Are Paizo developers actually stupid?

Are Paizo developers actually stupid?

yes.

Stupid? Maybe.
Lazy? Definitely.

>It's the GM's responsibility to balance my shit.
Yeah. I already knew modern games companies thought this way, that's why I stopped giving them any money and started balancing my own shit instead of theirs.

>Fuck our game, design your own!
Okay

>mostly present in the view of folks... who are jealous
It's basically insulting customers.
>casters jealous of martials
A pitiful attempt at appending a thing that never happens to make their argument look unbiased.
>in my games
Anecdotal evidence hooray.
>the responsibility... lands on the GM's shoulders
The responsibility of polishing the product lies on the maker. I commit the sin of bringing /v/ into this, but this is the same as selling a half-made alpha version of a game for the full price and then claiming that "the responsibility to mod and polish our product to a playable condition lies on the players". It's just shifting responsibilities at this point.

Despicable display of unprofessionalism.

Too bad the general populace is too dumb to not give their wallet votes to a shitty company that has to be ousted from the market for the greater good.

>insulting customers
I've been seeing that from WotC and GW recently too. It's completely fucked up. Like they crunched the numbers and decided that grooming the whales and insulting and alienating anyone who might interfere with the whales' purchases would net them an additional $5.07 gross each quarter, rather than just taking the money of all their customers and having a happy community with less rabid whales.

Yes

I don't think he's entirely wrong when he says GMs need to balance their games. It's definitely part of a GMs job to balance their game based on the make up of the party in their individual games.

That being said, the core imbalance between PF classes is just plain bad design. Designers need to lessen the disparity between classes and jobs, and while game imbalance is going to happen, it shouldn't be an intentional part of RAW. When 100+ pages dedicate themselves to spells, why not also dedicate 100+ pages to martial maneuvers and combat capabilities? Every class should have a roughly equal number of good, well designed, and balanced options.

Wow, this fucking post ticks all the boxes, doesn't it? This has to be a bingo. It even does the whole "It's not a problem in MY games" thing.

As for them, it's a dangerous mix of stupidity and arrogance. The Paizo devs are dumb as shit and don't know the first thing about D&D 3.5, which is the game they threw some christmas lights and glitter on and called it their own. They don't know why 3.5 was bad, they don't know why it was unbalanced, they don't understand what 3.5's surface-level problems are never-fucking-mind the game's deepest problems.

That lack of understanding has led to Pathfinder, a game that fixes absolutely nothing that was wrong with 3.5 and in fact adds several of its own problems unique to PF. Add to this their incredible arrogance: these motherfuckers are completely incapable of admitting they've made a mistake, ever. To them, PF is their perfect little angel baby, perfect in every way, absolutely flawless, when it is in fact a horrible mutant child with too many arms, too few eyes, and permanently on life support. It's okay to love it, just don't pretend it's like the other kids.

This. I shouldn't have to introduce a binder full of houserules just to try and balance a game. A game should be reasonably balanced out of the box. I don't even give a game a second look if one-third of the character options take up two-thirds of the book, like they do with D&D and PF.

What about stripping down both classes?

>2012

How many times do we have to have this thread?

Almost a bingo, but not quite.

Though, I'm of the opinion that "jealous martials" should replace one of the existing squares.

I just realized that video games actually have this under control better than Paizo, at least in terms of the community.

>here's our early access thing, pay for it
>hey, skeleblobs are op to the point that there is no point to playing skeleblobs, you're going to fix this, right, like this isn't the actual completed version that you're going to charge us money for and stop working on
>mmmmmmmmmaybe your peoblem is with bad players in the community who play skeleblobs, more money please updates in three years i dunno lol stopped posting on twitter
>you're a scam artist and I'm telling everyone

And the reason is competition. People don't feel any weird urge to stick to their one game, because they know that if a game is popular but also a train wreck, there will be games that do the same thing but better coming along any second.

Brand loyalty is quaint, and the sooner people learn that brands will throw customers to the wolves at the first opportunity just to make a few bucks, the better.

Anyone has the screencap of one of them experimenting with his mouse as a sling to check what PCs should be able to achieve?

