D&D

Not in the 5e DMG.

/thread BTFO

Why are people still bitching about alignment? Alignments are now optional and have no mechanical effect on the game outside of homebrew.

Because skeletons don't crumble into death when the spell wears off, those same possessing spirits, now free from the clerics influence, tell said skeletons to kill any life they find or go to a place where other like minded spirits gather. Now you have 8 skeletons that will butcher anything they come across, including innocents such as women and children, whereas mass suggestion merely influenced a bunch of people to assist with a task, afterwards they may be pissed off, but they won't start killing anyone they come across like madmen

First up, that's wrong. Monster Manual p272, skeletons will attack living creatures only if living creatures approach. They won't actively seek out living creatures.

Second, the cleric orders the skeletons to kill themselves near the end of the spell Wow, that was hard.

Those souls the clerics are making for their undead spirits are made of wadded-up balls of negative energy. Negative energy is pure evil, taken from a dimension of evil, and every time that stuff gets loose it makes the world worse in various ways.

You are making the world a worse place so that you can have some soulless minion - That's why just casting the spell is evil. The Wizard's using a spell that is just using resources from the same plane. The spell itself is not evil; What the wizard's actions imply are evil. But the cleric, whatever his intentions are, just dragged in a lot of pure, raw evil into the world, and that shit doesn't just go away once the skeletons are gone.

Congratulations, you cast a spell, and the divorce rate just went up .001%.

>The gods decide what is good and what is evil
Wrong

Yes. It's Grave domain in 5e, and it was something like Rest domain in 3.5

>Negative energy is pure evil, taken from a dimension of evil
Except that negative energy and positive energy don't have alignment traits.

They're both necessary for the world to exist. You might as well say that using positive energy to heal someone is also evil because it unbalances the world.

Grave domain exists in Xanathar's, but Nephthys and Anubis still give the Death domain and therefore automatic Animate Dead.

So those gods are cool with undead crap.

If negative energy is pure evil, then why isn't positive energy pure good? And who says that negative energy is pure evil anyway?

Doesn't mean shit. All clerics get Animate Dead, including clerics of Kelemvor, Lathander and Pelor. You would know that, if you actually played the game instead of shitposting.

Those clerics have to deliberately and voluntarily prepare Animate Dead.

If you're a cleric of Nephthys, your domain is Death and you're getting Animate Dead automatically prepared. Nephthys is Chaotic Good.

Maybe you should try reading the game instead of shitposting.

Read the descriptions for the planes and for energy, it's right there. and you're right, positive energy is pure good, it counteracts negative energy directly.

5e PHB p300:
>Positive and Negative Planes
>Like a dome above the other planes, the Positive Plane is the source of radiant energy and the raw life force that suffuses all living beings, from the puny to the sublime. Its dark reflection is the Negative Plane, the source of necrotic energy that destroys the living and animates the undead.

5e DMG p43:
>The Positive and Negative Planes. These two planes enfold the rest of the cosmology, providing the raw forces of life and death that underlie the rest of existence in the multiverse.

5e DMG p227:
>Destroying the Wand. Destroying the Wand of Orcus requires that it be taken to the Positive Energy Plane by the ancient hero whose skull surmounts it. For this to happen, the long-lost hero must first be restored to life-no easy task , given the fact that Orcus has imprisoned the hero's soul and keeps it hidden and well guarded.
>Bathing the wand in positive energy causes it to crack and explode, but unless the above conditions are met, the wand instantly reforms on Orcus 's layer of the Abyss.

Nothing about alignment in them aside from Orcus's wand being weak to positive energy, but that's because, you know, Orcus is an undeath dude.

Negative energy is pretty essential for the multiverse. Without the force of decay and death, the multiverse is fucked and cancerous beyond repair. That's what Ragnorra wants.

Egyptians deaths gods threaten to unleash legions of the dead over petty shit.

>N-n-no you
Not an argument.

