The reality of Dungeons

Ok, lets think about this.

Dungeon delving is a stable of traditional games but I feel like it is also wildly unrealistic. Not the idea that dungeons exist, or that all the fantasy stuff exists, I'm taking that for granted. I mean the way that the world and people interact with those dungeons.

Like, imagine if today someone discovered that the sewers of major cities were spontaneously filled with highly valuable goods, powerful weapons, and deadly beasts. What would be the initial reaction of the world around it?

Some people would want to go in there and get that treasure and those weapons. Either to get rich or because they had some sort of use for those weapons. Probably not a legal use though. But I feel like the government would immediately want to seal those places off to the public and start doing government run expeditions. The threat of monsters getting out into the world, the threat that extremists with magical weapons could present, and the money they could get from the dungeons would be great to ignore.

Citizens of the city above would probably be split, some wanting to profit and others wanting to seal it up for safety.

I feel like, realistically, most dungeon delving would be a government affair undertaken with overwhelming force and large teams while small groups of adventurers would be viewed almost like bootleggers or thieves, wanted criminals with a large underground industry built up around their actions.

Does this seem like a reasonable concept or do you think it would go differently?

>his dungeons aren't formed from the hateful ooze of the underworld bubbling to the surface, tempting mortals into risking their lives for the promise of gold and glory, feeding it to let it become larger and more dangerous

It's pretty much exactly what would occur, people would freak out in general and turn towards our great leaders for an answers.

Assuming that there wasn't a limited number of dungeons, the government would likely send in the military and/or use PMC's to clear them out.

If there was any sort of small adventurers I agree, definitely be seen as thieves and probably get thrown in jail for stealing from dungeons on government land, etc.

OR maybe, if so many were hanging around and were randomly generated (e.g. they are beasts from another plane of existence that slip into our world with treasure) and on top of that, could more or less be taken care of by your average dude, maybe there would be dungeoneering licenses. Much like hunting, it keeps the beasts/treasure from another realm in check but doesn't over-harvest.

AND the rewards from any private dungeoneering would be subject to heavy taxes.

I think you assume a centralized government able to project force and exert itself that is at odds with the pseudo-monarchies of fantasy.

Perhaps look at dungeons less as something like untapped oil discovered within its borders that a first world country would seek to exploit and maybe more like a mineral reserve waiting to be discovered in an area that is somewhat legally nebulous in the way international waters are.

>spontaneously filled

That's where you deviate from the standard. Dungeons don't magically appear, they're the places where those dangerous creatures live and where they stockpile their treasures.

Today you could go to the Middle East and get rich looting museums and houses. The reason people don't do it is because Hassan will chop your head off with a sword.

Most D&D settings are the same way - dungeons exist on the periphery of civilization. When they are beneath a city, it's either some cult (which is by necessity secret), so far beneath that no one knows about it, like the Underdark, or only occasionally populated by monsters like oozes and other vermin, at which point you hire a ratcatcher and his small (but viscious) dog.

I just realized I basically described exactly the state of affairs in "A Roadside Picnic"

Huh.

I suppose the nature of dungeons does somewhat effect the realistic response to them.

The premise of dungeoneering is based on the idea that the game world experiences periodic cataclysms that nearly wipe the intelligent races from the face of the planet, and these dungeons are far beyond the easy reach of any of the "governments" (which are really not much more than city-states and fortresses against all the awful monsters). No one has been strong and resourceful enough to delve them until the PCs reach that level.

It doesn't mesh so well with modern fantasy settings where common use of high magic has led to what's basically Star Trek post-scarcity with a medieval veneer.

>the government sets up an agency tasked with methodically clearing out dungeons

>it is quickly discovered that dungeon environments are extremely unfriendly to large masses of mooks (especially due to monsters with AoE attacks), so the job has to fall to small teams of elite operatives

>these government agents are given letter rankings like "D rank," "C rank," "B rank," "A rank," and "S rank," denoting their overall talent and experience with dungeon-crawling

>dungeons are similarly given letter ratings, based on threat level assessments, so as to better match up operatives with dungeons they can feasibly handle

>the government agency has a long-winded name with an unappealing acronym, so people colloquially refer to the agency as the adventurer's guild

The question is: would you have boom and bust "Dungeon towns" that spring up around dungeons until they're fully plundered? Would things work out a lot like Mining in the American west. Both are highly profitable, potentially fatal, and on the outskirts of civilization.

Sounds a lot like Made in Abyss

What this user said. OP, you must be a European or something because you presume a lot of extant authority. "The government" often doesn't exist in these settings beyond a petty king with his band of strongmen, and is more interested in raiding/exacting tribute than in enforcing some form of broad civil law. Of course, I prefer early Iron Age settings, so I'm likely just as biased.

I would think that the population may not cover every inch of terrain that it may have once upon a time, at least in a setting where dungeon delving occurs, so there is likely large expanses of unexplored or forgotten wilderness in which players could encounter monsters or find "dungeons".