I don't have that one but I know what you're talking about. I do, however, have eight screencaps of Sean K. Reynolds defending poor defenseless Paizo's precious honor.

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This post was made 5 years ago. You are not going to hear anything that has been said before in this thread. Why do you keep posting.

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Came here to post this

Aaaaand done.

SKR may not work for Paizo anymore and he may have turned a new leaf, but if I see his name in a book's credits, I still brace myself for garbage.

>I've been seeing that from WotC and GW recently too.
They wouldn't do that if they felt the heat of competition breathing down their necks.

>And the reason is competition. People don't feel any weird urge to stick to their one game,
Yes. Burgers are cucks that play D&D for the sake of some imaginary nerd creds.

It’s really more that social media has made this shit super transparent and every time someone tells a grognard to fuck off it gets archived, immortalized, and added to the great book of sins so people can have a laundry list of missteps anyone has ever taken and is free to have shots taken at them until the day they die and forever more afterward until no one cares anymore.

fpbp

>Yeah. I already knew modern games companies thought this way, that's why I stopped giving them any money and started balancing my own shit instead of theirs.
old school games companies also thought this way.

>It's basically insulting customers.
>It's completely fucked up.

what? I thought Veeky Forums was this completely amoral, right of the strongest, no courtesy, only bare faced disdain favouring place. What gives that a company acting by those principles suddenly gets attacked for it?

what is it you fags want? do you just want to be Goku and shoot layzors out of your hands while also having high hitpoints and armor class? Then just play 4th ed. or some other game. This whole 'muh martials' shit is so annoying.

Memes and perception are different from the reality, and it varies from board to board. Veeky Forums is generally direct about things and doesn't sugarcoat it if we're pissed off, but we also tend (or at least, tended to) try and be polite when discussing things, up until the point someone decides to just be a cunt.

This, though pf is complete fucking garbage, you have to admit

I've always thought it weird that figher-types see evolutionary improvement in these games while spellcasters see revolutionary improvement.

I'm fine with going from magic missile to fireball to meteor swarm. But why aren't epic-level fighters cleaving mountains? Is there some fundamental problem with suspension of disbelief that a demigod fighter can do wondrous feats with his sword while its perfectly ok for wizards to alter reality with their words?

I thought 4e D&D would've been a good system for fixing this but its encoded into its class powers system too. Wizard with his huge AoE Meteor Swarm while the Fighter gets bonus damage to a single target. Baffling.

(In some ways, it was *worse* in 4e where wizards had all these combat powers added *as well as* ritual spellcasting)

I dont worry of it anymore, I just play a casting class and move on.

I want to be King Arthur. I want to be Beowulf. I want to be Odysseus. I want to be a competent, badass hero who is entirely capable of doing awesome things and is supported by the system in doing so. Asserting the ridiculous double standard that martial have to be entirely realistic while mages can do whatever they like is the heart of the problem.

>huge AoE Meteor Swarm
Which did less damage than the fighter, hit all targets (making it less useful in the battle), and ignores that it fell in line with specialties, all on a much weaker chassis.
> *as well as* ritual spellcasting
That could be taken by almost anyone for a feat.

Yes. This should be obvious by now.

There's a difference between anonymous cunts being rude to each other on an internet board, and a business acting cunty towards their customer base.

What does Godwins law have to do with this?

King Arthur had a magic sword. Beowulf can be replicated with magic strength enhancing gauntlets, Odysseus shot an arrow through some ax handle loops.

You can do those things rules as written now. The only thing stopping you is your limited imagination. You don't have the 'wiping your own ass' feat or the 'chew your food' feat but I'm sure your martial character can do those things fine. Just because you don't have a rule that says you can do +X damage to all enemies in a 30' radius doesn't mean you can't be a king.

And another thing on Odysseus, he got through most of his scraps with guile and wit, even when being fucked with by castors. You would never have thought to tie yourself to the bottom of sheep because there was never a paragraph about doing so in the handbook and that failure is on you.

Implying you can't do tactics to manoeuver so that you melee guys don't get roasted. Unless your party is braindead. Speaking of which...

I find it funny how adamant PF-fags are about personal minmaxing and optimisation, but at the same time so fucking awful at actual being good at the game they play: namely, teamwork, combos, action choice, positioning etc.

