Exalted General - /exg/

you forgot the masterminds in charge of the marysue jewel of a civilization that is halta, surely the guys who "soft touch" their civilization into a narnia-esque utopia (that should be seen by players as worlds worse than the guild for the scale on which they feed people to elves but get a pass because they're clearly the good guys, and despite all their absurd advantages somehow can't finish off some shit-tier tribals) must be sane?

Rakshi was, in 2E at least, the one who came up with the idea of fixing Castes with moonsilver tattoo. She was the greatest sorceress and arcane scholar among Lunars. There were quite a few other reasons for needing her than numbers. I don't remember how big a part Wyld taint played in her insanity, but one big part of her problem was that she was absolutely obsessed with learning Solar Circle Sorcery and spent most of her time and effort on futile attempts to reach this goal.

All of this talk of Lunar elders begs the question: what was an organization of three hundred celestial exalted or so doing during the Shogunate and Age of Sorrows, a period of two thousand years?

2e tried to retroactively add them to the narrative, like the Thousand-Streams Rivers and such, but it doesn't change the fact that they're the third wheel to the whole Solar-Dragonblood/Sidereal conflict. Despite being equals, on a conceptual sense, with their mates, they're not. Why?

Because if they were, it would undermine the narrative of the return of the Solar Exalted. If Lunars were competent and as strong as the lore says they were, they'd return to a Realm in the midst of a war with the combined forces of the Silver Pact. Which would be an interesting campaign concept, actually. But since all of Creation must be a playground for Solars, Lunars aren't allowed to succeed at anything of importance during the time of their absence. Which is a shame.

From what anyone can tell, one guy took the Caul while all the others just lay about and fuck animals.

Just how bad is Paragon?

hi oros

Not really.

The city state is a heaven and one of the most policed and less dangerous city in Creation. One of the only city where you can wander at night and not expect to be robed, kidnapped, and sold as a slave in a Guild's market.

The man is prideful, but also extremely competent, an enlightened tyrant in the strictest sense. He has a sense of humor, allows a healthy amount of freedom of expression in his kingdom, rules benevolently, and knows his limits. He's also hard working and treats his harem fairly.

His only Achille's heel is his jealousy toward the Solar exalted and his feeling that he should have exalted already. Those will probably be his downfall.

>His only Achille's heel is his jealousy toward the Solar exalted and his feeling that he should have exalted already. Those will probably be his downfall.
Would he only accept a Solar Exaltation or would he be bribed by an Infernal one instead?

If he's willing to settle, he's presumably got the influence to snag himself one of those black-market exigenses.

Is he really all that merciful?
We've seen what he does to his exalted secretary.

So what's the consensus on siege weapons? Are they a good thing to have in your army? Are they too strong, too weak, or do they occupy a sweet spot? What do you think about the Lightning Ballista and Implosion Bow?

Trebuchet's seem good for what they're designed to do (destroy fortifications).

Balistae opeerate in a strange area. More powerful than normal, not powerful enough to deal with the flying tyrant lizards my enemies army consist of.

It would depend on the circumstance.

The Perfect of Paragon has a strong feeling of resentment born of an inferiority complex toward the Solars. As enlightened and clever as he is, as old and powerful, he is still only a mortal. With the return of the Solars, he feels that he should have been amongst the first to exalt. After all, isn't there a better mortal in all Creation?

This is a fire that is stoked every time he sees another street urchin exalting for no apparent reason. Why not him? Dammit, he deserves it. Isn't he worthy? Isn't it time? Why did that girl here exalted to greatness while he didn't?

The man is usually highly practical, analytical, and calm, but the return of the Solars has fractured his ego. He knows it bothers him irrationally, but he can't get it out of his mind. His relationship with Scarlet Whisper has the potential to go very wrong very quickly, because she is a living remainder that she is promised to greatness, not him. Everything is all right for now, because he still control her, but Scarlet Whisper will shakes off the scepter eventually. I can totally see him imploding irrationally in the close future, and do something very stupid and very self-destructive.

To answer your question, he is usually too prideful to accept an Infernal exaltation out of the blue. If he implodes though, and loses his kingdom or something, he is prime Infernal material.

