Bitcoin value

>The basic problem, though, is Bitcoin has no actual value, it is based on nothing other than the belief in the technology as a kind of electronic Western Union
Every time I see this argument bit coin shoots up even more.

Bitcoin will probably crash
It will stay with the current value, till there wont be much fluctuations left, and then people will just start selling them

So, this is the thing - I buy that argument is there is only ONE cyrpto-currency and it can ONLY be bought with FIAT currencies - but what about Tether, $1.3 billion of "cash" backed by jackshit, that is pumping up the Bitcoin price - if Bitcoin is the ONLY crypto-currency yes that argument holds, but if there is more than one, and it can be bought with other cryptos that can be printed at will, then it is an infinite chain of nothing with no value.

I do agree that the "store of value" in Bitcoin is the social network, like Myspace or Facebook, or Instagram or Snapchat, as much as the technology, but Bitcoin is not as efficient as Ethereum or as versatile; there will be other technical innovations, and computing power advances will make it easier to mine. I know the temptation to have a store of value because Gold and silver have been mercilessly beat down I just don't think Bitcoin is it - that is like saying Myspace or Facebook is like Gold because it is a network people like to share photos on, Bitcoin is the same just with money.

your personal valuation of bitcoin is mostly irrelevant, because the market has already decided, and consequently will leave you behind.

Just apply what you say about bitcoin to gold instead, and you'll see why bitcoin is such a good store of value. Imagine shipping or storing 1 million dollars worth of gold, compared with bitcoin. Bitcoin is literally abstract, it exists only on the blockchain, which is basically a list that people keep updated on their computers. Your bitcoin is always safe because it's on the blockchain, no one can take it away from you without the private key to the bitcoin address. People can take your gold, your cash, diamonds, cars, houses, beanie babies, or whatever, but they can never ever take away your bitcoin unless they have the private key.

exactly - Russia and China are buying gold the price is low now, Bitcoin is the last refuge to save the petrodollars - take spare change from others around the world, do some blackops and try to postpoone the day of a currency actually backed by something - should I be a good goy and do this?

>Bitcoin is digital gold

HAHAHAAHA. yeah like the "wooden iron", or the "boiling snow".

never change libtards.

>no actual value
All the input computing power that calculated and stored all the prime numbers, databases, and cryptographic sequences, but that value will go to nothing if there is a development in quantum computing that can render all that computing power to a triviality and simultaneously break the effectiveness of their encryption schema.

>governments can track ISPs
Bitcoin's blockchain doesn't store any IP information that can be easily referenced through an ISP.

>transaction fees have increased
That just makes it more convenient to mine and participate in the transaction validation process necessary to the protocol.

>(there are 1370 imitators)
The US dollar has more imitators besides the dozens of countries, even your local arcade or Dave and Busters prints their own coins and bills.

I'm not disputing that is true, I'm just saying that its value is what people perceive it to be - at the same time, if your computer is hacked or your lose the key, your life savings is gone, and this is not true of having gold bars or an FDIC insured account.

If it is on the Blockchain but crashed to $.001 cents because of infinity crypto- printing I don't care that it is secure

Switched 60% of my btc to altcoins at around $14k. Probably should do much more.

Bitcoin is useless now.

Great heard this at $30, $250, $1k, $3k, ....

>but they can never ever take away your bitcoin unless they have the private key.
That seems like a convoluted way of saying stealing all your bitcoin is as easy as figuring out a few characters.

Are you 'persuaded' in the value of the pieces of paper you allow the Federal Reserve to print whenever they feel like it?

Choose your poison.

The more cryptocurrencies, the better. Improvements come quicker because it's so easy to swap cryptocurrencies on a whim. If you don't like certain aspects of bitcoin like the high fees or the slow transaction time, you can just swap for another coin that does it better. This, in turn, puts pressure on bitcoin to evolve. It's open source, alot of people contribute to the core code. There are solutions being worked on right now to fix a few of the issues facing bitcoin.

