can get here and I can't be my own GM.

Just like the normal world, the people who die that easily are usually too stupid to live.

You don't have to be Captain America to survive.

>Making martials stronger doesn't fix the problems, casters having actual limits does.
Agreed.

I wasn't addressing how he measures up to other classes in DnD, I was addressing how he measures up as a generic example of a high level martial. Make sure to actually read the whole post rather than just skipping to the numbered part.

>Have you heard of the builds where people have managed to somehow get 100+ AC?
I don't play much DnD, so I'll assume you're right. Fair enough I guess.
>With magic items to enhance strength, a barbarian built to throw huge things could pull it off.
I suppose that could work if we're assuming that magic items are roughly analogous to his genetic modifications. Of course, the difference there is that magical items can be taken away, his gene mods can't, so he's always that strong.
>It'd probably be something like a high level fireball in damage, and a top tier martial can definitely walk through a high level fireball and keep trucking.
An RPG is an anti-tank weapon, designed to melt through modern tank armor. I'm fairly certain it would be more damaging than a fireball (especially against a single target).

And again, all of this depends on the system you're playing. A high level martial in a superhero game is probably at least comparable to Wesker. A high level martial in Call of Cthulu almost certainly isn't. Which is why I said using him as a blanket example has problems.

>Never played D&D but the character attrition must be horrible.
I haven't played much DnD, but in my experience it is pretty high. That being said, I'm sure a lot of that has to do with who your DM is and whether you're roleplaying or rollplaying.

So what you're saying is that players avoid deaths by living peaceful lives and staying out of trouble?
Sounds fascinating

You avoid death by knowing what you can and can't surmount.

>Daily reminder that an edition of D&D solved the problem but players gave it shit for it
D&D isn't the problem, the community is.

How much did Monte Cuck cry when the Book of Weeabo Fightan became a thing?

But what if I want to play a high-powered setting/campaign?, then buffing martials would really be a solution.

Wizards and spellcasters still dominated the fuck out of combat at higher levels and the price was gutting all the interesting parts of the game to yield a boring sterile mmo simulator.

>4e
>Wizards and spellcasters still dominated the fuck out of combat at higher levels

You haven't seen the optimized 4e builds for going encounter-power-nova all over enemies by paragon/epic, have you now.

Fate servants are a better example

>the price was gutting all the interesting parts of the game to yield a boring sterile mmo simulator.
Confirmed for not having actually read the book(s)
Also, never played either DnD4 or an MMO
4e isn't an MMO on paper, it's Final Fantasy Tactics on paper

Good
D&D is dogshit at doing anything other that its very specific type of fantasy
Plus D&D characters are already pretty much superheroes anyway, especially if you look at those presented in the sourcebooks and for sure the novels
You can't tell me that Drizzt isn't Drow Batman and Elminster isn't Doctor Goddamn Strange

>Generally speaking though, I stick with more human examples like Bruce Lee
Me too user, me too

Have ya looked at the Monster Manual
I'm pretty sure ya do have to be Captain America if if you want to fight anything other than Orcs

There are lot of succesfull rpgs that don't have class levels.

Sounds great if Harry Dresden is the top end magician.

Sorry to shoot down your GURPS strawman.
The are good and fun systems out there that doesn't require an autistic amount of rules.
Not talking about Shadowrun tho, that's like Burgerking

>gurps has lots of rules
>he doesnt enjoy "casual" games of HERO
Lmao, get on my level!

No I do not know this system "Hero" and I hope that you are as happy with it as I am with mine.

I am. Its a classless system original developed for super hero shenanigans. Instead of rules for powers, spells, weapons, attacks it just gives you rules for building them from effects. Its hilariously broken, character creation is a chore, and its very easy to be a cheesy munchkin. It also has the most open ended character creation and lets you build literally any character, super power, spell, or weapon from scratch.gameplay itself is simple thankfully

That makes me happy to hear user. I'm glad you found your beloved system.

Fuck you batman is the best!!

Yeah... The caster can do all that.

But what happens when the martial wins initiative and charges across the map then grabs the skinny neck of the poor little caster?

spoiler alert, he'll wring it like a pigeon

No. The high end for martials is anime tier, like Might Guy, Goku, or Garo. They need to be able to move so fast, you can't react fast enough, and even trying to defend a blow will just mean you get turned into a bloody bag of broken bones.

>Snake is several ranks below Master Chief

What the fuck? He killed a swarm of bees with a combat knife. Technically that was Big Boss, but still.

How can you fit so much wrong into so few words?

Fighters are Dime a Dozen, in all honesty, without direction and purpose to swing a sword, there's every reason to see why such a class is disposable, which is why any other is objectively better, being able to use most of the weapons handed out to you really just makes you a soldier- but even those guys do better in groups. Any fighter has always been better with Archtypes and variant class builds if we're talking 3.5 era here.

Wizards aren't going to end up level 20, not in my book, and not without actually engaging in RP to find more spells to learn, having to get spell components and sticking to being the lorefag/guy who knows dick, reading and scribing scrolls have to be part of much better processes, and theft, disabling and item damage via combat are all factors that need to be taken into consideration, as well as consequences for spellfailure and trying to go ammoral with magic.

Hand to Hand Fighters actually have a degree of dogma and spirituality to work on, a guy who followed some archaic text on !notbuddism becoming a Pseudo Outsider is something of a quest of realization if they realize what they've done by expanding their horizons in the manners of being near a spellcaster.

In truth, I'd say fighters and Wizards get chances at template application or forms of "basically being the casters guinea pig" is a decent compromise for the fact that all Fighters hold human limitations and may wish to attain power to stop being so useless.

Spellcasters always bear risk of competition and attention garnered that can trouble a party in some form or the other.