No, siege weapons explicitly don't interact with Legendary Size. Ballista have the Piercing tag, but I don't know how useful that it for BGs, and the catapault has the Smashing tag, but does that even work on BGs? I don't even know what niece the fire projector fills, but it's the only mundane siege weapon without the Slow tag, so you don't have to constantly reload it, but the fact that it only fires out to short range means that you always have an accuracy penalty when using it.

My point exactly. I mean, the piercing and the large strength mean it's better for killing war elephants than nothing, but it still falls short of being your one-stop anti legendary size solution.

The Perfect is not a candidate for Exaltation in his current state. His artifact is a spiritual crutch, because it enforces a love for him that is entirely external to his own actions. Scarlet Whisper reswore the oath willingly on her exaltation... because she was genuinely in love with him. Willing assumption of chaaaaains!

The only way I could see the Perfect exalting would be if he put down the Scepter and walked away from his empire, to start again. Maybe giving it up to Scarlet Whisper. That'd be pretty nice as a redemption arc.

That is a fucking meme. Scarlet Whisper is content with serving the Perfect and any whisper of impropriety is malicious rumors spread by enemies of the state seeking its dissolution.

It does seem like Scarlet Whisper is his weak link. The Scepter is supposed to be inviolable, immutable, undeniable. And do it is only natural that a Solar could be able to deny its nature. And in the act, prove that his rule can be broken.
Hard to say that your system is perfect when the method by which it is exerted can be fucked with.

Out of curiosity, what do think of the Lightning Ballista and the Implosion Bow?

Any Pastebin of the new Adversaries yet?

inb4 exalting breaks all the oaths that were sworn on the scepter leading to the loss of his kingdom.
>You've gotten what you wanted Perfect, but at what cost?
Would help enforce the idea that you don't need to be an Exalt to change things.

The thing to remember about the Silver Pact is that it isn't actually an organization. It's more like, well, a pact, an agreement between Lunars to play by some common basic rules. Younger Lunars shouldn't care much about the ancient grudges of their elders.

It's no worse than any other city-state, and it's better than many. It's flaws are different than those of many other nations, but not greater. That's how things are currently on a practical level, but obviously the way things work in Paragon has a lot of potential to go very, very wrong.

In 2e, the Scepter's hold is permanently broken when the Solar raises its essence higher than the current Scepter's owner. Look at the essence rating of Scarlet Whisper. Yeah. She has maybe months before she'll stop being under the Perfect's influence, whether she wants it or not.

The issue is less about the Perfect's power than the fact that Scarlet Whisper is both a living proof of the heights offered to a Solar and of his own inadequacies, and a clutch for him. As long as the Perfect holds Scarlet Whisper, he can claim that he is, in some way, better than at least one Solar. In the beginning this wasn't that important, but Scarlet showed him how stupidly powerful a Solar can get. She is already better than him in many subjects!

The more powerful she gets, the more the Perfect feels inadequate and furious, and the more he is using his domination over her as a clutch. It's a classical toxic relationship.

>The only way I could see the Perfect exalting would be if he put down the Scepter and walked away from his empire, to start again. Maybe giving it up to Scarlet Whisper. That'd be pretty nice as a redemption arc.

Yeah. As I see it, the man has the potential for exaltation if not for his pride. The minute he willingly departs of his kingdom I'd exalt him.

A lot harder to hand out to your battlegroups.

If you want a giant ranged weapon that upsets people, powerbows and siege crossbows already exists. If you want to destroy fortifications, siege weapons already exist. They upset battlegroups (up to and including a wyld hunt) something chronic, but if you're an essence there's probably more efficient ways to use the 20m and 1 wp to upset battlegroups.

Still, if you're a non-combat character who barely knows which end the pointy end is, there are worse ways to save yourself from a wyld hunt. Of course, where it really excells, is in taking out fortifications regular siege weapons would struggle with. Like, say, the imperial manse.

>As I see it, the man has the potential for exaltation if not for his pride.

I mean, if Pride prevented someone being a solar I don't think we'd see any solars.

>Yeah. As I see it, the man has the potential for exaltation if not for his pride. The minute he willingly departs of his kingdom I'd exalt him.

