Horus Heresy General /hhg/

if they did that I'd totally get some, and I really don't like breachers.

Shape ways has a handful of that fit the plastic mkiii. I've considered getting a set for my remaining squad

Which primarchs would have been/would be the coolest if they'd fought for the side other than the one that they did?

A loyalist Angron would have been Kurze without the bullshit. (Or grimdark Punisher versus grimdark Batman).
But who would have been the coolest loyalist-turned-traitor?

until they do I'll just keep getting perfectly cast breacher kits from china

But what if... I were to purchase Chinese recasts and disguise it as Forge World?

Fall Sanguinius would be cool.

Fallen*

For a second there I read that as Fat Sanguinius.

Vulkan could have had a big impact as a traitor (and yes, I'm aware he wouldn't be a perpetual in that case). The dude had a load of batshit doomsday devices he'd built stored on Nocturne, which he mostly destroyed before going to Isstvan as they were just too dangerous to leave lying around. Those weapons in the hands of the traitors could be quite something.

I kinda feel that loyalist Angron would be a barbarian king rather than Kurze without the bullshit, like he'd focus on destroying empires and tyrants but be fairly egalitarian about it

I think maybe the coolest loyalist-turned-traitor might be Russ. Like everything about his Legion and their culture just screams Khornate berserkers, and then looking back everybody would be going "oh yeah, really heavily foreshadowed"

Strange, I thought Vulkan too. It's always the nice/quiet ones. Though if we're talking about who's most logical to go to Chaos, Russ is the obvious candidate (being an amoral cunt whose marines are savage brutes), and Ferrus' autism has hints of Perty's bitterness rather than the crisp cool refreshing autism of Dorn.

But are you saying Vulkan wouldn't be perpetual if he fought for Chaos? Is this new fluff? (I haven't read past Vulkan lives and I doubt I'll get around to finishing it chronologically).
Because as I understand it, Chaos de-facto lets its strongest and most valued servants become immortal, or at least won't let them exist in the physical universe long enough to get killed and prevents them from aging (if we accept fully functional pure gene seed 30,000 AD marines can age).

probably the least likely to go rogue, but a renegade Guilliman would be interesting. He probably wouldn't want some dark, unholy war but it probably would involve wanting to secede from the increasingly oppressive empire created by the Emperor.

Wanting a more egalitarian society would probably attract the 'nicer' primarchs too which would create a stronger bond between them, rather than the tenuous hold Horus had on his group.

Tzeentchian Guilliman. Imagine the planification-obsessive primarch boosted with some divination powers going full JUST AS PLANNED about litteraly every fucking thing he does. Imagine the level of madness he would ultimately endure.

>probably the least likely to go rogue
BRUH

BRUH

This. Dorn would have executed every one of his legionaries and committed seppuku if the Emperor demanded it. Rob wasn’t fanatical in his loyalty.

oh I just meant that Guilliman/Sanguinius/Dorn are the Emperor's trifecta of good two shoe sons.

but an extremely brutal war between the wall builders and the society builders? That would be an interesting alternate history.

goodie two shoes, fucking typos wtf

Wasn't it the plot of the alternative Dornian Heresy a bunch of guys made up a long time ago ? It featured some kind of Imperium Secundus before BL made it a real thing, with the UM going renegades and Ultramar becoming an independent kingdom. Their objective in 40k was to gather enough strength and launch a crusade to take Terra, disband the Senatus Imperialis and make the Imperium a more human place after 10.000 years of grimdrakness. At the time they basically had said "fuck you" to the Mechanicus and the ban of new/xenos tech, using some mix of Astartes/Tau wargear with jetpacks, pulse weapons and other forbiden toys.

>Like everything about his Legion and their culture just screams Khornate berserkers
Except the part where they're supposed to fight smart using measured tactics, teamwork, and maneuver to degrade their enemy to the point that they can be overcome in a single concentrated strike.

Then again, when's the last time that actually made it into the writing? VI v. Angron?

Guilliman also got stasised by Alpharius and sent back to Terra as a trophy IIRC.

My son, why did you kill half your legionaries?
>1
It's a secret.
>3
They were ugly and/or hetero.
>4
I thought killing 50% of my guys would make the remaining guys 50% better.
>5
The shamans told us seatbelts are against the Imperial Truth.
>6
We held a dare competition to see who could hold their breath the longest in the sea on the world whose water makes you deaf and blind.
>7
Stipulation 42,111 section 7 of the Imperial Truth could have been interpreted as demanding it, or else giving each marine a free ice cream cone. I chose the most severe one so as not to reward ourselves unduly.
>8
*autistic screeching*
>9
I had a stressful day and all my marines spazzed out and killed each other.
>10
We don't do backwards compatibility.
>12
NAILS IN MY BRAIN
>13
It was tactically necessary. Oh by the way the 500 worlds are now 5000.
>14
I hate supernatural evil and unnatural mutation so much I made a deal with the devil and the cost was turning them all into piles of goo on the floor.
>15
IT WAS AN ACCIDENT I SWEAR
>16
I was led to believe that you were a power-hungry psychic monstrosity looking to take over the galaxy, so I decided to throw my lot in with four power-hungry psychic monstrosities to become what you are.
>17
Pls notice me senpai
>18
I missed their text messages and they killed themselves because they thought I was dead
>19
this is the brice of freedums :DD
>20
*recruits twice their number while you weren't looking*