Divine casters- are also limited, because ye olde rules had their clerics actually stuck to certain levels dependent on their deities own power, so you wouldn't get a level 20 cleric for a demigod, and then that dude would have to multiclass, or by recent standards, PrC Multiclass, variant class, archtype or innovate through other means.

Progression by expectations and achievements.

>for the fact that all Fighters hold human limitations
Which is retarded in the first place

Literally every other class is not constrained by human limitations

The wizard fucks reality up its ass, the sorcerer has magic in his blood, the cleric and paladin channel the power of a literal god through their bodies, the ranger has access to spells and what amounts to a psychic bond with his animal companion, the druid turns into a bear, and the Barbarian gets to basically Hulk out

The idea that the Fighter or any class should be limited by the bounds of human capability, especially past level 5 at the latest, is completely ludicrous.
More so when you consider the world these characters inhabit which is filled to the brim with monsters that no normal baseline human or even a truly exceptional one would have any reasonable chance of surviving much less defeating

Fighters shouldn't be constrained by real world limitations any more than the other classes or monsters that make up the game's rules and world

1 = black belt
3 = Bruce Lee
5 = Ip Man
7 = Space Marine (40k)
9 = Captain America (MCU)
11 = Neo (sans flight)
13 = Wesker
15 = Spider Man
17 = Thor
19 = Superman?

>40k space marine
>lower than fucking MCU cap
Are you high?

Something that always bothered me. They never explained when exactly Cap learned to fight. He went from being a brave but weak guy to a good freak, then was shipped overseas. Even with a year in between that's not long enough to become an competent boxer or jiujitsu blue belt , much less a Batman level martial artist.

Bump.

>Cap is stronger than Master Chief or an average Space Marine

Any feats to share? Genuinely curious.

Does superman even know how to fight?, most of the time it seems like he only relies on super strenght and speed wihtout any thought put behind them.

That only happens in the movies, in the comics he did get a lot of training and experience after becoming a super-soldier.

>Does superman even know how to fight?
Yes

And yes

You don't fight much more than orcs at level 1.

So you're saying just never advance past level 1 as a Fighter then

Level 1 = trained soldier
Level 3 = elite soldier
Level 6-8 = Captain America
Level 10-12 = Space Muhreen
Level 20+ = Karsa Orlong or Dassem Ultor

>tfw you play 5e and martials aren't eligible to get divine rank 0 at level 15 like in 2e

So... everyone just becomes a wizard instead.

Human body < reality altering magic
Just how it works, champ

Cap can benchpress 2200 pounds and run a mile in 73 seconds. That's a ton and 49.31 miles per hour.
That's what numbers say. Then in the comics he's fighting in even terms with people like Wolverine or Thor, doing a High Altitude No Opening jump from 15 kms, dodging lazors and stuff.

It's inconsistent. People watching the movies would be surprised.

>Does superman even know how to fight?
Trained with Wonder Woman, Batman and Muhammad Ali, amongst others.

Ehhhh
I kinda agree and kinda don't
The problem is partly that casters are too strong and partly that martials are too dull
I think it is good to expand martials' options, but this shouldn't be confused with buffing their power level, though they need to be competent at their tricks for those tricks to add anything meaningful

Weaker than a marine, but faster.

Wolverine isn't particularly strong, he's just ridiculously durable. Thor...kind of depends on the era. Silver Age Thor is stronger than even Worldbreaker Hulk, being able to lift one of the legs of the world serpent when it was in cat form, but never showed that level of strength in his bronze age or MCU incarnation.

>lift one of the legs of the world serpent when it was in cat form

Congratulations! By limiting casters, you've made the game revolve around them even more! Instead of just letting them do their thing, now you get to experience the pleasure of hours of collecting spell components, entire sessions of the wizard chanting, and other such faffing about that doesn't actually solve the core problem!

So the problem with D&D wizards is simple.

They have access to infinite number of spells with no drawbacks of any sort and really you can break the spells into two categories: Spell of tell me the plot and spell of solve the plot.

The only way to resolve this is to prune the spell list and create thematic spells for each school, force the wizard to pick said school and turn some spells into class features exclusive to that school (assuming 5e style subclasses) and most important no limitless access to spells outside of your thematic spelllist

>Buh muh versatility!

Your versatility is your party, get over it.

I don't think anyone contends that, the problem is having god wizards in a game where you are supposed to cooperate with martials. If your game has martials then PC casters should have a coherent limit.

I fucking contend that
You're playing a game with 2 ton flying fire breathing lizards, beings made out of classical elements, immortal psychic slugs, LITERAL Gods
If you make casters weaker and more limited to match how much martial suck ass then you should remove at least half of the monsters in the Monster Manual because now no one can handle them
Buffing martials is the only answer to this problem that doesn't involve just playing an entirely different system
The only thing preventing the buffing of martial is shit suckers like you complaining that the Fighter should barely be able to do shit an Olympic athlete can while jerking your micro-cock to Wizards and all the other EXPLICITLY INTRINSIC magic present in the setting

We have this fucking argument at least once a week and it's always the same thing stupid dickheads trying to drag every other class down through a mile of shit and broken glass to be on the same level of awful as martials and people with actual sense

I hate how autistic TG is about dnd. Do you fucktards only play with dm's who just shrug, tell you to play whatever you want with no restrictions, and then don't ask for, look at, or require character sheets? Do you morons only fucking play like a munchkin and with other people who only want to "win" against the DM?

I have never played a system which i couldn't break. If you are more competent than your GM, you will be able to break the game. Maybe you cucks should just let people enjoy what they want to rather than whine about a problem that every system has

they already are

No? Where was that implied.