Honestly, I see it more as 'The Perfect only hasn't exalted because his role in the story is to be That Guy Who Hasn't Exalted'. He's done stuff that outstripped plenty of people who have exalted but he's been avoided because the Perfect exalting would dramatically change the nature of the story.

It's not so much pride as vainglory. He's proud of the things he's accomplished with his artifact, not the things he actually did himself. A humble village headman works much harder to infinitely smaller gains than the Perfect, and that hypothetical individual would be more worthy of an Exaltation than he could ever be.

You're allowed to feel pride in your accomplishments. But Exaltation is earned, and the Perfect was just a lucky scavenger lord who found a rod of fascism. Regardless of his motivations, there's nothing inherently heroic about using it for its function.

I think that the main problem with siege weapons is the fact that they're not in the core book, and because of that they've literally just a single charm that interacts with them. A charm that lets siege weapons ignore the primary benefits of Legendary Size could be one charm, maybe keying off of Giant Slaying attitude from Tiger Warrior Training. The ability to use a siege weapon on your own, without the need of a BG could be another. There's a small charmtree waiting to be written, I feel.

Even with the rod, he built up a civilisation that works fantastically well and has survived despite all the various exalts about. The idea that the Perfect did nothing of value really doesn't sit right with me and really undersells the man.

That and I mean, we have an entire caste of Solars for 'Guys who could have exalted by cheating'.

The Scepter is a tool, and tools don't use themselves. Setting up a stable successful city-state and maintaining control of that city-state for centuries is an impressive achievement, even with the help of an artifact.

what does the scepter do

Magically enforce oaths sworn on it.

If someone swears to obey your rules and then breaks them, they suffer horrible pain. It also makes you immune to mind control iirc. It's a good government tool but it's also a very focused one.

How did he use it?

If you disobey the owner you either feel pain or die. And it increases the life of the owner as well.

As someone who plays an I.S.E./Falling Hammer Strike/Ferocious Jab build in another 3E game, and therefore finds most of their combat tricks turned off against Legendary Sized creatures (despite being strong enough to throw them a couple of range bands), I suspect the main way exalts are meant to ignore the 'primary' benefits of Legendary Size is by doing 10+ post-soak dice of damage.

People in his city, when they hit a certain age have a choice to give up citizenship or swear on the rod to obey the laws of the nation.

If Ma-Ha-Suchi doesn't have his rape pits this edition is dead to me.

But the Exaltation doesn't care about results. Sure, the Perfect created what amounts to a idylic utopia in the modern age of sorrows. But that wasn't him struggling to keep a community together in the face of incredible odds. It was him using an artifact. It's easy. Almost too easy.

You can argue that Exaltations are also unearned sources of power, but Exaltations only augment what is already there. By using the scepter, he's just recreating the Stately Order, in a flawed and limited form. He's not really changing the status quo in any way, and that's why he's not a Solar Exalt. He hasn't had to undergo any personal reflection or existential crisis for centuries. He was once a hero... and now, he's just resting on his laurels.

I'll never understand why some people consider this such a terrible evil. Are people arguing for Paragon being aterrible shithole because people actually have to obey the law anarchists or something? I mean, there's plenty of potential for some truly disturbing shit in the Perfect's sceptre and its powers. Giving that kind of power to one man is almost certainly a bad idea in the long run, as Perfect having a mental breakdown or something like that could really ruin a whole lot of lives. Plenty of people seem to be adamantly of the opinion that Paragon is and has to be a terrible place right now, not just potentially, because totalitarianism.

lame

i wouldnt exalt the guy either

>But that wasn't him struggling to keep a community together in the face of incredible odds. It was him using an artifact. It's easy. Almost too easy.

But he has had to work hard. He had to build the civilisation, even with the scepter. He's had to keep it safe from environmental troubles and outside influence, against people who are themeselves exalts. He'd very easy make a bureaucracy supernal solar.

Solars don't need to change the status quo, they need to perform a great deed. One can do great deeds reinforcing it.

Yup, all he had to do was walk into town, say "hey I have this mind-control artifact, why don't you guys come here and swear fealty to me on it?" and watch people rush to him. Easy peasy. Then he just had to set up and maintain trade and diplomatic relationships with his neighbors, avoid having his city conquered and avoid getting his artifact stolen by any of the numerous powerful entities who might want it. It's all easy as fuck, right?