This ability to pivot and evolve is another thing that guarantees bitcoin's long-term existence. The very fact that other cryptocurrencies exist actually guarantees that bitcoin will be constantly updating itself to compete with them, and the fact that bitcoin is open-source means that changes can happen quickly. Sure it's got its risks, but the potential upside is astronomical to the point where you'd be an idiot not to hold some bitcoin as a long-term strategy.

This is the thing - this process will continue as the "whales" change their cryptos to diversify in that world and also to pull out actual cash.

But here is a question for you - how can something have value if there is no intrinsic value other than a group of people liking it, no profits or even potential for profits? How can a market go from $17 billion to $560 billion in one year without any actual cash profits in the real world? It literally is worse than the tulip bubble if you consider all cryptos together, with 95-99% of them are fraud schemes, as everyone admits.

Besides, if there is a quantum computing power advance in the next 5-10 years everything in that world goes to shit, no security, etc. This is like putting all of your money on "dial-up" technology in 1997 because millions of people can connect online and there will never be anything better, ever guaranteed.

How the fuck would bitcoin's price be affected by other crypto "printings?" If zimbabwe and venezuela print trillion dollar bills of their currencies it has literally no affect on the price of milk in America.

So, I agree that technical improvements will improve the usability of Bitcoin, but it doesn't change the argument that its source of value is a social network of like minded users, that could be rendered obsolete with a massive increase in computing power that could happen at an arbitrary time.

I mean it is a cool experiment and all, but ultimately force and necessity back up currencies and Bitcoin has neither of those.

oh cool so I can basically take everything you have using a key logger

faggot kys

Well, what happened this fall is that whenever there is a price decline, Tether a crypto-currency printed out of thin air was used to prop up the price, consider what Charlie Lee says, who cares what I think - Bitcoin is a faith based system, and that faith must e maintained by ever increasing price=value, even if shortcuts are taken

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-05/mystery-shrouds-tether-and-its-links-to-biggest-bitcoin-exchange

>implying the yuan value doesn't affect the dollar value and economists don't get seriously concerned over China purposely devaluing their currency

bitflur.com

It's great to cash the fuck out though

>which is basically a list that people keep updated on their computers

yeah gazzilion exchanges, miner pools, crypto scams ... etc. all of them corporate entities full of shit and greed who extort outrageous fees and require ton of papers are "just people".

In the same time :

>bbbut muh ebil banks.... and goberment

never changer libertards

>That seems like a convoluted way of saying stealing all your bitcoin is as easy as figuring out a few characters.
Try to figure out a 64 character password. Here's an example of a bitcoin private key. Do you know how long it would take to guess this?
E9873D79C6D87DC0FB6A5778633389F4453213303DA61F20BD67FC233AA33262

It would take the greatest supercomputer approximately 0.65 billion billion years. This is assuming that someone constructed a dyson sphere around the sun to capture all its energy and devote it solely to counting numbers, and then when the sun dies, to move the dyson sphere to a new star.

Charlie Lee, creator of Litecoin, the world’s seventh-largest cryptocurrency, wrote in a Nov. 30 Twitter post, “There’s a fear going on that the recent price rise was helped by printing of USDT (Tether) that is not backed by USD in a bank account.”

Anyone serious about bitcoins and using actual hard earned money to get involved needs to know this game is now rigged and not going to operate quite differently.
((JP. Morgan)) Openly opposes bitcoin

I know, it's rampant speculation. I also know I bought a bitcoin many years ago just to do online biz when paypal isn't accepted or favorable, and it turned to $11,5k I can cash out any time I want by turning it into gold or silver (my favorite hobby and store of value) on apmex. But I'm just going to let it do what it want, a fun gamble. Keep in mind everything you say has been said at every step along the way.

