That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Vector" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. 9mms deserve much worse than that. Much, much worse than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine Glock in Georgia for $300 (that's about $300) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can't even double tap with my Glock.
Glock smiths spend years working on Perfection™ and stipple it up to a million times to produce some of the biggest pieces of shit known to mankind.
Glocks are barely half as powerful as .45 and half as fast for that matter too. Anything a .45 can stop, a 9mm would bounce off. I'm pretty sure a Glock would break trying to shoot a knight wearing full plate with any kind of shot placement.
Ever wonder why Nazi Germany never bothered conquering Europe? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Americans and their M1911s and Thompsons in .45 ACP of destruction. Even in World War II, German soldiers targeted the men with the Thompsons first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? 9mm (and by extension, all pistols, because shot placement is more important than actual ballistic capabilities) is simply the worst caliber that the world has ever seen, and thus, require worse stats( I believe moving all pistols to around 22lr would overall make them more balanced and require a greater knowledge to use these pieces of shit effectively) in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Glocks:
(One-Handed Exotic Weapon) 1d4 Damage x2 Crit -2 to hit and damage Can never count as Masterwork Now that seems a lot more representative of the stopping power of 9mm in real life, don't you think?
tl;dr = 9mm need to do much less in d20, see my new stat block.
For a second I had to check what board I was on to make sure I wasn't on /k/. Is this the modern games thread now?
Nathan Wilson
I think it's a mis-placed /k/ humour thread...
Luis Baker
You know they make a Glock in .45 ACP, right? And 40 SW, and 10mm Auto, and .357 SIG.
Your pasta is stale either way.
Ian Rogers
>implying glocks don't just explode at random from the pressure of dealing with actual calibers
Elijah Moore
>commissioned glock
wat
Ayden Richardson
What are you talking about. You can't reduce the damage on all pistol rounds. There are pistols that fire rifle rounds like the 5 two seven you idiot.
Nathan Bennett
Assuming this is a fa/tg/uy /k/ommando thread, and acknowledging it is a troll, here are a few fixes I used running d20 modern.
1: Glocks are still masterwork, but other guns are in similar price ranges (Ie., H&K offerings like the P2000, Beretta 92FS, even the S&W M&P 2.0). In short, if it is the $500-600 range, it is PROBABLY a masterwork weapon. alternatively, give penalties to weapons below that, such as shitty Saturday Night Specials.
2: as a historical note, old 9x19mm loadings are much more potent than common 115gr Winchester White Box loadings (9mm NATO is based on old ammo specs, which are basically +P). 9mm also goes much, much faster than .45 ACP.
3: As an option, you can make HP = con score, then have armor class act as damage reduction. The average person has 10 HP. As such, a 9mm pistol doing 2d6 damage has a reasonable chance of actually killing someone, but it is still relatively unlikely.
4: There are so many variations of glock that saying "glocks are weak" is effectively as vague as saying "trucks are too weak". Which model? I assume 9mm, but that's also like assuming Ford F150, when you may be talking about a Chevy silverado or something.
5: The Glock smith/armorer course is literally like 5 hours.
Brandon Myers
*I assume 9mm g17 or g19, or even the subcompacts for that matter
Alexander Reed
Guessing D20 was written by people who saw Die Hard 2 and just thought "oooooh plastic gun must be magic!"
I carry one because I don't give a shit if something happens to it. They are the definition of "good enough", reminiscent of your basic long sword that you could get at the beginning of the game.
When I think Masterwork I think Wilson Combat, Nighthawk Custom etc.
Charles Nelson
>Glocks are barely half as powerful as .45 and half as fast for that matter too. Anything a .45 can stop, a 9mm would bounce off. /k/ bait? In my Veeky Forums?
Tyler Cook
>for $300 (that's about $300)
Aiden Jenkins
>five seven >rifle round 5.7x28 is a fucking meme caliber. In any non AP load it's a glorified .22 WMR, it's probably not much better if loaded with AP. That being said, there are pistols loaded in rifle cartridges like the CVA scout, Remington Xp-100, and the classic thompson center contender and the encore.
Ryder James
Of course it's a rifle round, that's why the case is necked down.
Matthew Green
I'm going to assume you're fucking with me. Because there are other pistol cartridges that exist that are necked down. 5.7 was never designed as a rifle cartridge, solely developed to work for the P90 and it's companion the 5.7.
Jacob Collins
>the p90 isn't a rifle
3/10 projection, it's you that's fucking with people
Christian Adams
1: Glocks are definitely NOT masterworks, have you seen how many times these cheap pieces of plastic shit fail? Let alone being able to call anything that looks like that much of a fucking brick a masterwork, I mean fucking seriously NOW THIS PICTURE, THIS IS A MASTERWORK.
2: As another historical note, the Colt Single Action Army (the gun that won the West, fyi), was in .45, because people back then knew what a chickenshit round 9mm was, and would never trust it when shooting those damn savages who kept trying to attack settlers. Also, the difference between P and +P isn't worth any additional accuracy or damage in the d20 system, maybe some more accuracy in gurps but d20 damage stages are too coarse.
3: I agree with you here, people being too squishy in d20 systems might also be a factor in this, but I still believe that reducing damage helps in this case.
4: Glocks are like fords, i didn't say guns are weak, just Glocks, like fords and kias
5: You seriously think it takes 5 hours to make a Glock? Try 2, they fail constantly.
Jace Gomez
It's not. It's a submachine gun, or more accurately as the manufacturer itself claims, it's a PDW, a personal defense weapon. Designed to be smaller than a rifle but capable of penetrating armor from a distance, unlike a pistol cartridge.