Lots of people have to do the same things, except they don't have artifacts to help with that. Doesn't mean they all get to exalt.

>He hasn't had to undergo any personal reflection or existential crisis for centuries. He was once a hero... and now, he's just resting on his laurels.

That. Solar exaltations don't seek for realized greatness: they seek the potential for greatness and change. They only exalt those who need it. The Perfect doesn't need it. He is too ossified for a Solar exaltation.

What purely mortal civilisations are as notable as his? I mean, what he's done is more impressive than half the core circle's stuff who just sorta seemed to exalt 'Because'.

He has rape pits?

Don't bother, they're no-DBs-allowed rape pits.

The west lionises concepts like freedom and democracy. The idea of sacrificing these freedoms is therefore seen as wrong, especially for such insidious things as security, comfort and socialised healthcare.

But the current status quo sucks. There's a reason why it's called the Age of Sorrows. In the First Age, you didn't need a super-fascist artifact to create a peaceful state. Stately Order was just one vision of many of an ideal government.

The Perfect is essentially complicit in the tides of history, a nominary satrapy of the Realm, allowed to keep to their own business, but not doing anything to change the injustices outside of his little domain. That's probably about as much as a mortal can achieve in the World of Exalted. It's a great achievement... but not for a Solar. Or any of the Celestines, for that matter.

The Delzahn empire, with Chiaroscuro as its heart, springs to mind. To be fair, though, that's not really comparable. Paragon is largely the creation of a single man, while the Delzahn have built their power over the course of several generations, and have tradition, established cultural identity and shared blood to tie them together and under the Tri-Khan. Perfect didn't have that when he started his reign.

That seems weird to me, considering that literally every society that has ever existed requires sacrificing some freedoms. No nation, or even sany smaller community, could exist if people didn't agree to some common rules and generally follow those rules even when they didn't really want to.

>But the current status quo sucks. There's a reason why it's called the Age of Sorrows. In the First Age, you didn't need a super-fascist artifact to create a peaceful state. Stately Order was just one vision of many of an ideal government.

But Solar Exaltations are not about 'Good'. They are about 'Great' and he's achieved greatness by managing to make a civilisation that's stood the test of time despite not having an exalt at the helm.

>It's a great achievement... but not for a Solar. Or any of the Celestines, for that matter.

It's also greater than basically any of the corebook circle. I suppose we can't all be as great as 'Girl who yells at Sun'.

Corebook circle is legit awful and I suggest against using them for any purpose.

If Solar exaltations valued realized greatness, only Guild leaders, emperors and rich merchants would exalt.

A Solar exaltation value the potential for world-wide change over anything else. The Perfect is one of the greatest mortals in Creation, but his potential for change has died long ago.

If a Solar exaltation was available in his youth, he probably would have exalted. Right now he won't, not unless he abandons his kingdom.

It's a poophole because people in Paragon are compelled to do good, because it instills a psychological addiction to be good. Imagine that every time you picked up a piece of litter from the sidewalk you got a hit of heroin. Yeah.

And this doesn't just cover generic do-good actions. It also covers informing on potential traitors to the Perfect of Paragon. Killing his enemies. All of that. And if you disobey him, you are compelled to go inside and die quietly in a horrendous fashion. Oh, and he can look through the eyes of any citizen of his nation at will.

It turns humanity into servile cattle, basically. If being good isn't a choice, then what value does doing goodness have? It basically tramples on Exalted's primacy of free will.

>A Solar exaltation value the potential for world-wide change over anything else.

No it doesn't. Otherwise, no one defending a concept would ever exalt because they are fighting to keep something the same. Solar exaltation want heroism in the old sense (Not anything to do with goodness). They want epic, impressive deeds rather than some arbitrary 'Change'.

>Right now he won't, not unless he abandons his kingdom.

Or does something impressive like 'Defending it against an exalt trying to take it'.

>Solar exaltation want heroism in the old sense
Which is the potential for world-wide change. That's more or less the definition of heroism in the old sense. The will to power, changing the world. What didn't you get?

>It's a poophole because people in Paragon are compelled to do good, because it instills a psychological addiction to be good. Imagine that every time you picked up a piece of litter from the sidewalk you got a hit of heroin. Yeah.