Also my mother asked me about this bitcoin stuff she's been hearing about, so I told her imho it's a bubble and to stay away - hope you are all advising normie family members the same way.

pic related, cap of my shitcoins

Even a massive increase in computing power can be countered by building this into the core code. For instance the encryption standard called Bcrypt uses time to prevent brute force attacks. No matter how strong a computer is, there's still a fixed time hurdle that can't be overcome with brute force. This is just one solution, people have already considered the quantum computing issue facing bitcoin.

The fact that is cool technology (for now at least) doesn't change the fact that when there are no regulations and market protections, there are pump and dump schemes, fraud, whales manipulating prices, speculative bubbles and all. And that is Bitcoin now, we are not talking like a few years ago.

All you guys don't get how crypto works.

The basic idea is as follows:

1. Own a large mining farm.

2. Start mining some obscure crypto.

3. Once people see its value going up, a bunch more start buying into it.

4. Self sustaining snowball, you ease off your mining operation while people are rushing in, if it starts to drop off you increase it to shore up the value(this gets the skeptics).

5. Once coin reaches high enough value, you sell(but again, not enough to cause a price drop).

6. After the snowballs steam runs out, the price crashes and the system repeats

Crypto is literally the realization of pump and dump stock.

Venezuelan authorities are actually too stupid to do blockchain analysis.

see
You aren't limited to guess work look at all the ways hackers have compromised people's keys besides keyloggers and compromising computers directly, they have gotten ISPs to transfer device credentials through social manipulations alone.

>This is assuming that someone
Made some great development in quantum computing.

bitflur is great but it only lets you cash out 1k at a time

The problem with bitcoin is that it literally has zero value. It isn't backed by anything. To make matters worse, you can't convert U.S. dollars into bitcoin, which means it is being affected by the Jewry at the Federal Reserve.

For bitcoin to actually work, it must be backed by silver/gold. However, to convert the silver/gold into a digital code, you must give someone (or something) like a bank the silver/gold to store. This means a bank must get involved by using the encryption technology, but it can only do that if other banks use the same encryption technology. If the banks are centralized, this kind of defeats the whole purpose behind bitcoin.

What does all this means? Bitcoin is threatening the U.S. Federal reserve by competing with it by not having anything tangible assets backing it. Encrypted currency alone doesn't solve the problem with the U.S. Federal Reserve, which is that U.S. banking has been centralized.

U.S. banking must be decentralized to destroy the Jewry. Bitcoin alone won't work.

Correction: you can convert U.S. dollars into bitcoin

>only 1k at a time
fuckoff thats a lot of money for some of us

The fact that is cool technology (for now at least) doesn't change the fact that when there are no regulations and market protections, there are pump and dump schemes, fraud, whales manipulating prices, speculative bubbles and all. And that is Bitcoin now, we are not talking like a few years ago.

The most fraud-filled pump and dump scheme with whales manipulating prices and speculative bubbles is the stock market, because it's injected with infinite liquidity by the Federal Reserve. It's completely distorted and corrupt beyond anything bitcoin could ever attempt. At least bitcoin is decentralized. If you don't like chaos, then you're not a true free market capitalist, because out of chaos comes a natural spontaneous order. If you aren't a true capitalist then bitcoin probably isn't for you, you should invest in something that is more highly-regulated and propped up by the state, like shares of Coca Cola or something.

Yes, I mean that is cool, and that is how it should be treated a fun gamble that happened to work out, and lets see what happens in terms of the future. And I agree normies are going to get fucked if/when they go in, this is like slot machines and unless you are in an intelligence agency or own a coin yourself or are a very skilled Elliott Wave Theorist, probably you won't be able to time the ups and downs.

It is a fun ride but lots of retail speculators will be hurt if they get in now or got in mid-year. That is even if it doubles next year (which it might).

