Zug zug Edition
Discuss the lore and story of the Warcraft franchise and its application in and around traditional games.
>Document compendium: Contains official (ex-canon) DnD 3.x variants and a fan made DnD 5e version! Also contains the official Warcraft Chronicles volumes 1 and 2.
drive.google.com
>Previous thread
>Rivendare is still around
God damn it, we just can't get rid of these Scourge fucks.
It's two or three expansions after Legion and after a great deal of feedback, you're brought onto the designer team to reintroduce artifact weapons in this expansion. Apparently they were a big hit, so they want to try them again. Here's the catch, though. They don't want to use any of the previous artifact weapons they used, but they still want to primarily use artifact weapons from the lore rather than make new ones.
Which famous, legendary weapons in the lore do you proceed to turn into artifact weapons for this new expansion, with this in mind?
Wow, you're delusional.
Everyone on Veeky Forums is either Horde or Nelf, there's a sum total of 3 true Alliance players out of maybe 31+ posters. Stop acting persecuted.
I make shit up for all of the weapons, since apparently my boss thinks that artifact weapons were a huge hit.
People keep posting that picture, but that's just concept stuff that didn't even make it into Warcraft 3. It has never been canon.
Which isn't to say that their current state is any good either, but they were never quite as alien as some people like to pretend.
I've got a theory that since N'zoth was the first Old God caught, his prison is built mostly around the old Black Empire architecture that was already there instead of the more Titan stuff of the other ones.
They thought they were gonna Elf up the Horde but in reality they Horde up the Elves.
This.
Agelessly above mortal concerns was never a thing for night elves, despite what purplehumanposters say.
nah, she just has a leather fetish
well the horde thrives on persecution.
...shit I replied to that poster on accident, this has nothing to do with the artifact stuff ignore it.
Apparently every place on the internet is "Horde Biased" according to some people.
I don't choose any lore weapons. If we're bringing Artifacts back, I say we lean heavy into the customization part of it.
Instead we have thee characters or organizations the players team up with to defeat the Neo Burning Legion or whatever else have the bright idea to go around Azeroth (and beyond) to snatch up as many sources of power, technology, and materials as possible and cram them into weapons. The player gets to choose shit about the things, so we don't run into the problem of infinite Ashbringers again.
Also since knaifu and the dickish mage staff were big hits, why not have all of 'em do that talking shit.
Okay then, let's repeat your statement in this thread and see what the response is.
The Horde lost in MoP.
The Alliance won in MoP.
Adding to this, there's a reason why Vol'jin caught popularity. And that's because his reaction to Garrosh becoming Warchief mirrored that of the Horde fanbase. Garrosh was always portrayed previously as a rabid warmongering ragetard who couldn't keep his dick in his pants. Vol'jin said what everyone was thinking. Garrosh was a villain ball that they'd just been handed. However, he was reassured by the authority, Thrall or Blizzard, that he was being too presumptuous and that the decision would make sense in time.
Then it all turned out exactly as predicted.
This is true.
>t. Male Human Paladin main
Accurate.
The Horde lost big in MoP.
The Alliance won nothing in MoP.
It wasn't exactly a Zero Sum outcome.
>Maiev "Cast in the Name of Elune, Ye Guilty" Shadowsong
The Faction War is shit for everyone, Blizz just keeps it going for marketing purposes so dumb fucks who don't care about the lore can be tribal.
This. Horde got shitfucked, Alliance gained nothing apart from Horde being shitfucked. Which technically means they won, I guess.
What said. If your roomate gets drunk and breaks your stuff, and you yell at him for it afterwards, did you "win"?
I mean, if you kicked his ass and warned his buddies that they'd be evicted if they pulled that shit again, I'd be willing to say yes. That's a win.
Glad the CK2 mod's initial focus is on the First War.
Thing is at that point many Horde players had already gotten so gorged on the high of "Showing the Alliance what bosses we are!" that to them, making the rival lose is the greatest measure of triumph.
It's not. Consolidating territories and rebuilding our lost towns is a victory, not a stern warning.
>CK2 mod
Could I get some sauce on that, my man.