Actually, he doesn't have that one of the artifacts. It's part of a pair, one is the Feelgood Juice one. He's only got the 'Make people feel pain' (Ranging from 'A headache' to 'Die'). He's searching for the other one because he'd much rather make his people feel good than have them feel pain.

The sheer amount of damage that siege engines do for makes it much easier for them to crash an enemy of Legendary Size, but they still suffer from being unable to do more than (3 + Strength) damage in a decisive attack.

>and generally follow those rules even when they didn't really want to.

But you don't have to. You're allowed your little rebellions. From the small to the big. You can sneak a drink of alcohol when you're underage. You can skateboard in a no skateboarding zone. You can campaign against leaders you don't like and see them removed from office.

In Paragon if there's a sign saying "Don't Walk on the Grass" you do not walk on the grass. And you like it.

...I forgot about that. Mea culpa. Well. That makes him a bit better, than. But the point still stands. To coerce people with pain is incredibly shit, and the fact that he isn't a sadist somehow makes it worse, because he's doing it for your own good rather than self-edification. He will never relent, ever.

Siege engines tend to be wielded by battlegroups, so can't do decisive attacks anyway.

>if people have to obey the law even when they don't want to, what value does law have?
Really, that's literally all there is to Paragon's thing. If you disobey the law, you have to report it to the relevant authority and suffer the appropriate punishment, or else you'll feel gradually intensifying pain. That's it. Laws of Paragon aren't unusually strict, and punishments aren't unusually harsh. It's just that people can't get away with breaking the law.

I mean, do you view real life the same way you do Paragon? Do you think that the justice system shouldn't work too well, because if people are actually caught and punished when they commit crimes, the society somehow becomes a "poophole"?

Yeah but remember: Everyone in there has agreed to that willingly. Now, yes, there is social pressure (Not swearing means you are not a citizen) but he isn't forcing them into it unwillingly and you can choose not to swear and he won't kill you.

That's more freedom than a lot of places in Exalted. It's like a system with a perfect police force that never fails to find the criminal.

>You can campaign against leaders you don't like and see them removed from office.
This is only possbile in nations where it isn't against the law, user. Also you're literally saying that it's good that people can break the law and get away with it, which is a view I really, really can't agree with. Anarchism is not a political ideology I'd like to see put into practice.

Ah, yes. I remember Heracles and Gilgamesh's great crusades to change the world and not keep things the same.

I think that a society that compels people to be good through the force of law is inferior to one which creates citizens who see a reason to obey them. You can't enforce morality with magic or punishment. It only gives credence to the primacy of force... which is what Cecelyne is all about, really. A truly just government won't use torture to enforce its laws. So although Paragon is a pretty nice place, in setting... I wouldn't want to live there, either.

I was originally speaking of western coutnries that lionise the ideas of freedom and democracy. But even in countries where campaigning against leaders is against the law, people do - and some even manage to be succesful.

I have (admitedly personal) reasons why I would not like to see Anarchism put into practice, at least not where I live, but if there is a choice between acting lawfully and acting justly, I like to believe I would choose to act justly.

>I think that a society that compels people to be good through the force of law is inferior to one which creates citizens who see a reason to obey them.

You are assuming these things are mutually exclusive. Society is not just literally one person, it is a large number of people who all have various opinions on things. You aren't going to have a society where every single citizen feels a reason to obey the law because then you wouldn't have criminals.

Not to mention compelling people who wouldn't normally be good through force of law is more or less the basis of literally every single legal system on the planet, so I do not see exactly what you're getting at there.

Some people are literally born defective though.

>which is what Cecelyne is all about, really.
Since we don't know how the artifact came to be, would it be reasonable to consider it to be Cecelyne's yozi-artifact?

Okay, but every nation in the real world enforces its laws, by force if necessary. There is no place where people get to choose whether they want to obey the laws or not. Paragon is no different from any real or fictitious society in this respect. Only difference is in how effective and automatic law enforcement is there. The basic idea - that lwas should be followed, and crimes should be found out and punished - is something every nation, including yours, adheres to.

We do know how the artifact came to be. It was made by a Solar.

But could he/she have had help from one of Cecylene's fetishes?