But think about it rationally, the crypto-market is $600 billion, based on "technology" with no profit whatsoever, bigger than every company in the world save for Apple and Alphabet. How long will this last before it crashes? I'd take the gold now, just my opinion. If it doubles next year it would be the 17th largest stock exchange in the world with no actual profit or regulation lol

is it? maybe you should read my post and understand the absolute money that is now involved and available on this shit. china has fucking warehouses with mining rigs.. massive builds powered by us sold coal. the us has.. derivatives exchanges on it now. what you typed became irrelevant the end of december. your now gambling on pink sheet style .0001 stocks for lack of a better word. best of luck with that.

exactly - that is why there are so many now - electronic "legal"pump and dump based on taking money from suckers. It is a dirty game, but profitable until people crack down on it

That is actually another weakness, since its also incredibly easy to lose your key and lose all your bitcoin because of how hard it is to remember a private key. Do you ever wonder how much of the total bitcoin is lost forever due to broken devices and forgotten keys?

>For bitcoin to actually work, it must be backed by silver/gold
No? Not at all. It doesn't have to be backed by anything except its own network. Gold isn't backed by anything either, yet it has value. Bitcoin is digital gold.

It's definitely not for idiots, that's for sure. Personally I encrypt all my private keys, and then store them in multiple places, both in the cloud and on physical devices. If you encrypt the keys yourself before uploading them to the cloud, there's nothing to worry about. Your own password is inside your head, and that password is needed to decrypt the private keys.

Yeah, it is a big clusterfuck. Money printing to infinity doesn't work, nor does an electronic currency backed by nothing. We will see what comes up next. Probably the gold backed yuan in another 5-10 years, but I doubt that could happen peacefully.

We need a store of value. The US cannot and will not provide it. We are searching now, and Bitcoin is at least a recognition that the current system sucks, so it is a step in the right direction in that sense.

Yes but people stealing private keys isn't an intrinsic weakness of bitcoin itself. That's a separate issue. People need to take care with their personal information.

>Gold isn't backed by anything either
Physical utility.

I'm not disputing that. Dark money props up the markets, and there actually should have been no stock market gains since 2009, and of course trillion dollar deficits are unsustainable. But I have student loans and those stay with me for life, so I use cash as a store of value for now - it is legal and I save on interest by paying my loans with cash. Crypto speculation would make it easier but I could lose all of my hard earned fiat and don't want to risk it, when the market determines price and it could go up or down based on FUD.

Bitcoin has utility as well. Decentralized and abstract storage of wealth. Easily transferable. Unable to be blocked or molested by banks or governments. Gold might have utility as components in electronics, but that's not why people hold gold, and have for thousands of years. Gold is a store of value.

>People need to take care with their personal information.
Did you miss the part where hackers have bypassed people directly in many cases and gone straight for ISPs?
Relying on encryption keys is its intrinsic weakness because its the entire security mechanism.

>Crypto speculation would make it easier but I could lose all of my hard earned fiat and don't want to risk it, when the market determines price and it could go up or down based on FUD.
Then stay on the sidelines. Crypto is not for pansies user. If an investment was a sure thing, it would offer almost no returns, like U.S. Treasury bonds (currently 2.04% return after 10 years.) Increased risk usually correlates with increased potential reward.

That's EXACTLY it user, it takes a ton of money to invest in and profit from. I really want to invest in Ethereum, but I feel like the only way to make any sort of profit would be to put in +$500 into it, but I could only do $100 AT MOST right now :(

ISP's can't access your offline computer. I encrypt my private keys offline, it's called pre-internet encryption.

Store of value in the computing world is like a language to end all languages. There is always a way around it and always innovation. If people want your money they will get it if they are determined enough, having said that, it is too much of a bother for most people in most situations to try to hack any individual account.

>abstract
>physical
You are using circular reasoning saying that the abstract storage of wealth is backed by the utility of having an abstract storage of wealth.

I know it's a difficult concept to grasp, but just try. The faith in bitcoin is partly due to the fact that bitcoin is abstract and secure.

Is it too late to get into Bitcoins now?