Because necromancy kidnaps the eternal souls of innocents, keeps them away from their final destination to force them to serve as your puppets. And if you lose track of your abominations they end up killing more innocents.
"B-but I will just tell the skeletons to kill themselves when I don't need them anymore"
If you die, or go unconscious or lose the ability to control them for another reason that plan goes out the drain and they will attack anything living they come across.

>Because necromancy kidnaps the eternal souls of innocents

Except it doesn't. Go read the Monster Manual entries on skeletons and zombies, dingus.

Good things you argued within the context laid out in OP.

>If you die, or go unconscious or lose the ability to control them for another reason that plan goes out the drain and they will attack anything living they come across.
Animate Dead doesn't care if you go unconscious.

You're still in control of them and they still obey your commands.

They'll only attack the living if they're completely uncontrolled. That's what the PHB and the Monster Manual lay out.

In many way suggestion is worse than brain washing, a brainwashed person is just being used as a tool, a victim of suggestion is forced to do thing they normally wouldnt by their own devices.

you made the point in the first place by pointing out his lack of knowledge and then he pointed out your actual lack of knowledge how is this a no you you autistic fuck

>skeletons will attack living creatures only if living creatures approach.
Hmm
>rabbit wanders near skeletons
>skeletons give chase
>rabbit zooms by a woodsman
>skeletons attack woodsman
>woodsman barely makes it to nearby village
>skeletons followed him

I mean on some level you're calling the restful dead back to be your bitches for a little while, but this is why people tailor their settings to things that make sense

5e thankfully doesnt gives a shit about this anymore, at least mechanics-wise, who gives a fuck about what the lore says?

Only if they're uncontrolled. Go read the Monster Manual.

Skeletons will attack living creatures only if they're uncontrolled. Animate Dead asserts control for 24 hours, even if you're unconscious.

>I mean on some level you're calling the restful dead back to be your bitches for a little while
Nope.

The Monster Manual says that skeletons have animating undead spirits, but those are NOT the original soul the body belonged to.

>he

>Undead spirits
>Undead
Nigger where do you think undeath comes from? Even if it's a different soul / body combination, both must have died to be used in this fashion. It's necromancy not transmutation you fucking mundane troglodyte

The magic creates an animating spirit for the skeleton, dingus. Go read the Monster Manual.

Then who does?

I've literally just read three and not a one even came close to mentioning your bullshit. What garbage edition are you on about?

The fabric of the planes.

If it's 3.X, mindless undead don't have souls. Go read Libris Mortis.

If it's 5e, go read the Monster Manual.

Way to give no specifics in the first instance and all of them in the second. Its almost like you were trying to start with the presupposition that we agree that the first situation wasn't entirely based on context.

But here's the skinny, creating undead is evil in D&D because the undead created there are INHERENTLY EVIL due to the negative energy that they are animated by.

I'll ask you this: Do you think that summoning demons is an evil act, because much in the same way that undead are they too are INHERENTLY EVIL.

Spells in 5e don't have alignment tags, do they?

>I'll ask you this: Do you think that summoning demons is an evil act, because much in the same way that undead are they too are INHERENTLY EVIL.
Ahahahahahaha, that's a good one. You know the Malconvoker from 3.5 was a non-evil-only fiend-summoning prestige class, right?

>Spirit != Soul
>It says so in this splat book

>5th edition

Now I get it. You're actually retarded

Not if you get killed, though. Or if you oversleep and fail to renew the control in time. Oh, and there are no alarm clocks. And you can't renew the control once its broken. Being 6 seconds late is enough to turn obedient undead slave into uncontrollable murdermachine.

>You might as well say that using positive energy to heal someone is also evil because it unbalances the world.
Well no, because you're the one who claimed that the world needs both in the first place.

Libris Mortis is for 3.X.

Renew it with an hour of control time.

You mean the class that has to have special dispensation by the rules to make the evil shit they do non-evil for them because reasons? The one that still doesn't make the creatures that they summon any less evil?