I'd just use classic vanilla and Burning Crusade weapons and tie in old or forgotten factions. Maybe go into Wrath too. Ideally visually iconic weapons that could get HD revamps.
Like Warriors getting tied to the Mithril Order or Thorium Brotherhood and you get to reforge lost weapons. Like The Unstoppable Force for Arms Warriors. Since it's a pig-headed hammer I would throw in Quilboar stuff (getting Agamaggan's spirit to imbue it with power or using his bones to restore it).
Only his son, Ridvendare senior is Dead
moddb.com
they're taking their sweet time
In my experience the Pro-Garrosh players in were always outnumbered by people who hated his guts.
He was THE most hated character in the game during Wrath by far. Maybe that changed as Cata went on, I kind of dropped off early that expac, but I remember a lot more bitching about Garry than praise-remember Abesik Kampfire?
The Ultimate Visual Guide states the Baron's soul is bound to Kel'thuzad's, so Rivendare Senior is still around too. His son's remains were stolen in the paladin class campaign, right?
Stop samefagging your bullshit into every thread.
>Like Warriors getting tied to the Mithril Order or Thorium Brotherhood and you get to reforge lost weapons. Like The Unstoppable Force for Arms Warriors. Since it's a pig-headed hammer I would throw in Quilboar stuff (getting Agamaggan's spirit to imbue it with power or using his bones to restore it).
Pretty fucking ace.
Honestly I've had a huge issue with not so much gear inflation as the ever increasing new variety of "Better" materials.
I feel like Dark Iron, Elementium, Bloodstone, and Arcanite were really some of the best materials. I feel like only Saronite really competed with the original ones in cool factor.
Garrosh-lovers were always the DEUS VULT morons of the Horde. A very vocal, very annoying minority that somehow gained pleasure from being pretending to be warmongering, genocidal assholes.
I've met people who consider Cataclysm a better story, and on average better questing, than MoP not because Garrosh isn't yet deliberately evil, but just because the Horde wasn't losing.
Wrath showed him as an idiot being kept total failure by Saurfang fixing things behind his back. Cataclysm was the point where he gained -some- fans, partly because the writers kept giving the Horde victories, partly because of that one semi-honorable moment where he threw a general off a cliff.
I think I remember what happened-a couple weeks a go some guy said "post your favorite faction and why" and it was mostly Hordefags on that day, at that timezone. I guess that's where he's getting that from.
But, well, timezones, and also the fact the majority of those posters also admitted to being Trollfags, not Orcfags.
>threw a general off a cliff.
And they never fixed it so he fell more than 20 feet.
No, I'm actually using the fact that everyone here thinks humans are boring as proof.
Real Alliance players don't find humans boring, so everyone else is either a Horde, a Nelf, or a Helf-wannabe "Not a human IC" bitching about Velfs.
Broxigar's Axe of Cenarius.
A purified Ashkandi.
The Bloodhoof Runespear, reforged.
Fearbreaker, the hammer passed between Magni, Anduin, Baine and Jaina.
Gorehowl.
Krolmir, Thorim's Hammer.
Serathil.
Those are a few I'd consider.
I have a soft spot for Fel Iron. My warlock was an engineer, so I liked the idea of throwing radioactive hellbombs at people.
And with that much time, it's possible Jaina's staff, Atiesh, Shalamayne, Quel'delar, and a few others will become available, too. Maybe even bring back the Fangs of the Father or Val'anyr.
Nothing compares to just how rare elementium felt in vanilla. It really did feel like the ultimate metal, without any equal.
Saronite, blackrock ore and demonsteel are the only materials which have any lore behind them in the expansions.
>Pop numbers
Not sure those really mean anything in talks about lore-minded fans, the majority of WoW players don't give a shit about lore and choose race based on aesthetic.
And humans aren't boring because they're inherently boring, they're boring because they've been reduced to the Wrynn dynasty and little else. Kul Tiras looks cool.
>Broxigar's Axe of Cenarius.
disgusting
Gilneans are also humans.
Gilneans are furry night elves at this point user.
They did give some lore to Leystone saying it's Mithril-light and even more magically active than Elementium (Which I choose to believe means arcane only because Elementium is my favorite material and it should be unmatched in elemental and possibly shadow activity)
Not anymore.