You are assuming there IS a goverment with a strong enough presence to do that shit, which would most likely not be the case unless the setting has the equivalent of modern nation-states

When I think a "Kingdom" I think Romans. If they could build thousands of miles of roads that were of such a high quality that they were being used into the 15th century, I think they would have the governmental muscle to seal off some caves and throw a legion at it.

But that's not a kingdom. That's an empire. That's like hearing cupcake and thinking pie. Sure, they're both baked goods commonly eaten as dessert, but that's where the similarities end. A kingdom and an empire are only related in that they're ways of ruling an area of land.

It can be reasonably assumed that, if there are roads, it is either due to collaboration between cities or there being an elder empire that petered out for various reasons (*much like the Romans*).

The Romans suffered from terrible banditry, pirates that literally shut down their sea trade on at least one occasion, rebellious generals, usurpers, and foreign invasion all the time though. Stability wasn't nearly as common as you'd imagine, especially in the hinterland which is where an adventuring party would likely be set.

Ok, but why do you guys just assume that the governing power of a fantasy land is always going to be completely incompetent and semi-powerless?

Roman Empire also had frequent regime changes, got outright BTFO'd by barbarians so hard it split the empire in half, had it's capital sacked by the equivalent of soccer/FIFA riots, and a near constant issue of uprisings and banditry. It wasn't the Elder Scrolls Septim dynasty IRL.

These anons are right. our notion of what a State CAN and SHOULD do is completely out of line with most of human civilization. You would practically be unable to recognize your own nation's government pre-1920s (at least in America), because it took about that long for the government to really start to congeal into a real powerful PERMANENT entity (rather than a distant one with transient powers), and it wasn't until about 1940s (again America) before it really started to wield that power on a much more regular and persistent frequency than it did before. Hence why you still had miner revolts, indian raids, famous robbers like Jesse James, and wars with mexican bandits well into the early 1900s.

The reality is, for most of civilization, "kingdoms" were better defined as a loose coalition of towns that agreed to have one leader in exchange for collective defense (or were just MADE to be part of that collective). Most people died within a day's walking distance of where they were born, and plenty of Kings and other nobles were effectively warlords by another name. The populations were scattered and spread thin like peanut-butter, with few cities that ever reached beyond even 30-45k people.

A government may legitimately be unable to levy the resources necessary to pay a wizard to de-magic every rune, a rogue to turn off the Hall of Whirling Blades that Fuck Your Day, someone both qualified and willing to fight the Dragon, and there's no guarantee that the first militia man you send to fetch Gruumsh's Unholy Might +5 Mace from a tomb 30 miles away isn't going to just take it for himself and sell it to someone else or use it to become the new king.

Counterpoint--if they weren't incompetent and semi-powerless, why the hell do they need adventurers to do shit in the first place? Most settings have an acceptable amount of competence to keep basic goods flowing, but not enough to actually keep people's lives from occasionally dipping into the bad side of "North Korean farm simulator". Hence why the players exist, since they do all that dirty work that the government can't, won't, or shouldn't do. If the government is strong and powerful, that pretty much eliminates any need for powerful adventurers/PCs to do things on their own. At worst, it means every issue gets resolved a la citizen militia/military force and the party has nothing to really do. At best it means the party is effectively part of the government in question, which may not work with a lot of character options (like druid).

Nothing's stopping you from playing a game where the empire/kingdom/government HAS restricted entrance into a dungeon, and half the fun could be working out a way around that. Or maybe dungeons exist in a way that most people would never want to go within 1000 metres of one, which doesn't sound unrealistic to me.

I always have Dungeons in dangerous inhabitable places filled with monsters or cities built around dungeons as kind of export, like tourist cities

HEY WAIT A MINUTE

You’re just trying to get me to play an anime game again!

Monsters, magic weapons, and treasure all exist outside dungeons though. They're not some kind of magical spawning pit where these things originate from.

Because if they weren't you pretty much couldn't do half the shit you normally can in fantasy games.

After reading the thread I was going to suggest taking a look at how the Exlusion Zone is handled in the S.T.A.L.K.E.R games.

In Tyranny there is a giant dungeon network that covers the continent and it's basically treated the same way. Looting or entering it is a crime because it's technically the property of whomever owns the land and the Overlord owns all of the land.

Hmm, playing oozes as a form of Witch's Jelly could be fun.

>I feel like the government would immediately want to seal those places off to the public and start doing government run expeditions.
Correct, except they would send private contractors in because that's just how things are done these days. Say hello to the modern adventurer. Mobilizing the military or wasting time training up other government employees takes too much effort.

Sealing the dungeon so dangerous things can't come out would take priority over going inside to explore it.

If the dungeon appeared under any civilized country the looting would be second because exploration would be more important. Mapping the whole thing, finding out what is in there and what can be looted.

It would also be important to find out what caused the dungeon to appear in the first place, if the process can be raplicated somewhere else and if it is permanent, we wouldn't want a large number of troops and equipment to vanish along with the treasure.