Yes, this is true and in the sense of wanting to no what its actual value is and not price speculate, I am a "pansy" but the point of this thread was to present me with arguments that it has value apart from price - this is what sustains the investor through difficult times and price drops, as there have been in the past with Bitcoin, and to me, value depends on profits - market earned, not noobies looking to get into it, like Myspace or Facebook accounts. Basically, whatever the utility, social networks are governed by Metcalfe's Law for valuation, which says that their price is a function of the square root of the number of users, which is not related to its utility directly. Basically if people lose faith in Bitcoin, regardless of its utility that is what determines its "worth" or "price" and that is independent of its value. The fact that China can start its own Facebook close indicates not that Facebook has value but that the "value" is in the fact that there is no other viable competitor for its function, but with Bitcoin, there are 1300 other competitors, with like maybe 5-10 serious ones that can erode its market share, hence faith, hence "worth"

No.
But it's too late to make gorrillians without doing anything.
Best you can hope for is 6x by the end of 2018

Dude, I am sorry that you are even asking that question, the theoretical max price is $20 K, that was almost reached this year. A good time was early 2015, but nowadays price is just speculation only, so basically YES

You can't utilize bitcoin offline at some point you will have to establish a connection to make a transaction.

No, your logic is just flawed, its not the abstract storage that is backing it up, its all the physical calculation and hard computing power that went into finding all the prime number pairs and encryption sequences.

why did Trump take down Rosie?

If you believe bitcoin is going to 10x in price again then it isn't too late. But look at the price. And transaction fees are in the dozens of dollars. If you have some money to gamble, read up on alt coins and put them in cheap/new ones you think will be popular. An alt coin going from next to nothing to a penny is much more likely and much more profitable than $100k bitcoin.

6x by 2018, you are smoking crack, that would be approaching the valuation of Saudi Aramco for a bunch of digits with 1300 competitors, that will not happen for sure. Yes, technology is cool, but without any profits, its viability is a mirage.

I wouldn't worry about "market share" in terms of crypto. If bitcoin loses market share fair and square, that's fine. It's actually a good thing because it means there is something better. The consumer benefits.

Again good advice, but the main thing is it is a gamble, and 95-99% is shit. If you want to price speculate, Ripple or Ethereum of Cardano would be better, these won't go to nothing and will probably increase next year, amirite?

>the theoretical max price is $20 K
No, there is no theoretical limit stopping it from making one satoshi = one penny.

yes, the general consumer benefits, but there will be a price decline, and that is what I care about if I want to make money primarily

I don't dispute that and the theoretical equilibrium price could well be $0. But the calculation is that the max value of the social network for Bitcoin is $20 K per coin, regardless of where we are in the mining stage for all of them. And that has basically been reached, so now we are on the downward end of valuing a tulip.

Ethereum will require at least 1000 ETH to stake and make interest and validate transactions. That's like $1 million dollars at current prices and there are going to be "staking pools" where the plebs with less can earn interest. WTF does sound like to you? It sounds to me like the fucking banks have designed this thing to work exactly the same as the status quo. There are proof-of-stake coins out there that don't require a minimum number of coins, or at least not so high. No good reason to artificially set a floor IMO.

Listen, it is a fascinating topic, it is good to get free from banksters and fun to make money. This is all good, I just am not persuaded in Bitcoin as a store of value rather than Bitcoin as a cohesive, ever improving, social network to transfer money as the fiat world implodes.

>But the calculation is that the max value of the social network for Bitcoin is $20 K per coin
What calculation? Everyone person who participates in bitcoin has their own value theory and calculation.

Ripple is even more bank-controlled. Crypto is going quite quickly to the hidden hand.

>You can't utilize bitcoin offline at some point you will have to establish a connection to make a transaction.
You were saying that ISP's were being used to steal people's private keys. Well if your private key is encrypted offline, they'd only be stealing an encrypted and useless key. Then when you want to go online you can simply use a proxy or VPN or any other method of protecting yourself from ISP snooping. This is basic stuff user.
>No, your logic is just flawed, its not the abstract storage that is backing it up, its all the physical calculation and hard computing power that went into finding all the prime number pairs and encryption sequences.
The computing power aspect is only part of what backs up bitcoin. The total pooled computing power of the bitcoin network adds security, but there are alot of reasons why people have faith in bitcoin and hold it. The size of the network, like you said, is one, on top of other reasons like I listed before.

