Question about nWoD Mage

WHERE MUH MAGE FAQ REEEEE

I wouldn't doubt you can make crude ephemera objects in their respective realms (just about anything can slap together some kind of object using some sort of tortured logic, pretty sure Fate can make a wooden spoon count as a silver weapon vs werewolves), but 2e isn't about superfluous conjunctional arcana.

>and that can be interacted with by them.

Anything there can interact with them. This isn't owod.

>Of course, the ST *should* let Matter work there -- none would doubt Fate or Prime would enhance objects there, and the verbiage of how Fate/Prime boost objects is the same as how Matter effects are stipulated.
I Agree. But a pedantic ST might quibble, claiming, "muh emphemera!"

That rote is something of an off example. In the rules it broadly takes Spirit-2 to pull off that kind of thing. Awakening magic requires the Practice of Making (5 dots) to create enduring manifestations of the Arcana, while lesser Practices can often generate temporary, limited Arcanum manifestations. In the case of the given example, it was a very trivial phenomena of limited capability, well defined by its impermanence.

Awakening's Spirit Arcanum explicitly does not affect ghosts or psychic projections, while the Death arcana is written as effecting ephemera, but might be referring to ghosts only.

>Spirit-2: Physically interact with spirits and spirit objects in Twilight.
>Spirit-2 + Death-2: To affect ghosts and ghostly objects.
>Spirit-2 + Mind-2: To affect bodiless psychic projections.
>Death-2: Physically interact with ghosts and the ghostly reflections of objects in Twilight. Pull ghostly objects out of Twilight.
>Death-2 + Spirit-1: Interact with spirits in Twilight.
>Death-2 + Mind-2: Interact with mental projections in Twilight.
>Death-3: Turn a destroyed object into an ephemeral object in Twilight (must destroy object first).
>Death-3: Sculpt and shape ephemera.
>Death-3: Destroy an ephemeral object with decay (inflicts aggravated damage).

I think it was prime + matter to effect hobgoblins. (I forgot) The Hedge foliage and hobgoblins had their own arcana combo.

>Spirit-2: Physically interact with spirits and spirit objects in Twilight.
I-Is this the answer--or an answer?

>But a pedantic ST might quibble, claiming, "muh emphemera!"

True.

This is why I am inclined to think Fate + Prime, Fate + Spirit, or Fate + Death are the GOAT arcana combos, simply because its Mage: The Arcana, Spirit: The Arcanum, and Geist/Vampire Crossover Chronicle: The Arcanum, respectively.

Many STs really fuckin hate using magic antagonists, so I would say that if you don't expect mages or other PC types, Fate + Spirit is the safest bet for doing basically everything ever.

>666
If a player character was in the Hisil, not knowing where they were, and attacking one of its local residents, not knowing what it was, then they decided on unloading a gun on it while using their magic on the #dirt beneath them with an upholstered foci with their other hand in order to trip up the monster. Then by the game's own rules, their magic should not work. (Inb4 Chronicler's Guide) And so now they learn something very important about this eldritch location. Or perhaps their magic will botch up in some other way at the ST's discretion. Who knows how their game would go down.

>I think it was prime + matter to effect hobgoblins.

Clearly, this is Arcadia's revenge against the Acanthus for seeming to have something to do with it, but not really.

Also next time I run mage, I want to piss off closeted Changeling fans by having lots of fae involved... Supernal fae from Mage-Arcadia that, for some fucking reason, have no relationship at all.

Not to the OP question. In Twilight means they spirit/ghost/etc is in the material world and just not manifest. Not quite the same thing as "does matter work on ephemera when the mage is in the Shadow/Astral/Underworld"

>that, for some fucking reason, have no relationship at all.
It's explained in MtA - Imperial Mysteries.

Also, if you do any Changling stuff, I really do recommend Equinox Road, Autumn Nightmares, and Goblin Markets, along with the actual CtL core book and its Errata. (Might want Rites of Spring too.)

The two Arcadias are no longer related in any way as of 2e.

A good quarter of Imperial Mysteries has been scrapped.

Since Mage, Beast, and Hunter all use one dream world and Changelings arbitrarily use a different one, for anything crossovery I'm tempted to just use Supernal fae.

>using beest
>using crossover

>in any way as of 2e.
>2e
I'm having a good chuckle now.

Either convert or be left behind.