Nathaniel Davis
are you dense? the p90 is obviously a bullpup, it loads from the rear
Brandon Cruz
you load from the rear, its more of a machine pistol
Grayson Hernandez
None of this changes the length of the barrel, which is what is used to legally define a rifle. standard or bullpup configuration doesn't matter, a rifle barrel is a rifle barrel and the p90 is and is regulated as a long gun, making the 5.27 a rifle round
John Nguyen
At this point you've given yourself away. 4/10 I thought you were just wrong for a little while.
Jose Lewis
...
Matthew Carter
your confusing your guns m80, pic related is a machine pistol, the p90 is a bullpup rifle, the length of the integrated barrel meets the standards of a rifle.
Julian Sullivan
Barrel length legally defines whether or not something is an SBR in the states. it is a determining factor, but isn't the end all be all, you could have a 30 inch barrel on a 9x19mm rifle and if you have it select fire capability it'd automatically become a submachine gun. Just like the original villar perosi SMG. The barrel length of the P90 is ~20 inches sure, but the overall length is under the ATF definition of minimum legal length which is why the PS90 has an extended barrel. Caliber and select fire capability is more important than barrel length. FN itself refers to the weapon as a PDW, because it's not a rifle and not really an SMG, it's a seperate class of weapon in it's own category.
Josiah Cooper
A factory glock isn't going to be masterwork. A "masterwork" will be one that has been tuned to personal tastes using aftermarket parts. Same applies with most firearms. Its a +1 to hit.
Austin King
You strictly don't know what you're talking about. PDW is a marketing term.
>The P90 is currently in service with military and police forces in over 40 nations, such as Austria, Brazil, Canada, France, Greece, India, Malaysia, Poland, and the United States.[13] In the United States, the P90 is in use with over 200 law enforcement agencies, including the U.S. Secret Service.[14] While developed and initially marketed as a PDW, it can also be considered a submachine gun or compact assault rifle.[12] The standard selective fire P90 is restricted to military and law enforcement customers, but since 2005, a semi-automatic version has been offered to civilian shooters as the PS90.[15]
Henry Cook
>posts semi-automatic pistol for the extra subtle bait
As for armorer, i misunderstood what you meant by smithing. I thought you meant learning the functions and gunsmithing aspect, not building the whole thing from raw material. Though I can only speculate that Glock factories work very quickly given how much product they ship, but actual time =/= man hours once you get into machine hour time (ie., a machine may do ____ in 1 hour, which is equivalent to 10 man-hours of labor).
Frankly, mastercraft is relative. A glock 19 from the 90s is pretty superior in terms of metallurgy, capacity, ease of maintenance, and reliability to any cap-and-ball revolver, purely due to the century+ difference in engineering.
Put another way, Iron weapons in a Bronze Age setting may be "mastercraft", but iron weapons in a Dark Age setting wouldnt be. Bronze spears in a copper-era setting would be "mastercraft", but in a bronze era they wouldnt be. Browning-action polymer pistols with modern metallurgy and weather coatings may be "mastercraft" compared to early 20th century offerings, but by todays saturated market standards they may not be.
See what I'm saying? It's relative. Either go by the book, which clearly reflects the gun market of the 90s-early 2000s, or go by todays (where yesterdays Mastercraft is todays acceptable)
Lincoln Flores
Again, that's marketing, the p90 is a rifle based on barrel length, carbine based on length of gas system. They wanna market that as a SMG fine, but it's a rifle and regulated as such. As the 5.7 was developed for this RIFLE before the pistol was created, the 5.7 is strictly a rifle round. I guess SMGs in .223 aren't rifles either.
Gavin Bennett
a .223 carbine sure as fuck is a rifle. But *barrel length alone doesnt determine rifle status* caliber is an important determining factor. The P90 was never designed to be used as a rifle and 5.7 was never made to be a rifle cartridge, because if so, it's really shitty at it's role.
Gavin Young
Oh, and the P90 doesn't have a gas system, it's a blowback action. So you're wrong on both accounts.
are you sure lugers don't do automatic action friend?
Jonathan Peterson
I mean, that's airsoft, but if I recall there are a few machine pistol Artillery Lugers but it's not a common thing for the model.
Kayden Nelson
>gun control legislation determines nomenclature >t. believes "assault weapons" exist
Christopher Taylor
>airsoft
Oh, you're too good at this.
Dominic Hill
>designed for use in rifled barrels >isn't a rifle cartridge
Julian Moore
that's correct. Pretty much 100% of cased pistol rounds are designed for rifled barrels and are not a rifle cartridge.
Justin Clark
Now you're just lying.
Thomas Flores
I agree that masterwork is relative, but the rules make it binary, so I have to treat it as such. This is where stuff like GURPS tl comes in handy, but we have to deal with the current year in firearms and glock doesn't deserve masterwork or even the base damage
Matthew Peterson
Exceptional. Take note, people, if you want to bait effectively, go to someone else's board with something other than /pol/ garbage.
/k/ would realize pretty quickly that nobody could really be this consistently and frustratingly wrong on so many aspects of the subject at once, but the Veeky Forums posters with any knowledge on the matter aren't inoculated to bullshit with this specific focus.
Noah Cox
Best troll thread I've seen on Veeky Forums in weeks. Thanks, OP.
Luke Morris
/k/ will realize it's bait and bite down anyway, there's a reason we're the easiest board to bait.
Dominic Collins
>high tech weapons >a DP and Vickers
Samuel Adams
Pretty much. Sometimes you want to give someone the benefit of the doubt and assume they're just fucking wrong. Because guns are swarmed in so much mythology actual information can be hard to come by.
Jonathan Wilson
To be fair, it is GURPS, so "high tech" is relative. A Vickers gun in a medieval setting would be pretty high tech.