Nah, Legion has finally brought them back from that horrible fate. Greymane is based, Tess cute, Lorna hot.
Elementium is literally the magic of all of the Elemental Lords, enslaved by the Old Gods and bound into a material form. I ended up horribly disappointed when it turned out to be the basic blacksmithing material of Cataclysm.
Yeah, it was sad. Also they didn't make the ghostly movements on the surface loop correctly.
My personal tiering is still putting Elementium or true elementium near the top.
>A purified Ashkandi.
>purified
Explain.
Speaking as a Horde player around that time, and the mindset was one of desperate hope that Blizzard wasn't just setting us up to be villains. If the Horde could be portrayed as justified, if Garrosh went through an Arc where he learned to suppress his rageboner, things might turn out fine in the end. The Alliance made some shady moves in Cataclysm, so there was reason to believe Blizzard might not have been planning to -completely- shit all over the Horde.
What we're going through with Sylvanas right now is the exact same psychological phenomena. The foolish belief they must be planning something to make the Horde justified, because they wouldn't dare pull the same shit twice after everyone clearly expressed how much they hated it, right? Right? I mean, making Sylvanas Warchef already shits on the Horde enough as it is.
They aren't going to force us to be the aggressors in two separate wars that no Horde player actually wants their faction to start, are they?
Blizzard's pretty retarded, but they can't possibly be that retarded. They can't possibly think the bile spewing, desperate clutching for justification, and general toxic atmosphere Cataclysm created was a good thing. Except they do. They call that "faction pride", a misnomer if I ever saw one. That attitude is more "faction shame" than anything else. The Alliance is ashamed of their faction being weak, the Horde of it being evil, and they're trying to play it off as if that's not the case.
>Atiesh
It belongs to Dadgar.
Azerite is officially the ultimate material in the Warcraft universe, without any equal. Even if it isn't a crafting material. Elementium probably comes next, then you've probably got a tie between saronite and demonsteel. Arcanite and truesteel are probably tied after that, as I imagine the Alliance's elite wielded arcanite and the Horde's elite wielded truesteel during the First and Second Wars. That's headcanon though.
>Wrynn Dynasty.
Low level zones still exist, even if they're not current content. Defias events in Westfall show some character, 80s memes in Redridge have a charm as long as you don't have to do it too often, and Duskwood works okay as a kind of gloomy frontier right before you hit Stranglethorn.
Corrupted by Draenei magic or corrupted by dragon magic. It's tainted regardless of whether Turalyon is wielding the real one or the real one was taken by the Dark Horde at Blackrock.
Well yeah, I just am not looking forward to that part of BFA.
Also I figure that Leystone is like a naturally occurring Arcanite.
Well the Alliance is off to a good start since it's not feeling very weak at the moment.
If you forget the Nelves that is.
And I think they're at least taking the time to publicly and globally display there's division in the Horde already with Saurfang, Baine being in the "Nothing good comes out of Silithus" camp, Sylvanas and Gallywix in the "Thishs will change everythingsh" camp, and Liadrin with Theron stuck in the middle with them.
If the Horde fanbase get on the ball immediately and voice that they're NOT okay with Sylvanas world domination plans, fate can still be changed.
It was previously a greatsword wielded by Anduin Lothar. It's not the Great Royal Sword, as Turalyon wields that one these days. It might be Quel'Zaram, or it could be a third, unmentioned blade that Anduin Lothar once wielded. Either way, I doubt it always had that draconic appearance.
The elementium that pops around in Cataclysm is inferior version, as far as I know.
>It is created from the volatility of the Old Gods in their conflict with their minions
Imperial Qiraji Armaments/Imperial Qiraji Regalia
>Ages ago, Neltharion had his drogbar slaves experiment with ways to merge the elements into a binding ore. He believed it would be the ultimate tool in his rise to power. There were at least fifty attempts.
wow.gamepedia.com
>It is warm to the touch. wow.gamepedia.com
Pure elementium items, which requires extremely skillful craftmanship, is flawless and indestructible.
wow.gamepedia.com
>It was revealed that the Twilight's Hammer forged a new set of armor plates made of elementium for Deathwing. The cultists of the Twilight's Hammer use their powers to draw elementium metal from deep beneath the earth. They coax it out into twisted spikes to form their buildings, rooted right into the defiled ground. Elementium spikes are still pliable and brittle shortly after being weaved from the ground and can be "plucked" before they harden.
wow.gamepedia.com
Basically Twilight's Hammer made inferior version that isn't ancient enough to match original thing.