Awakened magic works by drawing down the natural laws of the Supernal Realms and imposing them upon the Phenomenal World, but such magic does require that a given Arcanum's purview be represented. Put another way, an environment completely devoid of matter, if such a thing were possible, would render the Matter Arcanum nearly useless not because it wouldn't work, but because there would be nothing for it to work on.

>He called me out on the 2e books I was hiding!

>Fate + Prime
>Mage: The Arcana

Could you elaborate?

Prime is Mage: The Arcanum (ie. stuff directly tied to opposing other mages)

Fate is Everything: The Arcanum

Spirit is Everything But People: The Arcanum (as well as a nasty and extremely numerous kind of NPC)

Death is Crossover: The Arcanum (or at least, vampires, sometimes prometheans, mummies, geists, cthonians, zombies, and more)

Obviously something like Forces or Mind is also crazily broad (covering, basically, all forms of violence and nearly every ally and enemy in the universe), although the same logic that makes Matter not work in the Shadow could be used to limit those as well.

Yes, but what makes Fate + Prime so "GOAT", exactly? Prime on its own is rather stale.

Because Fate does everything, and Prime is perfect for opposing other mages (and its a one stop shop for so doing), kinda giving you a half assed shot at defense against mages, and stripping away spell effects as you obliterate your enemies. And most importantly, gives you a real shot at hiding your spells from other mages.

I ONLY endorse Prime in a chronicle where mages are going to be a major threat. In almost any other situation, you can get by with Fate and Spirit.

>Prime on its own is rather stale.
Ascension's Prime 2 can enchant weapons to inflict aggravated damage.

Prime is practically mandatory in Ascension.

We arnt talking about ascension so fuck off.

No matter wont work on ephemeral objects.

Ignore this retard as Matters purview doesnt contain "objects", spells just refer to them because how else would you.

You might be able to use matter to "craft" ephermera since thats part of matters purview.

Allowing matter to work on ephemeral would allow you to basically control spirits which are made from it without needing to use any spirit.

This thread is clearly a mage containment effort.

>No matter wont work on ephemeral objects.

Proof other than your feelings?

>Ignore this retard as Matters purview doesnt contain "objects"

Tally up the list of Matter spells that state objects (nearly all of them).

Now tally up the list of Matter spells that stipulate "material objects" or "non ephemeral objects."

>Allowing matter to work on ephemeral would allow you to basically control spirits which are made from it without needing to use any spirit.

That's retarded. "Object" is a pretty clearly defined term, they have their own rules and everything. Spirits are not objects, but some objects contain spirits.

The reverse of your statement is, however, true: spirit lets you do essentially everything.

Tally up all the spells that use the mage instead of subject for targeting.

Do you think those spells can only be cast on the mage and not any subject?

The fact matter says objects is to stop retards like you infering that without it you can use matter on people because it didnt say.

Read the purviews.
All the proof you need is there.

Hello, I'm a bystander. Calm the fuck down you faggot.

Sounds like a tortured strawman.

To put it another way, you can shoot a spirit -- to death. With a gun you buy in a store.

You can even use matter to enhance or create a gun, then enter the spirit world, and shoot a spirit to death.

Literally every other "use a power to create an object" spell in the game works fine in the Shadow (its not a virtual reality), but because of your houseruled nerf to what is already the weakest and most redundant arcanum, you think mages should be the only people who can't interact with inanimate objects in the Shadow?

I don't mind the idea of mages suck, but its an arcanum that is basically of no relevance to begin with.

>weakest and most redundant arcanum
Wat. Just... wat.

Using matter making in the shadow is fine. You are creating matter from nothing in the material world or the shadow, its the same.

How is using matter to enhance an item then using that item in the shadowlands relevant to what you can use matter on in the shadowlands?

There is a reason a moros is out of his depths in the shadowland, matter not reigning supreme is one of them.

Thinking matter is weak already shows you to be the retard you are. Kindly shut up.

Yet ya got no argument. There's a reason why it is the absolute last to be bothered with, not least because other arcana literally do the job better than it does for its own purview.

It's funny how a thyrsus is completely hosed in the underworld but a moros is still capable of shit in the Hisil because even spirits die.

>To put it another way, you can shoot a spirit -- to death. With a gun you buy in a store.
>You can even use matter to enhance or create a gun, then enter the spirit world, and shoot a spirit to death.
>Literally every other "use a power to create an object" spell in the game works fine in the Shadow
I'm convinced.