It's almost like they don't care about what proper powergamers care for (winning encounters), theirs is about having the biggest dick.

Yes, but Pathfinder is still the best fantasy RPG on the market because it has third-party designers who are much more competent than Paizo is.

Companies aren't people so they have no right to treat people the way we do.
Bare-faced egregiousness is our domain, they need to get the fuck out and get back to theirs.

Why even buy Pathfinder then? If all the goodies are 3rd party, that is.

It is like saying Bethesda did a good job with Skyrim because Skyrim has good modders.

>Beowulf can be replicated with magic strength enhancing gauntlets
Because that lets you swim for 7 days straight.

If you're pointlessly reductive and ignore the actual point of those examples, sure.

But yeah, no. 'Play Mother May I with the GM' is a shitty cop out and never excuses the rules not properly supporting martial excellence. Especially when spells just give casters a better bargaining position for playing 'Mother May I?' anyway.

Players should be creative, sure. That a system should give you good options to be creative With is still important, and a lack of them is something that can be legitimately criticised.

>he said, ignoring almost everything else in the post, even though almost the entire post was pointing out things that get ignored by retards who don't know what they're talking about

this is wholesome

To have abilities beyond "I attack" that don't suck and not have to wrestle with one of the worst skill and combat maneuver systems on the market to do anything that isn't "I attack".

Too bad that could only happen in a PF 2.0, and Starfinder isn't it.

You sound like a bitch.

What a relevant comment, user. Nice way to cement how stupid you are. Makes it easier to tell that user is right.

>Paizo are idiots

More news at eleven.

Also These:

RPGs are as much about social interaction as dice rolling. A bad GM will fuck up any game.

Try playing a pre-3e edition, and realize you are being a bitch about discussing things with your GM, both within and outside the game

You're right, I'm sorry. From now on, all martial characters get +100 on all damage rolls and can automatically hit all enemies they can and cannot see, also they get +200 on all skill checks. The rules now say the number is bigger. That should make you happy and allow for many head pats from your GM. Now you don't have to think or apply yourself. Just roll dice and no matter the number, you win.

Of course, that isn't enough is it? Ok, you twisted my arm. The book now says that all martial characters can launch fireballs out of their assholes or shoot lightning bolts out their eyes. The normal +100 damage bonus still applies, so don't worry. The number you roll on the dice will still be big.

What makes you think that people who demand equality of outcome would be good at their job?

I have no idea. I didn't make that bingo sheet and I don't understand that square either.

I agree with you, but I also wanna ask you what would be an example of a system that does it right?

I started RPGs with BECMI and still think you're full of shit. Deal with it.

Godwins law is that eventually someone will compare the topic to nazis ("you know who also wanted more gun control? The nazis"). Also known as "Hitler did X so X is bad"
in this case it's "4e did X so X is bad"

Amusingly, someone actually did a thought experiment with martials in 3.PF, running the maths and looking at abilities to see if a martial with plus infinite to attack and damage stayed relevant until level 20.

The general consensus of the analysis was that they still became irrelevant around level 10. Numbers was never the problem. The core systems are fundamentally not designed with martial excellence in mind, baking the stupid martial/caster double standard into the core rules.

None of your suggestions actually help or fix the problem. You'd need to start by redesigning the combat and skill system from the bottom up.

But the latter example is always true, where the former example is just not always true. For instance, Hitler was a socialist and socialism will save the world as soon as we get trump out of office.

Any of the actually good d20 systems. 4E, FantasyCraft, Legend, Mutants & Masterminds, all of them do what I want in a different way from the others.

>the only way to fix d&d is to make d&d into another game
I think people have been saying that since the 80s if I'm being honest

I mean, even discounting anything else, miss chance means that even +infinite attack will miss the wizard 50% of the time.

But couldn't a martial with infinite attack and damage destroy the world with a single punch?

Yeah Paizo devs are retards, everyone should play this guy's game instead.

So do immediate action abilities like Abrupt Jaunt.

If the GM was an idiot, sure.

>But the latter example is always true, where the former example is just not always true.
which examples do you mean? Because I've said three
>Nazis wanted gun control so gun control bad
>Hitler wanted X so X is bad
>4e did X so X is bad

Or a simple thing like Flight/Windwall. Out of range of melee, automatically deflecting ranged attacks.