That's pretty weird headcanon considering Orc upgrades in WC3 explicitly name Arcanite as the weapon material for highest quality weapons.
Alliance gets Mithril Forged.
>Even if it isn't a crafting material.
Depends on what you mean to craft user.
At least until he dies. The Curse of Jaina Proudmoore is powerful stuff.
>If the Horde fanbase get on the ball immediately and voice that they're NOT okay with Sylvanas world domination plans, fate can still be changed.
You think if I cancel my account and say "won't return until Sylvannas is no longer warchief" it would matter?
Khadgar got that Okada face in this
What happens when you don't wear pants under your robes. Chilly legs
>Maiev "The True Terror of the Tides" Shadowsong
...
That brittle stuff is just for the spiral bits they use to prop up their tents. And once it's solidified for real it becomes more permanent.
There's no indication of precisely WHAT the diggable ore version is.
>That's pretty weird headcanon considering Orc upgrades in WC3 explicitly name Arcanite as the weapon material for highest quality weapons.
>Alliance gets Mithril Forged.
I mean that's after a long time on Azeroth so he could be right about WC1-2.
I also like the idea that since the horde wears less armor total and many of their units use spears they can afford to craft using fancier shit.
Can't really hurt.
The overarching narrative over decisions made in the beginning of Legion, perpetuated by YOUR comrades, is that Blizzard listens to sufficiently vocal complaints and changes things accordingly.
Put that theory to the test.
Where are warlocks even at right now? Thematically they don't seem to have a place anymore. Death Knights and Demon Hunters have taken over as the classes that people seem to be "ok" with using the enemy's power, same with shadow priests (since warlocks seem to have pretty much lost their connection to the Void?). DHs seem to be the go-to demon experts now too in every regard, rather than a more martial equivalent of the warlock.
The most notable warlocks are all massive villains, and there's basically no character around to represent the "ideal" Alliance/Horde warlock. Are they the only class that seem to be missing an actual place in the two factions?
Knaak hate and mediocre writing be damned, I like the Sunwell Trilogy. No RvB baggage, no big war mucking things up, just a straightforward fantasy story about individuals rather than factions.
>If the Horde fanbase get on the ball immediately and voice that they're NOT okay with Sylvanas world domination plans
It's obvious to everyone with half a brain that they're hoping Sylvanas isn't going to do that. They just don't want to play Warchief musical chairs and kill off yet another Horde leader. If Sylvanas dies, that's the last of the original leaders of the Horde in WoW.
They wanted to get rid of Garrosh the moment he was a dickhead in Wrath. He still became Warchief and lasted longer than Vol'jin, even though he was fucking hated. The Horde player reaction has basically just come to resolving to stretch their anus, because they're getting fucked no matter what they do. They may as well make it as painless as possible.
Orc pride is a shadow of what it once was. Trolls are hoping for the most out of Zandalar, but the Darkspear have probably lost faith after seeing how Blizzard squandered the opportunity to do anything with a Troll Warchief. Forsaken players know Sylvanas has a high chance of getting them fucked, and she already cost us a city. The Goblin leader is a slaver, and Tauren have no confidence in Baine.
Truly the Ace of WoW
That would provoke them to make Sylvanas into Raid boss.
Warlocks are generic wielders of all 'problematic' magics that other people are scared of wielding. They fuck around with souls, mind-altering shadow magic, uncontrollable and unstable fire magic and they still summon and bind demons. They lack anyone to represent them in a heroic fashion, but they still exist. It's not just a case of using the enemy's power, it's a case of delving into every single type of 'evil' magic that other people are scared of.
Yes but the Sunwell is literally a fucking girl human and the blue dragon is in love with it.
When you were playing the WC3 campaign, what did you think was the most likely outcome of the Sunwell being destroyed? Senseless RvB as the High Elves and Blood Elves split up because the elf prince is a fuck, or the remaining energy turning into a waifu?