>according to Veeky Forums logic
It's evil according to everyone's logic because Necromancy literally floods the Material world with negative energy to power the skeletons. Remember, absolute evil (and good) exist in DnD and can be measured in Watts.

Then explain what the Positive and Negative Energy Planes are for.

Malconvokers don't have any special dispensations to make it non-evil. It's already non-evil.

Except negative energy has nothing to do with cosmic evil. You're looking for the Lower Planes.

I told you, guys.

I TOLD you he'll create another thread of "wah wah negative energy isn't evil!"

Don't listen to what these fucktards are saying in this thread

Mass Suggestion is evil, because you are influencing their mind without their consent.
This is basically mind rape and rape is evil therefor mind control is also evil.

Animate Dead is not evil, because you are using your negative energy to reanimate the skeletons
like a puppet which is not evil. It's like controlling those puppets in Naruto by using your energy.
And last time I check, controlling puppets is not evil.

In pathfinder it’s because undead always have the chance of causing other undead to spontaneously raise and all undead when uncontrolled seek the systematic extermination of all life.

Specifically skeletons will arm themselves and use military tactics in a sort of necromatic hive mind in an attempt to ensure the extermination of all life.

Neerrh... can I get a sauce for this one? Stupid reverse image search is just producing some VtM faggot blogs.

>I TOLD you he'll create another thread of "wah wah negative energy isn't evil!"
d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#negativeEnergyPlane

Doesn't look like the Negative Energy Plane is evil.

According to undead uprising in pathfinder undead just being around may cause corpses to spontaneously begin rising from the dead. Undead being around is a stupidly big risk when undead uprisings are possible and in the worse case scenario end with extra planar super under ripping a hole in reality to pull its way through to lead armies of the damned against the living.

Also groups of uncontrolled skeletons arm themselves and use military tactics to try and exterminate the living, despite being mindless.

Tokyo Akazukin.

It was like Redrobin hood or something
If you can find it, please give source here?

>>level 17 bard, sorcerer, or wizard
>>uses Mass Suggestion to beguile a dozen people into doing a course of action for a year and a day
>>not evil at all
And that's where you're potentially wrong.

Suggesting someone for a year and a day can very well be an evil action. It depends on what the suggestion is.

Mass Suggesting a group of wife beaters at a voluntary therapy centre to not be an their wives is not evil at all, for example.

Mass suggesting a group of random bystanders to "just kill urself lmao" is evil.

K. Thx.

It's like you fuckers forget that desecrating bodies has a direct impact on afterlives or something. The Egyptian idea of taking it with you when you go cuts both ways, and it was only very recently that improperly disposed of Catholics didn't wind up in purgatory. Raising the body to do menial tasks or fight for you is not a proper funeral rite.

No its not, it says that such actions do not threaten a change in your alignment. E.g. Its still evil, but you don't take an alignment shift for doing it, much in the same way doing a minor evil act won't change your alignment.

*google search it*
Now that's what I call edgy, I'll see you guys in a bit.

Well shit. I thought it'd be something interesting based on the image, but in the end, it's just some very typical repugnant pedowank. Japanese people have no imagination, just as they have no mores.

How much of the lore on positive/negative energy in this thread is canon and how much is personal interpretation?

Why do they have to be "for" anything? Sometimes useless, dangerous shit just exists.

Yes

Why aren't there "deathless-mancers" who dig up graves and make deathless using positive energy, instead of undead?

Doesn't Eberron's elves from Aerenal do just that?

"Yes" isn't an answer to a "how much" question.

No.

It is now, and that should actually tell you something about this thread

>what is zoimancy
just get married already, son

lurk more

"Good" necromancers threads are all canon-disputing personal interpretation by people who have only read the SRD.

So where's the canon from 5e books on "Yeah, even if you're a cleric of chaotic good Nephthys, using your automatically granted Animate Dead is evil"?

This is the problem with you 5e-only newfags who habitually masturbate over /wbg/ your functionally illiterate and exclusively get your knowledge from youtube actual plays.