People venturing into it illegally would probably be a common thing before the whole thing is mapped and sealed by the government. People could try to enter through different tunnels, and depending how wide the dungeon is the military might not be able to track every entrance and tunnel, not to mention that if people are willing to invade a restricted area, making their own entrances wouldn't be out of question.

But, having it just appear sounds weird, at least make it be instead a bunch of ancient ruins stumbled upon during a subway or sewer construction or something.

>and start doing government run expeditions
>most dungeon delving would be a government affair undertaken with overwhelming force and large teams
Unrelated to the main thrust of the thread, but now I kind of want to have a party find an ancient map or get rumours from a crone and head towards a dungeon.
They get looked at strangely if they tell the guards at the "nearest" watchtower what they're up to, and they arrive at the dungeon site to find a cross between a fort and a massive archaeological dig - some warlord or prince or something has had the idea of exploring/digging up the dungeon.

This doesn't preclude the adventurers doing it though - there might be a situation like the start of a scooby doo episode where people are fleeing/disappearing and the camp is in dire straights, or just needing the help of a team of seasoned adventurers - after all, simply having an army doesn't mean they'll be good at cracking dungeons.
It could create an opportunity where the party gets a lot of resources and assistance, but they don't get to keep all the treasure (they would get some, it's a military expedition where loot = pay).
There might also be tension in the camp, especially if some think the whole thing is a bit of a fool's errand (especially if it's in a difficult location).

so... STALKER vis a vis the zone?

You assume a system of mass and fast communication. News moves slowly in typical fantasy settings. No one goes into dungeons because no one comes out of the dungeons. Tales of treasure only come from stories of rich people who suddenly disappeared so everyone assumes that the money is hidden away somewhere. The moment someone finds the long-lost trove, and even then only people within the region will understand the reference enough to go after the dungeon.

Also, real talk, the whole deadly part of dungeons is enough for 99.999999999999% of everyone and every organization to want nothing to do with the dungeon.

> a ratcatcher and his small (but viscious) dog.

If we were talking about more realistic fantasy, yes.

But I've read or heard of at least a couple of settings where that's not the way it worked.

One of the ideas I've had, based on scraps of others I've heard about, treasure was created by a "venus fly trap"-like organism that produced treasure as bait. We call that organism a "dungeon".

It starts out small. Perhaps the size and general description of a crypt or as simple as a small cave. Its treasures are shiny rocks or pools of magic. Possibly something more elaborate if it's a cutting from its parent and retains some of its power and knowledge. As it consumes lives, it grows larger and its treasures and interior spaces grow to be more attractive and tricky - inspired by the desires/fears of those lives it takes and the objects left behind by those its consumed. When it grows quite venerable and large, its metabolism slows and it can't directly kill its prey as often - so it attracts monsters and murderers to do the killing for it. The dungeon gets the essence of the kills, which is all it needs. And it doesn't matter so much whether it's the adventurers or the mobs that die. In time - often hundreds and sometimes thousands of years - it has either grown out of its life cycle, and becomes a lair for some other creature, or even a location for a civilization, or it collapses in on itself. But its seeds would have traveled with those adventurers and monsters that did escape its maw, and sprout in interesting new places.

Go read roadside picnic, it'll give you a good idea how such a situation may play out.

Wrong.

Dungeons grow in the Earth from places that are not touched by sunlight or its children (mankind). The noble's wine cellar must often be patrolled, and the giant rats killed early, before their hair falls out and they become goblins, and before the goblins grow up to become orcs. It twists and inflates like a tumor, growing passages and rooms and traps all on its own.

And then once the “gold rush” starts waning, the boom towns get abandoned and become run down ghost towns, and monters move back in, and then you just have another dungeon and the cycle starts over again!

Yes, but there'd have to be a goldilocks zone in terms of lethality and reward.
A very simple dungeon will be plundered well before a town develops, or be easily taken by authorities
A very lethal dungeon will be too unpopular with all but the strongest adventurers to venture into.
So you'd have to have a dungeon that is known to have valuable rewards, but is also not too ridiculously difficult for a boomtown economy to develop.

That said, there can be other ways to derive benefit from a dungeon system beyond treasure that can extend the life of the dungeon. Dungeons usually offer their own ecosystems with their own flora and fauna, so it probably is possible to be able to sustainable develop some kind of profit from them even after the treasure itself is exhausted.

Or you have a "Made in Abyss" dungeon where it is just so fucking huge with varying levels of challenge that it would take a very long time to completely plunder.

>large monster throws boulder, company of level 0-2 soldiers go to dodge shed sized boulder.

>formation prevents decent dodge, some save for half damage.

>watching several of your low paid brothers in arms crushed like a soda can filled with strawberry jam. Roll for willpower to not cause a rout.


That's just a direct combat situation, think of a trap or curse causing disease, murder-hobos can just pay for their own healthcare and training and equipment.

Meanwhile one simple encounter the injures or kills a few soldiers could easily set back the tax payers a small fortune. That or no one joins the guard because of poor pay/heathcare.