Guilliman was actually one of the least loyal primarchs to the Emperor himself. He served him because he saw his project as something that would make the galaxy a better place for most of mankind and because the Emperor had the power to fulfill his dreams of unity. He had no reason to rebel because Big E basically let him conquer and build the way he wanted, even gving him sovereignty over his own vassal empire. It is pretty clear in the lore that Guilliman has no particular love for his creator - it is pointed out several times that he still considers Konor as his true father - but recognizes him as the only guy who can make the Imperium a reality.

Maybe I over did it, but they do massively hate psykers and take precautions to deaden them (like iron collars), have a very strong warrior/barbarian culture, believe in might makes right, even occasionally take skulls

Kurze is just Evil Corax

I figure Angron could have turned out like Dorn, Fulgrim like Sanguinius, Horus like Guilliman, Perturabo like Ferrus, Mortarion like Vulkan, Alpharius like Russ, but the rest are less clear

and it's not like those are 1:1 anyway

Magnus minus the sorcery bullshit but still with the fearsome psychic power would have made a kind of interesting Quasimodo-figure, all tragic and disfigured and mutant, but still willing to do the right thing for love/duty/obsession, even if people were literally laughing in his face about it

El'Jonson would have made a fine loyalist

You're right except he was actually backstabbed by loyalist Fulgrim when leading negociations with the Imperium so they could put their enmity aside and unite in order to destroy the Traitor Legions once and for all.

Nah he is just a Space Yiff fan they definitely had the potential to swap places with the World Eaters or the War Hounds before Angron took over dont those names sound kinda similiar ??

Guilliman definitely wasn't the Emperor's goody two shoes, even though of all the primarchs save perhaps Vulkan (who didn't have good media management) COS HE'S BLACK he was the most "paragon" of them. He's probably the most "human" of the primarchs. He has most of the talents of the other primarchs and is the jack of all trades as a result.
>not as talented as Horus
>not as humanitarian as Vulkan
>not as stubborn as Dorn
>not as heroic as Sanguinius
>not as idealistic as Corax or Kurze
>not as charismatic as Lorgar
>not as ruthless as Perty
>not as much of a control freak as the Lion
>not as innovative as Alpharius
>not as intellectual as Magnus
>not as cynical as Russ
>not as perfectionist as Fulgrim
>not as bloodthirsty as Angron
(Free space: Khan and Morty)

probably the best part is in Inferno, where it's said that the Rout prior to Russ was considered to be the crazy berserkers to the considered fury of the War Hounds

>Alpharius like Russ
How do you figure this?
If anything I got the impression Alpharius was a bit like Perty in that he internally regretted not being able to be anything but a war machine, a war machine in this case whose utility rested on being a myth, a legend and a lie.
Omegon came across as the arsehole, who was like a stupider Curze or a less pure Angron.

Does Morty even have a redeeming quality?

Exactly The Space Yiffs just got lucky their primarch did not have a giant nail in his head that made him perpetually angry

Traitor Sanguinius falls to Khorne on Signus. He murders Horus and takes his place as Warmaster of Chaos, the Red Angel.

Curze and Corax are pretty opposite. Corax is about fighting authority whereas Curze established authority.

The red angel is already angron's nickname.

It's also a possessed BAngle

What’s a good way to run Jetbikes, friends?

I have an open Fast Attack slot that isn’t filled by Seekers or a Xiphon and I was thinking of running jetbikes.

Is a 5 man squad of Imperial Fists on Jetbikes with a Plasma Cannon and a single Powerfist a typically good idea?

As far as I can tell he has several different qualities that all the other primarchs do better
>bitterness:
Perty is suing him for trademark infringement
>stubbornness:
Dorn won't acknowledge his misuse of Imperial Fist™ trademarks, it's widespread knowledge that DG's combat style is a ripoff, loses the legion much prestige. SAD
>technology:
Ferrus laughs and Vulkan cringes because finding the most warcrimey chemicals you can and throwing them at the enemy from five feet away isn't technological skill.
>Faustian resolution of daddy issues:
Lorgar is in the top 5 of most knowledgeable beings ever to exist, while Morty still thinks 10,000 years after having sold his soul to demons he is performing science. Meanwhile the Emperor actually gave cause to Lorgar to rebel, while all the reason Morty had was the Emperor "killstealing" him in order to save his life, and handling the Magnus/psyker situation with nuance. The other guy, Angron, had an actual reason to be angry at the Emperor, one that makes him come across as a tragic hero/antihero/villain, rather than an envious jerk.