Why would a thyrsus be hosed in the underworld? He's living, sin eaters are living, he can still boost himself and his friends just fine, and his spirit friends can find an unbelievably rich feast of resonance, free of any rival spirits.

You missed out the part where he cant do anything to those ghost things with life or spirit...

Yeah, the mage is forced to the level of a Thyrsus in an empty field. Just being able to enhance himself and his friends, and of course,
create an unlimited army of friends; with conjunctional life/spirit to make clones with the powers of a rank 2 spirit (if he needs them to have human bodies for some reason; don't see why), easily enhanced to rank 3 (which is, itself, pretty insano in terms of dice pool, stats of around TEN), no sleepers to fizzle his spells, few to no rival mages to fuck his day;

And lets not forget, here's a guy who can also use a reach with Spirit 4 to enter spirit-Twilight even if there is no spirit-Twilight in the underworld, and there will be very, very few things that can actually affect him. Not many beings will even have bothered to figure out a way to affect spirits, in the last place spirits would ever go.

And this is where a meh kind of mage, is at his mehiest: still insanely good.

There are, indeed, spirits that can eat ghosts, enslave ghosts, or have influence over ghosts.

Yes all Thyrsus have Life 5 & Spirit 5

Your average mage has x arcanum 4 which is enough to have a gigantic orgy of familiars and fetishes.

Fuck sake. Its a fact a Thrysus is at a disadvantage in the underworld compared to a Moros. Its also a fact that a Moros is at a disadvantage in the shadowlands over a Thrysus.

This doesnt make either weak as fuck, we get it.

Not comparable at all, its a one way disadvantage.

In the underworld, spirit is still spirit, and life is still life. He is slightly limited, but the benefits and drawbacks are about equal.

In the shadow, the reverse is not true; objects are houseruled by autists to no longer be objects because ????

Its just he's limited to what he brings with him, such as a hundred or so bolstered (rank 3) spirit familiars, another hundred fetishes, and probably a few high rank spirits.

What state is ephermeral objects? Sold, liquid or gas? These are the purview of matter. Objects are not part of Matters purview.

>hundred or so bolstered (rank 3) spirit familiars, another hundred fetishes
Don't want to interrupt on your power fantasies, but spell control is a thing, buddy. You'd better have several hundred Willpower dots to safely relinquish all this shit, or have a tiny fraction of that. Also, such a army of spirits would require a shitton of Essense. Good luck getting that.

>What state is ephermeral objects? Sold, liquid or gas?

Whatever they would be normally... obviously. You are mixing up the difficulties of interacting with twilight vs solid objects (which, indeed, matter alone can't breach), and the difficulties of getting from the mortal realm to the shadow (which, again, matter alone can't breach).

The Fate of a spirit or an ephemeral object is governed by Fate.
The Death of a spirit or etc. is governed by Death (hey look something to do, too bad Death barely has anything)
The Life of a living being in the spirit realm is still... governed by Life.
The Forces in the spirit realm is still... governed by Forces.
The Mind of a spirit is still... governed by Mind.

You're more thinking of a Lower Depth that lacks Matter.

>These are the purview of matter.

In your kickin' homebrew I guess?

>Objects are not part of Matters purview.

Of course they are. Matter is an insanely limited, narrow arcanum: objects made of lifeless matter (only), and not being able to interface with its magical properties. Even so, Fate can duplicate most elements of Matter you'd need, just by having it fall onto your lap instead of conjuring it. Whoop de doo. Presumably, die adders involving objects can work under Matter, even though by default its a Fate thing.

Its a crap Arcanum, made crappier that the houserule that "objects of the Fallen world" mean "objects of only one corner of the Fallen World."

>Totally my homebrew.

Admit it user you have not even looked at the book.

>Don't want to interrupt on your power fantasies, but spell control is a thing, buddy.

Don't want to interrupt your condescension but spell factors are a thing, buddy.

>Also, such a army of spirits would require a shitton of Essense.

Essence is -completely- free at level 5 and unlikely to be a problem so long as they are kept in an appropriate manfiestation condition. Just make sure there's a situation of the appropriate resonance every day -- presumably you're going to bring spirits apropos for where you're going.

Ephermera is in a ephermeral state which manifests as "twilight" when brought into the material world.