>start mining and cashing out each week since it was 3k
>invest more hardware
hardwares paid istself already whatever i make this year is literally free money

Yes, I mean, I can understand mining as a business, that is really the way to get into it - selling shovels in a gold rush is the way to make money, or like Trump, building hotels where people go to gamble, maybe I should get into this instead?

>The computing power aspect is only part of what backs up bitcoin.
No, it is the only physical utility that backs it up since the protocol is fairly simple, the only other reason you listed was its abstract function not what backs up the function with physical value and utility in the real world.

>bitcoinplus

>No, it is the only physical utility that backs it up since the protocol is fairly simple, the only other reason you listed was its abstract function not what backs up the function with physical value and utility in the real world.

A thing doesn't need utility to have value. Does a Picasso painting have utility? What about the statue of David? What is its utility? The recently sold Salvator Mundi by Da Vinci fetched a price of $400 million. Surely it must have real world physical utility right?

>but there is nothing to prevent another coin from being printed out of thin air and used to let the price surge.
there is though. ever wonder why some forks are worth more than others?
more regulation will stop these scammers ripping people off.

>But I'm still not persuaded that there is any value in a bunch of digits backed by other than belief in a social network that has no unique, limited supply, essential or necessary function.

That's why I only invest in centralized companies that utilize the blockchain for their product. Blockchain isn't only for currency.

Which banks are Jews in charge of exactly? Credit unions are taking customers from banks, or are those Jew run as well?

>Bitcoin is digital gold

Let me guess, you only buy gold on paper rather than physical.

>it can ONLY be bought with fiat
wrong.
you can charge people for goods or services in crypto, some people already do.

I use coinbase, any faster cheaper way to buy alt coins?

I can't say I'm into the crypto world to understand forks and why some are more valuable than others as I've never owned any. What I can say is that of the 1370 coins on the coin market cap website hundreds don't have actual websites or development teams listed, which I take to be evidence of a scam.

this thread is reducing my iq. the fuck is up with you nocoiners?

Hi OP you just described the current global banking system. Its just numbers on a computer no big pallets of physical cash/gold are trolleyed around its just numbers.
Your saying Bitcoin has no actual value but its currently valued at $13,537.40 USD. If you owned that digital coin you could trade it in for cash.People are also trading real life goods for coins.
Ive been looking it up as i got some bucks to burn so why not. So far ive learnt that people run mining rigs that perform the calculations for when people make a transaction when this is done the rig owner gets paid a cut of the transaction fee. Basically every transaction the miner gets a cut so you get fucking jewed by the miner. I read some people traded a few dollars and got charged double to do it. And sometimes the transaction takes days to compute. Theres also exchanges where you can buy sell all the different coins and keep them in the exchange, now some of these exchanges have been hacked and millions fucken stolen. I was also looking at the market and saw theres auto trader software to buy/sell. and people complaining of daily pump and dumps which are most probably from these auto programs. Its like the wild west. Now i tried to get some coins and the exchange here in nz asked for my details for verification and now i gotta wait so the govt here are tracking it most probably for tax or money laundering.
Now my theory on this crypto coin is Cartels, sanctioned countrys, and even maybe the pentagons black project are moving money through it. Plus every one jumping on board its a shit show. How many Bit coins have been lost as well. A guy in the news here threw away his rig at the dump and thinks its might be worth 70million now.

>alt coins
binance. buy ethereum on coinbase, then transfer it there and trade it.

I'm not persuaded in the value of Blockchain either - for me something has value if it makes profits, not if it is a cool technology or is a popular social network.

You can't completely ignore his response and type a bunch of unrelated random shit and pretend that counts as a conversation. Either address his point about Tether or commit suicide.

600 year old one of a kind painting in good condition by worlds most famous painter who was also one of (them). No utility same inherent value as my turtlecoin ledger