The freedom to do good is also the freedom to be evil. Some people are going to use their liberty to be horrible to others. But that doesn't mean we should take away the capacity altogether.

In real life, of course, this isn't possible, for a variety of reasons. But this is Exalted. Why not create a system of laws that everyone understand to be just?

The laws that the Paragon creates are only accountable to him, in the end. And he's no Exalt, or even a God. Every rule he creates is no more fallible than he is. He may be a benevolent dictator, but he is still a dictator. He is not bound by his own laws, he is above them.

Many countries have both unenforced and unenforcable laws.

...Are you actually retarded?

There's lots of options to be dicks to other human beings without breaking the laws in Paragon, and even in Creation there are so many different brands of morality and justice that "creating a system of laws that everyone understand to be just" is like saying "we need to find a flavor of ice cream that everyone can agree to be their favorite" only a lot more people will die in the process because people tend to feel strongly about their cultures values of justice.

Not to mention, by your own statement he is a mortal. He is not Exalted nor a God, so how exactly is he meant to make this "system of laws that everyone understand to be just"? And with that in mind, Exalts and Gods are equally fallible in Exalted. In fact, wildly fallible. Gods can be bullies or glorified gangsters, and I am not sure you heard of this, but there was this thing with the Exalts called the Great Curse.

How many nations have *only* unenforced and unenforcable laws, user?

>Why not create a system of laws that everyone understand to be just?
How the hell would the Perfect do this?

But people willingly chose to break laws all the time. On one end, this is petty thuggery, murder, thievery, rape, etc. This is bad, and even I don't object to these crimes being controlled in the Paragon's fashion.

But on the other, there are crimes committed on purpose to protest the injustness of laws. The civil rights movement, for instance. Whistleblowing. Protest. Underground newspapers.

If someone protested again the Perfect of Paragon, in word or in deed, they'd get the same punishment as a rapist or a murderer.

Is this really fair?

...

>And with that in mind, Exalts and Gods are equally fallible in Exalted. In fact, wildly fallible. Gods can be bullies or glorified gangsters, and I am not sure you heard of this, but there was this thing with the Exalts called the Great Curse.
It is, in fact, an important part of the setting. Exalted can be very, very competent in executing their plans and policies, but they have no special insight into matters of morality. They can be selfish, they can be shortsighted, they can be intensely committed to a rigid and narrow brand of righteousness, they can have goals and values that are in conflict with those of other Exalted. Either Morke or Holden said something along the lines of "there is no Rule Wisely and Justly Prana in Exalted", and while Holdemorke are fuckwits, they were perfecly on point in this.

Through a Solar Exaltation!

But really, this illustrates why the Paragon is so petty and small in his ambitions, despite everything that's he's accomplished. Creating a universal morality and unquestionably fair laws would be a good motivation for a Solar Exalt. The Perfect, on the other hand, is content with his little sandbox state, ignoring the injustices of the Scarlet Dynasty, the slavery that happens *right in his backyard*, and everything else. Once he's gone, his state won't endure. It will collapse into nothingness as the pent-up urges of an entire lifetime explode in a orgy of violence and anarchy.

>If someone protested again the Perfect of Paragon, in word or in deed, they'd get the same punishment as a rapist or a murderer.
No. No, user, what the fuck are you talking about? Paragon has different punishments for different crimes, just like every other nation, and like points out, talking shit about the Perfect isn't even illegal.

By definition, most failed states.

I think the point was, if they don't fess up and seek punishment, they have the same 'punishment' of excruciating pain followed by death.

>The Perfect should pick fights with the most powerful empire in the world
>And the most powerful merchant organization in creation

Also, very few people think that strongly of slavery in Exalted since it's just kind of a thing people grow up with.

That sounds awfully like a struggle session, where everyone gets together and talks about their crimes against the Perfect and how they're bad people to escape punishment.

That reminds me a lot about the Hundred Flowers campaign, where the Perfect uses it to identify potential dissidents in his own regime. If in the process of the work, they commit an actual crime, then he gets to catch them :V

But that's just one uncharitable interpretation for it, I guess.

>Hundred Flowers campaign
I'd say make it half & half.
This marks out the things that people dislike about him, as well as marking out those who say such things.