It might look like a solid, liquid or gas in the shadowlands but it isnt exactly.

>multiple spirit familiars
>doesnt know how spell stacking works

mong.

As mentioned, solids are still solids in either situation, and there are a few more words in said list than you covered.

Not to mention the next paragraph, and refers to all the matter of the Fallen World, not "all the matter of the Fallen World except the Hisil for some odd reason."

If you have a problem with it and desire houserules so much, why not houserule it so that... there aren't "objects" in the Shadow at all, you need to make them a fetish or whatever to bring them over, etc. etc.?

There are objects in the shadow you autist they just arnt solid, liquid or gas so matte catch touch them.

Jesus.

>matter cant touch them

You are so hung up over spells using the term object as a targeting parameter its quite funny.

They are most certainly solid, liquid, or gas... just in the shadow. I'm not sure where this retarded meme that the Hisil is a Lower Depth of Matter, but its weird that its the *only* otherworld that people think works this way.

I suppose matter cant target air as its not a object.

Shit.

They are ephermeral, which is neither solid, liquid or gas. Hence why it doesnt interact with anything while its in the material world.

Mage is so broken. Sure, it requires you to actually sit down and think about how to break it. At first glance, it just seems moderately powerful, but as soon as someone with a devious mind, a command of how the Storyteller System works, and a good amount of practical knowledge sets themselves to breaking the game, the game breaks in a spectacular fashion.

There's also the argument that the actual tone of the game setting itself could mean any phenomenal cosmic power you wield is utterly meaningless in the face of a horrible nega-universe devouring everything and false gods who hate you on a personal level sitting in the thrones of heaven controlling everything, but that doesn't negate the fact that Crazy Steve just blew up Cleveland! But any Storyteller worth a fuck would immediately have the Abyss explode in from how vulgar the spell is, just have the whole of unrealty spill out over where the spell is cast, with all sorts of horrible abominations hungry for a meal of mage.

Tho' you can't punish a player for commanding legions of zombies, spiritual hordes, giving people aneurysms with a thought, or becoming The Incredible Hulk. That's what magic is for.

>but spell factors are a thing, buddy
Sure they are, but they alone aren't going to get for an army of spirits. You need a hundred hybernated spirits to make a hundred fetishes, and your Potency on them is going to be shit. Same with familiar, only spirit have to be willing for this spell to work, and can end the deal at any moment - and he will do it the moment you'll start treat him as a slave.

>Essence is -completely- free at level 5
Yes, because every Thyrsus is a Spirit Master.

>unlikely to be a problem so long as they are kept in an appropriate manfiestation condition
You do understand that spirits are active, sentient beings with their own will? They aren't going to be "kept" in an appropriate manifestation condition. Unless you bind them all, of course, which will do wonders for your Wisdom and make you an enemy for everything in local Shadow and all local Spirit mages too.

broken compared to what user?

because if all things are broken (ie all mages) then its balanced.

In this moment I have attained a measure of genuine insight. Thank you for sharing this pearl of wisdom. :O

Everything is broken in white room. In practice, there are always those pesky things called "unforeseen consequences", "unwanted attention" and "hubris". Mages are crazy powerful compared to mundane things, but those are most specifically aren't subject of game.

If all bicycles have a flat tire then everybody walks.

The almonds are blessed.

wtf has this got to do with anything?

The Truth about Demon the Descent

Everybody always forget that Mages are in similiar situation. There are tons of mage enemies: Seers, Banishers, Tremere, Scelesti, rival mages, mundane hunters, agressive spirits/ghosts/Goetia, etc. Every fuckup who think magic is excuse to do whatever he wants will quickly find himself alone against ton of other enemies with magic. And even if he grows so strong that he can defeat most of his enemies and not to lose support (like, multi-Master Hierarch), he gain personal attention of magical god-tyrants, who will cut him down a bit. This is a World of Darkness, not World of Power Fantasy.

>This is a World of Darkness, not World of Power Fantasy.

Seers want to live out on the World of Power Fantasy. Really, despite the Silver Ladder's rhetoric, the Seers have them beat on demonstrable success with Ascension, as some Ministers and Tetrarchs *do* Ascend. The nature of the Seers, though, is a literal pyramid scheme -- for every Minister who becomes a junior Exarch and leaves a crystal skeleton behind, there's tens of thousands of Seers who'll never make it, but the Seer religion and hagiography of Exarchs are all designed to offer that hope, that by ruling faithfully on Earth they'll be allowed to serve in Heaven.

