What do you mean with subversion and deconstruction? I read it here a few times, mostly when it came to Worldbuilding

What do you mean with subversion and deconstruction? I read it here a few times, mostly when it came to Worldbuilding.

Other urls found in this thread:

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SubvertedTrope
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeconstructedTrope
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In a nutshell, it means being contrarian.

Subversion is when you deliberately do something contrary to expectation. For instance, if you made an orc character who's a peaceful old sage, it would be a subversion.

Deconstruction is when you allow the expectation to play out, but in such a way as to point out the logical flaws. For example, playing a half-naked berserker orc warrior who gets severely wounded in almost every fight because of his lack of protection and caution.

Basically it means intentionally avoiding the cliches/tropes of the genre in a way that defies the expectations of your players or readers.

Like having an evil overlord who cares deeply for the lives of his underlings and is willing to forgive failure.

These refer to tropes in fantasy- parts of a plot that someone familiar with the genre could see coming, or that they are familiar with before it is given any explanation.

Overly violent Orcs could be a trope, or maidens being sacrificed to dragons.

Subversion is a way to sidestep the trope- a way to mix things up to present something that isn't expected.

Deconstruction is a way to meet a trope head-on, but in a way that hopefully makes the player/reader/viewer think about it differently. It's a way to challenge the presumptions people have going into the genre.

That's just as wrong as claiming they're always a good thing.

Subversion and Deconstruction are tools that have been pretty well described by the prior posts in the thread, but what's important to remember is that they aren't innately good in themselves- They're tools. Means to an end, narrative devices you can use to explore ideas or add to a story. But if the story is shit, it doesn't matter how much you subvert or deconstruct, it'll still be shit.

Too many hacks act as if subverting or deconstructing is all they need to do and write garbage as a result, which is why posts like the above exist, because they've primarily experienced them through shitty people using them without understanding why or how they should be used.

So is Evangelion a desconstruction or not?

>So is Evangelion a desconstruction or not?
I don't know much about it, but probably not since it seems that the Angels exclusively appear in Japan, which would have global ramifications that are never addressed in the show (to my knowledge), such as how other larger world powers would likely insist on helping out despite Japan saying they don't need any help from outsiders.

If it was a true deconstruction, it would have the characters asking themselves why the Angels only appear in Japan. Does this happen at some point?

I've not seen it (or much mech anime in general). What expectations of mech anime do you think it addresses the logical flaws in?

The fact that a teenager can hop in a mech and start kicking ass to an extreme level and become a major league badass that can take down multiple trained soldiers without any problem.

To an extent. Eva is all about the psychological impact of dehumanizing mech pilots.

Yes, and there is a reason for it too.

This is also what makes it a deconstruction. Unlike most teenage mech pilots, these pilots are fucked up, stupid, and ultimately doomed children - often simply because no one bothered ~ever~ telling them the truth, which is a rarity in mecha shows (here is the truth, go kick ass; ot here is the lie, but they find out the truth anyways and kick ass still).

It's a huge question, but is eventually answered.

It's generally implied they're after NERV itself (the organization built into a giant hole under tokyo-3)

Of course, there's been a few discovered elsewhere. But the general feeling behind the angels was that they were strange lifeforms, attacking Tokyo-3 to get underneath it.

But as for a deconstruction, many of the clichés deconstructed may not be as memorable now, such as:
>The absent father who made a giant mech for his son. (Previously it'd be more of a happy event, "oh hey, he's been doing this. It's great to see him again." While in Eva it was about Shinji's abandonment issues.)
>The young boy with the fate of the world on his shoulders. (Shinji's fucked up from it.)

And of course, two of the cliché archetypes intended to be deconstructed, the yandere and the emotionless girl (Asuka and Rei) have instead become their archetypes. (Asuka was meant to be showing how a yandere pushes everyone away, how their attitude doesn't get them the affection they want. While Rei was meant to be freaky and not attractive at all.)

So, Eva was meant to be a deconstruction. I guess if you wanted to be fancy you could liken it to The Merchant of Venice. Meant to be a major eye opener and culturally transgressive. But now it's neither of those.

Let's take the old cliche of a sheet of glass being taken across the street during a car chase.

If the car swerves to avoid it, or if it smashes into it but knocks it flat without putting a scratch on it, then it's a subversion. You expect it to shatter but it doesn't happen.

If the glass shatters, and the shards spray into the face of whoever is driving the car, blinding them, or otherwise causing injury to others, it's deconstructed as it follows through but it shows the potential consequences of smashing into a glass pane at 60mph. Burst tyres are also an example of this.

So a deconstruction is basically thinking logically about the situation?

Yeah, you take a common cliché or trope, and then go "what would actually happen in the real world."

So as an example in fantasy rpgs:

>Cliché: Orcs are vicious raiders.
>Subversion: Orcs are a highly stratified society who live in peace.
>Deconstruction: Orcs are a nomadic people who raid human cities because their lifestyle gives no opportunity for agriculture.

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SubvertedTrope
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeconstructedTrope
Here you go.

>2018
>still using tvtropes

Kill yourself

Funny how Rei was supposed to show how unsettling the "emotionless girl" archetype was, but instead basically became the inspiration for every emotionless girl waifubait that came after her.
In the words of Miyazaki, "otaku are stupid fucking niggers"

>In the words of Miyazaki, "otaku are stupid fucking niggers"

Did he really say that?

If she was supposed to seem unsettling then maybe she should've been made like that? Don't blame the otakus when the character was clearly appealing to them instead of really being weird.

of course, though I think he may have gone a little far when he said it the responsibility of the samurai to eradicate the jewish people.

They sucked at pulling off the uncanny valley look.

Apparently the Rei in the third Rebuild movie works better at the role.

So I always thought she needed a hug.