What's the rest of your list like?
IF isn't typically associated with stuff that can't touch the ground, let alone sit within a trench.

That’s what I was thinking. I just think jetbikes are super cool and was thinking about adding some in.

My lists are usually pretty gun line with a few units being mobile or prodding to break holes in lines.

Eh, the thing with defensive lists is that aggro units are either going to suffer from hunkering down or coming in to a disadvantageous situation to make up for what could have been in the trenches at the start, or else they come in like historical cavalry to mop up an enemy that's already broken.
Have them designed to take out something specific, otherwise "all-rounder" units from specialist roles suffer outside of super-specialised lists. It's a shame really.

Wall called Dorn.

Nah, I'm just being sour grapes about how the fluff rarely to never actually portrays the SW as operating in the way fluff states they operate.

He never earned it.

Explain this post/joke?

It honestly sounds like I really should just run another Xiphon or take a pair of Medusas.

Damn shame.

I'm guessing that Alpharius is compared to Russ because of their very esoteric purpose, whatever that actually is on Alpharius' part. Russ and his Legion were the Emperor's personal executioners, and I think a recent book suggested that Alpharius and his legion were the Emperor's personal CIA.

Corax established the totalitarian authority of the Imperium in the name of liberty (from petty DAoT tyrants, mutants, and xenos), while Curze deconstructed the whole idea of authority in the name of small-c chaos by exercising his power over people with no holds barred.

Would Dorn think a knock knock joke is an attempt to sunder his fortifications?
Can't have too many

>What’s a good way to run Jetbikes, friends?
Molecular Acid shells.

Oh, wait, pauper baby legions don't have any of those in stock.

I see.
In personality I didn't really get any of that parallel between Russ and Alpharius as individuals, even though I see the purposes functioning similarly. Angron and Corax might well have been repurposed with some slight modifications of mission paramters if those two ever failed.
As an individual I got the impression that Omegon was a violent type, prime Chaos recruitment material, more similar to Russ than Alpharius at least. But in practical terms I can't say.

>knock knock
>*no response because 27 security cameras have captured your image and every guard on every tower can see who's at the gate*

Great King Emp-rar was betrayed by his son, the Horse.

King Emprah, a powerful magician, of the village named Terra made himself God. Betrayed by his son, Horse. Loyal sons defend their father. One of his sons was a wall. King Emprah's concubines gave birth to a great wall to protect him. Wall called Dorn.

Molecular acid wouldn't even scratch the paint on an Imperial Fist fortress.

Ah, I remember that.
I was just wondering what the context of posting it then/now/ITT was.

Did the White Scars have access to Tartaros Pattern Terminator Armor?

Well, if you're trying to work out the personality of the Twin Primarchs, it might interest you to know that GW had a Primarch/Legion personality quiz once. The Alpha Legion, naturally, had two possible outcomes that were almost exactly the same except for a few small details, including how the description ended. One description ended with "you are absolutely loyal to your Legion." The second one ended with "you are absolutely loyal to humanity." Neither of those descriptions suggested overall fealty to the Emperor or the Imperium. The inference I got from the book I mentioned could be broadly summarized as "the Alpha Legion was created to spread and root out weaknesses on a galactic scale." Kind of like how vaccinations are ultimately inert viruses that strengthen you overall, if that makes sense.

Make of this what you will.

The Thousand Sons’ red/white/black/gold is by far the best aesthetic. Other legions can’t compete.

Twin Xiphon here I come.

Titans are immune to haywire

Can a forge-lord accompanied by servitors join a squad still? I feel like the occasional surprise rad-missile is a pretty excellent fuck you.

I'm guessing no, because the rules state the Techmarine (and by proxy, the Forge Lord) "forms a unit" with the Servitors. Essentially, the Forge Lord is already joining a unit of Servitors purchased for him.

it makes sense. They're secret legion killers. The VI are the blunt, visible enforcers.

Every legion had access to every pattern of armour except VII and debatably VI. Some just had more of one sort than others. White Scars would be wearing predominantly II, III, and Cataphractii.

>Molecular Acid

???

So Custodes Jetbike + PA marine actually look ok

>White Scars would be wearing predominantly II, III, and Cataphractii.

I don't want to get greedy with the recent boon of Alphy, Lernean, Scoria... but plastic MkII would be my final wish just so I can have a bunch of WS decked out in the Crusade armor,

Different angle

It's not that they're secret Legion killers. It ends up being "your purpose is to observe everything and weed out corruption or danger anywhere it can appear, and the best way to observe everything is to be everywhere."