Bitch, I'm looking at my folder of 2e Planescape and 3.X PDFs, but they're different editions. You can't just port over old editions' assumptions into 5e.

Show me the canon from 5e books on "Yeah, even if you're a cleric of chaotic good Nephthys, using your automatically granted Animate Dead is evil."

Book and page number, please.

I'll start you off with my own citation. PHB pp297-298:
>The Egyptian pantheon is unusual in having three gods with the Death domain of different alignments. Anubis is the lawful neutral god of the afterlife, who udges the souls of the dead. Set is a chaotic evil god of murder, perhaps best known for killing his brother Osiris. And Nephthys is a chaotic good goddess of mourning. Thus, although most clerics of the Death domain (found in the Dungeon Master's Guide) are villainous characters, clerics who serve Anubis or Nephthys need not be.

Is this bait?

I'm a person totally unrelated to the discussion I'm answering

I just want to say that I would change the Animate Dead spell depending on which God you serve
>Anubis
>Take a voluntary soul from the afterlife to help you by animating a dead body, it returns to afterlife when the deed is done
>Set
>Put a soul into a dead body by force and bend it to your will until you release it OR animate only recently killed bodies with their own souls that didn't went through the Trial yet
>Nephtys
>Can't actually animate bodies but can call souls from the afterlife to talk with you OR let a voluntary soul take control of your body to help you do something you don't have the skill for while the soul does
By doing this, the spell and the God alignments are mostly the same

You're missing the point being made, in previous editions players had access to explanations on why exactly animate dead is objectively evil depending on the campaign setting, your example wouldn't work because deities generally don't have precise control of how souls behave or how the metaphysics of necromancy works; even if it was a voluntary soul placing it inside a dead body is like wrapping it up tightly in barbed wire with razor blades attached, the damage done is unrecoverable, it breaks the soul permanently.

>deities generally don't have precise control of how souls behave or how the metaphysics of necromancy works;
Then they also might not have control over exactly what their clerics can do. Having it as an automatic spell just means that the cleric could easily do it given their knowledge and connection to death, not that they would or should.

>in previous editions players had access to explanations on why exactly animate dead is objectively evil depending on the campaign setting

Oh really now, is that so?

Show me the lore in 3.X Greyhawk and 3.X Eberron on why making undead is evil. Book and page numbers.

Oh wait, it's not because of any setting, it's because of 3.X tagging Animate Dead as [evil].

Animate Dead making a skeleton has never pulled souls from the afterlife in any edition of D&D ever.

Y'all be pulling shit out your ass.

Like you said, it depends on the setting
In your example, if it damaged the soul, neither Anubis nor Nephtys would allow you to do that
Animating remains like a puppet would also be evil since Egyptian's respect for the dead

>What is refluffing?

Depends on the setting

Why would you refluff a spell to make it more evil?

When did I say it was more evil?

Pulling souls from the afterlife.

>What do you mean unleashing a rabid dog powered by negative energy is evil? It doesn't contain a soul!
Autism, not even once.

Have you ever read the republic?

Forcibly pulling whatever soul is evil,pulling a voluntary one isn't

Skeletons controlled by Animate Dead aren't rabid.

Except Animate Dead doesn't do that.

>Skeletons controlled by Animate Dead aren't rabid.
Until you fail a check, die or don't have enough spell-slots to recast, then they become rabid.

>Also groups of uncontrolled skeletons arm themselves and use military tactics to try and exterminate the living, despite being mindless.

>mfw skeletons steal kevlar and firearms from army base

>Show me the lore in 3.X Greyhawk and 3.X Eberron on why making undead is evil. Book and page numbers.

Book of Vile Darkness Page 8.

>Except Animate Dead doesn't do that.
See and

That one doesn't really matter because Animate Dead in 3.X has the [evil] tag, so it's evil either way in 3.X.

THAT SAID:
>Book of Vile Darkness
>Eberron
Nope.