Many other Seers are just in it for the hookers and blow. If you can avoid the malfeasence of your superiors, the jealousy of your peers and the dead-man's-pointy-shoes jockeying of your subordinates, life as a Seer is a lot more comfortable than in another Order, both materially and magically -- the Mysterium may have them beat on sheer quantity of stuff owned, but it's all locked away in Aethenea. The Seers have more accessible toys, from Artifacts to Grimoires.

Some don't think they'll personally Ascend but are true believers in the Exarchs anyway -- from a desire to be on the winning team, to believing that the Supernal creates the Fallen, to simple fear. Some joined the Order with their eyes open, others were picked up after Awakening and got too deep to back out before they had the big picture.

The Seers have a hard dividing line between those who are in it for side benefits (including staying alive) and those who are wholeheartedly in the Exarch's service; whether or not the character is a Prelate. The upper echelons are almost all Prelates.

Even then, an entirely materialistic mage could find himself rising up the ranks of some Ministries, if he finds a suitable Exarch. Like Mammon and the Chancellor, for instance.

Life wouldn't work. When you enter one of the ephemeral realms you become the associated type of ephemera.

Mage is too strong

And you are to stupid to run mage.

Uhm. No. Entering the spirit realm doesn't turn you into spirit. This is true with maybe twilight. Going to the underworld also doesn't make you dead. Hell if you bodily enter the astral it doesn't even make you an astral entity.

Anything that enters an ephemeral realm become ephemera. Your equipment and your body.

...

forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/1002551-mind-vs-ghosts-and-spirits?p=1006658#post1006658
>In the Shadow and Underworld, everything's made of ephemera so you need Death or Spirit to reshape "material" things. The Astral, however, explicitly works on a "if it looks like x arcanum, use x arcanum for it" basis.
Word of Dave.

based dave

Wheres that faggot objectanon now....

Eat shit. Had the stupidest head canon i've ever fucking heard off.

I'm not objectanon, but you can kindly have that meal without him.

except word of dave says othewise. You need death to reshape underworld items instead of matter.

1e source is irelevant user. i bet you post 3.5 rules when your in your basement playing 5e too.

>thinks the underworld is the shadowland.

asshat.

Matter works the same in the sense that if you bought a sword, took it into the underworld then you can still use matter on it as normal.
If however you find a sword in the underworld. Then matter wont work on it and you would need death.

"In the Shadow and Underworld, everything's made of ephemera so you need Death or Spirit to reshape "material" things. The Astral, however, explicitly works on a "if it looks like x arcanum, use x arcanum for it" basis."

Book says Matter works fine in Underworld.

I didn't say shit about the shadowland you fucking theatre projector! You dumb mother fucker.

>1e source is irelevant user. i bet you post 3.5 rules when your in your basement playing 5e too.
2e texts refernce The Book of the Dead as the official source for the Underworld.

This entire thread is about discussing matter vs spirits & the shadowland you fucking shitbird.

OP asks moros in the shadow realm.

It works fine on anything not from the underworld or shadowlands while in those realms. Correct.

But it doesnt work on ephermeral things. What part dont you understand...

That's fair.

And so if you brought back a sword you found in Underworld to Earth... it'd be a... my brain is following the thread... i-it'd be a... ghost sword, yes? Yes?? And it would reside in Twilight?

Yes it would be in twilight

If what you say was true then the fact Life also works as normal on the mage himself means that it must also work as normal on ghosts...oh wait thats not how it works you fucking shit eater..

Holy shit calm the fuck down

>This entire thread is about discussing matter vs. spirits & the shadowland you fucking shitbird.
Then you need your eyes checked. Someone else had brought up the fucking Underworld as a point of contention, and I disagreed with them.

>If what you say was true then the fact Life also works as normal on the mage himself means that it must also work as normal on ghosts...oh wait thats not how it works you fucking shit eater.

WRONG!! The beings in the Underworld, for the most part, are not alive and cannot be affected by this Arcanum. Mages can use Life spells on themselves or other living travelers, but Life cannot be used to affect the environment.

You scatalogically obsessed fuck, you didn't even read the rules I sent you!

But life works as normal right?