I don't know where this utter and obviously wrong bullshit about Rei being supposedly meant to be creepy and emotionless, but the fact that people still parrot it proves that self-hating faggots trying to prove they are above medium they still eagerly swallow are dumber than your ran of the mill otaku.

They did not you nigger. The show goes OUT OF IT'S WAY to display her actual emotional side and constantly hammer down that while she comes across as robotic, she is actually a troubled, sad character you are supposed to fucking care for. Fuck me, there are entire fucking monologues dedicated to that in the first fucking six episodes. Not to mention that SHE IS THE REFLECTION OF SHINJI'S MOTHER, in a show massively centered around the subject of Oedipal complex - it's absolutely obvious from the very fucking start that she is supposed to evoke positive reactions. The whole thing is even fucking hammered down in the manga when they went out of their way to fix some of the weird and out-of-place looking scenes like the one with her slapping Shinji (another scene that, if totally clumsily, communicates that there is more to her) and flashing out her relationship to Shinji. Again, to fucking hammer down the point that Shinji is still looking out for his fucking mother? God you people are dumb.

>2012+6
>Still hating on tvtropes

U frst

...

As the tropes themselves are tools, the means of cataloging tropes can be beneficial or detrimental to a conversation about those tools. It would just be nice if the main means by which we describe tropes wasn't a website that was pretty explicitly designed to be entertaining to preteens.

>a website that was pretty explicitly designed to be entertaining to preteens
I don't see this

>If it was a true deconstruction, it would have the characters asking themselves why the Angels only appear in Japan.
Yes, and it also does get answered. Though it is ultimately revealed that it has never really been the key question for the show.

The very idea that piloting a mech is a form of juvenile powerfantasy, and presumably part of a greater heroic tale.
In Evangelion, being a pilot is a burden and a massive amount of pain, the cause they fight for is questionable, and the key dilema turns out to be a psychological problem forcing the actors to focus inwards and ask and fight what is wrong with them (generally, their own insecurity and psychological flaws), rather than being heroes defeating some kind of grand external threat.

So yeah, it's a deconstruction, and not a bad one at that.

>Asuka
>Yandere

wat

I can't have fun unless I am the only one having fun, mostly.

I also remember being really into it in my early teens.

Probably a typo. user's pretty clearly describing the turmoil of being a tsundere there, an archetype that Asuka kind of set half the precedent for in anime since Eva, like Rei influenced kuu robogirls.

Moot would never allow for such errors.

You could call it a subversion of the super robot genre and deconstruction of Universal Century Gundam, I guess, if you really wanted to do that. Neither means that Evangelion is something new beyond the unique way ideas which were already there are presented.

wow!

>Orcs are a nomadic people who raid human cities because their lifestyle gives no opportunity for agriculture.
This is actual Forgotten Realms lore.
If the other gods hadn't screwed Gruumsh out of a place for his people to live orcs'd be a lot more chill.
Probably still brutish and dim, Gruumsh would still value brawn over brain, and you wouldn't want to cross one, cause they'd still hold onto grudges forever, but they wouldn't be born with no land to grow food on and a burning vengeance against all other humanoids for putting them into that situation.

Miyazaki is an hypocrite pedophile

You first

>Funny how Rei was supposed to show how unsettling the "emotionless girl" archetype was

Source

Fuck off grandpa

This, like anything else it can be done well or done poorly.

Subversion = bamboozle
Deconstruction = tropebusters

>Subversion
>Deconstruction

You absolute plebian. What you want, what you NEED, what your soul NEEDS is reconstruction.

Take the "Immortals" setting Iron riders
They appear at first to be a straight example of the "knights in shining armor" cliche because they are in fact, heavily armored cavalry that all swear by a religious code of honor and all that.

Then it appears to be subverted, as what the actually are is a semi-unified force of big hulking armored killers and glory hounds They also have a nasty tendency of going rogue or just grinding your town into dust simply from the post-crusade partying. They also appear to be very irreverent towards their god by comparrison.

THEN it gets reconstructed when despite this behavior, their codes of honor and conduct are in fact the only thing that is heavily reinforced about them, their god is in fact real and appreciates his subjects bro-ing out with him.

TLDR
Their armor might not be shiny, but they are knights
They might be rowdy, but they are honorable
They might appear to be undisciplined, but that is because their religious doctrine calls for it.
They kill, but they do it fairly.

subversion and deconstruction basically mean "Ooooh look at me I'm so clever lol!"
"I'm so much smarter than other writers because in MY story the bad guy HAS A POINT!!!!111!!!"
"I'm the first one to think about this! look at how unique and special I am!"

>subversion
If you do it well, its adding depth to what is normally a stock character.
IE an evil overlord whos is undoubtedly cruel and draconian, but whos rule actually improves the lives of the people he conquered

If you do it poorly, you are being an attention seeking faggot who wants a pat on the head for being "creative"
IE an evil overlord who turns out to be the good guy with literally zero foreshadowing and everyone just thinks they are evil for no reason, or they act incredibly evil for no reason just to throw the players off.

>Deconstruction
taking apart an idea and saying why it wouldn't work
IE, an evil overlord that kills the messenger would fail because no one would give them accurate situation reports so their intelligence network would be lousy.

This. To explain further reconstruction is when you acknowledge that the deconstruction has a point but find a way to do the original concept anyway by making minor changes to the archetype that leave the core concept intact or by setting up the setting and situation to be one where something normally impractical becomes a good option.

>trope: magical anime girls
>subversion: right after the first transformation, the girls remove their magical outfit and wear school uniforms and the show turns into a slice of life dropping the magical aspect all together
>deconstruction: the world is dying, the magical girls were actually fighting corrupted magical girls, they have a mental breakdown and get corrupted themselves

My elves are different lmao