The difference is that we can do whatever the fuck we want, while corporate scum don't have that privilege.

3.5, actually, with Tome of Battle. Which made martialfags scream about "weaboo fightan magic" because they don't actually want nice things, they just like to complain.

I mean that anything 4e did is always bad and not everything Hitler did (namely socialism) is bad.

>tome of butthole
Yeah no wonder you love it so much

I'm not sure who complained about it, everybody I know who grumbles about the martial/caster disparity fucking loves the Tome of Battle/Path of War. I just wish they weren't shackled to such cruddy base systems.

Maybe I am being reductive. I'm just a grognard that remembers when casters were balanced by the fact they had no AC and low HP. They were more likely to die before hitting level 2.

And they didn't get free spells either. They got what they found in random roll tables. Or maybe a specific spell scroll if the DM was generous.

While the martials were eventually building their own armies and forging their own kingdoms the wizards were working on researching A spell. And they would need the martials help eventually to finish it. And the martial would come along because they were bound to get magic items out of the adventure.

>everyone who hates western rpgs loves anime
Yeah, gee that's shocking

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Or maybe just not play D&D

So you've never actually read the Tome of Battle then?

You only have a point with the Swordsage, and they're no more anime than a monk theoretically should be. The Warblade was a mundane fighter who just happened to have some actually interesting mechanics to play with, without any necessary change to the settings aesthetics.

And that's without getting into how stupid the idea that extraordinary martials = anime is, given the examples in the image of

>weeaboo damage control magic
bla bla bla bla bla bla bla nobody cares naruto enjoy your bleach

>I thought 4e D&D would've been a good system for fixing this but its encoded into its class powers system too. Wizard with his huge AoE Meteor Swarm while the Fighter gets bonus damage to a single target. Baffling.
Are you sure you read 4th edition mate? Because fighters sure as hell got more then songle target damage by levelling up.

what's the original from? Looks like "Kaguya wants to be confessed to" but I can't remember seeing that scene before

This is exactly what I'm talking about.
>martial/caster disparity is a problem
>supplement fixes it in the only way it's possible to do so without turning wizards into glorified archers
>people make excuses to complain about it because they just like to complain

>all the fixes are garbage
>all the thematics are garbage
Gee I wonder why it was universally reviled. Face it kiddo, the book is bad.

Ignore the troll, user. They're likely just here to stir shit.

Although it's also fair to point out that the ToB/PoW aren't perfect fixes. They have their own problems, and even in the best case they're only tier 3/4 classes, which still requires eliminating core casters to actually run a balanced game. It's not ideal.

>But why aren't epic-level fighters cleaving mountains?
Because a lot (certainly not all!) of fighter players doesn't want to play cinematic, high-level games and tend to prefer more realistic games. Which obviously isn't possible after certain level.

I play OSR and have no problem with women in gaming.

Then again, OSR is far less complicated than 3.5/PF and a bit less complex than 5e, so maybe I pass this guy's test.

Oh, well.

What is good alternative for DnD?

At that point it's just a matter of a system crippling itself by trying to do everything. Having high fantasy casters alongside realistic fighters just doesn't work. You'd either need them both to start low fantasy and scale slowly, which would piss of wizard players, or you'd need to abandon the low fantasy side and embrace all the characters being blatantly heroic, which is one of the many things people complained about in 4e.

Nobody plays OSR, female or otherwise.

Yea, sure. Exactly my point. I don't think this conundrum has solution. But maybe DnD 6e will surprise us...
probably not, though.

>maybe I pass this guy's test.
I don't know, do you have a male penis?

Then don't start playing his game. Your fired from spending money on WotC products.

>Your fired from spending money on WotC products.
So you're saying that he's allowed to pirate it? Nice

Only faggots play martial

Then why are casters the guys who wear dresses?

>6E lead designer, Griffin McElroy
>Only 3 stats
>Roll the dice just to hear the noise, the result doesn't matter because all players automatically succeed on all checks.
>there are no combat rules, just a section on combating negative stereotypes while also being full of stereotypes about neckbeards.

6e by WW when