The FW books make a great stink about the "Trefoil" Legions (Wolves, Salamanders, Alpha Legion) and their distinct functions/organization, as well as sheer differences in how the Emperor raised and utilized them. Book 3 in particular goes into great detail over three possibilities of the AL's unique upbringing and circumstances of their existence, noting they never officially broke the 1000 Marine intake at a time when each legion was well-accounted for, and nobody really knew the size of the Legion even by the Horus Heresy. How could such a small Legion possibly have such a massive, yet unknowable, sphere of gathering intelligence? Well, what do we know about the AL's members? That they, unique among all the other Legions, use a large portion of regular people as operatives to compliment their Marines, and are quite egalitarian in their treatment and usage of said people. They are combined to form a vast network of efficient information gathering. However, a cryptic statement catches my attention every time I read it: it is quite possible that the Emperor, nor Horus, or possibly even Alpharius himself really knew the extent of the XX's numbers and operations once they were unleashed into the galaxy. It goes on to suggest the Legion itself became too engrossed in the means, eschewing the ends that were their purpose in the first place. I should point out that the leader of the Redacted Warband knew full well what those ends were, he just didn't really care anymore. This is supported again in book 3, which mentions the Legion started doing what it did for their own titillation instead of any long-shunned purpose or outcome.

TL;DR the Alpha Legion's purpose became almost immediately irrelevant under the weight of their own shenanigans.

> irrelevant under the weight of their own shenanigans

I mean, you could argue that the point of so much contradictory shenanigans is to make a foreign infiltration impossible since there's such a tangled web of secrecy already in place and "monitored" by the NSAstartes.

I'm just thinking aloud, not arguing

Something I wanted to add but ran out of room: it seems obvious at first glance that they were more interested in testing themselves than others ("It would have been too easy"), which we have established was most likely their original function. However, this was somewhat abandoned when they started doing their black ops shit for themselves, but that just begs the question of why? I think the answer is simple: the twins disagreed on what outcome they should have been fighting for, but the sheer mindfuckery that was the XX made it hilariously incapable of settling these differences. So they just sorta agreed to disagree on that note, and did whatever they thought was right, making sure to never let the cracks in their unity show.

I could have sworn there was a source that contradicted Leman Russ. The emperor never meant for him to be an enforcer he just started acting like it cause that's what he thought the emperor wanted. And the emperor couldn't be bothered to correct the misunderstanding.

That is definitely what I think was the original intention for them too, but even that was forgotten under the immense, labyrinth weight of their modus operandi.

WHEN ARE MY BAD BOTZ BIO BOIZ GETTING RULES WHERE ARE MY SICK MALIFICA AND TECHNICAL SEXUALS

WHERE ARE DARK MECH

I just bought 3 real and I unopened Legion Medusas for $65 simply because I could not resist the deal.

How effective would you say a full a squad is? Worthwhile to give them all Extra Armor and the Squad Command Vehicle for 50 points for a total of 515?

I’d really like to use them often.

and what's worse is that because they're so united, each splinter believes fully that they're furthering the legion's true goals.

tfw the XX is truly so supreme they are playing themselves

>to intelligent

ssshhh i didn't make the meme

I know you didn't. But it perfectly shows what AL fags really are.

STUPID

Dark Angels get special Heavy Bolter ammo.

It makes Heavy Bolters into brutal murderers of anything with a Toughness value.

NO I'M DOESN'T

Who would win in a Marty Sue showdown:
Remus "Yeah, I kinda thought this would happen" Ventanus
Garviel "Yeah, I survived orbital bombardment, so what?" Loken
or
Nykona "Yeah, *teleports behind you, 360 degree noscopes you*" Sharrowkyn?

Ollanius Pius.

Didn't more than a few guys survived orbital bombardment? Like, that loyalist DG guy and Magos guy in HH book 1

Sharrowkyn because he got away with killing Lucius

>defeating the entire point of Ollanius Pius being some literally-who grunt facing down Horus regardless of how pitifully unmatched he is for your worldbuilding nonsense

It still hurts bros

I suspect the White Scars would have access to VII after they arrived on Terra following the events of the Path of Heaven

>Remus being Mary Sue

The fuck? He was just supremely lucky and skilled. Tons of people did NOT like him just for his great intuition alone.

Loken is a weird special snowflake but still neat.

Sharrowkyn? Yeah he's a sue.

I'm in the minority in that I am fine with most changed HH made, even perpetuals, but the pious change still leaves a bad taste and is the only real retcon I dislike.

post yfw Garviel Loken is the one that stands between the Emps and Horus, because he needs yet more closure for his mancrush over his primarch

The Weekender says that Aximand and Loken will fight.

Abaddon in the Pandorax novel said that he saw his former brother die (Loken?). So Loken won't make it to the final fight.