Which clashes massively with their place in the story. At the start warlocks were the only class actually using "bad magics" to do good things, and they got nothing for it. Now we have Spriest lore, Demon Hunters and Death Knights all doing that and getting props for it. But warlocks? They're still literal basement dwellers, and though their class campaign would imply they made a massive effort in the war against the Legion (stealing the Jeweled Scepter of Sargeras (!) from Gul'dan, incapacitating a massive demon army in the nether, enslaving the notorious Eredar Twins etc), they don't really get acknowledged at all. The shallow motivation is "power"; but it doesn't lead anywhere at all.
>They may as well make it as painless as possible.
It won't be. Sacrificing the last and least like-able original leader is a small price to pay to avoid looking like the bad guy dindu's for another five years.
Come on, none of the class campaigns get acknowledged except for maybe the death knights and the paladins.
>Tess cute, Lorna hot.
Really wish the worgen had more important ladies who actually get out there and fight with their beast sides, though. Those two feel like they were created just to be forgettable cheerleaders for Gilneas. The closest we really have to a notable bad-bitch worgen is Lieutenant Thorn, and she doesn't even take the claws out until she loses Baros.
Wow you've got it backwards.
Spriests are considered a joking matter by the other priests, Death Knights only get praised by their Paladin bros who will stand with them against the cruel world that doesn't understand them, and Demon Hunters are elf-exclusive.
They get acknowledged by the presence of non-player characters of their class who actually play a part. Warlocks have never had an actual character show what a Horde/Alliance-aligned warlock would be like. Even with all their flavour, they feel incredibly disconnected from everything else.
I don't think anyone but the writers there expected the Sunwell to seek out a host/mortal form. I just kinda figured at the time it'd been ruined or re-aligned to empower undead.
Look. The players don't have a choice in this matter. We didn't have a choice with Garrosh, we don't have a choice now.
We're getting fucked. We know we're getting fucked. Blizzard jokes about how we're getting fucked. There's nothing else to do.
There's Tehd Shoemaker who hangs around with the Illidari hunting demons and being sassy.
I mean they're just so used to working in the shadows (Other than Golden's white haired gal that stalked Varian-Sempai as a quasi easter egg) that they don't really seek praise for it.
RIP Baros, truly his death was the tapeworm egg cherry on top of the shit sundae that was WoD.
>Maiev "Putting the War in Warden" Shadowsong
>Maiev "If He's Fel Send Him To Hell" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Use my Glaive to Fill a Mass Grave" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Killdorei Kaldorei" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Send an Owl to kill the Wildfowl" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Race War for the Falcosaur" Shadowsong
>Maiev "If They've Got Horns Their Ass Gets Torn" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Berserker Rage at Every Mage" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Illidari Get a Helicopter Party" Shadowsong
I really hope that Malfurion and Tyrande step down so that Maiev, Jarod, and Shandris can take over as the night elf leadership.
You could say the EXACT same thing about Rogues, dude.
>I mean they're just so used to working in the shadows (Other than Golden's white haired gal that stalked Varian-Sempai as a quasi easter egg) that they don't really seek praise for it.
Right, which make sense. The rogues do that too. But what I mean is that they have pretty much 0 non-player representation. There's no archetype for them to follow; mages have Khadgar and many other characters, paladins have a buttload, same with priests of all kinds (shadow are even more vindicated now with the void elves/Alleria, though that shit is weird as hell) etc etc. Do you see my point?
>Shandris
No way, she's Tyrande adoptive daughter.
Is she retarded as her mother?
Honestly? I find it kind of charming. Yeah, it's stupid as fuck when you boil it down and put it on paper like that, but it's SO pulp fantasy, in a way you don't usually see in Warcraft.
what archetype would they follow?
This is such a pointless thing to gripe about.
Their archetype is Gul'dan.
For gods sake man you're a warlock, you're the bad dude being bad, and you only kill the demons for shit, giggles and power. Own that fact.
I want a more multidimensional view of the Forsaken. They have a perfect justification for doing everything that they do, including bombing human settlements with plague. They're Lordaeron humans who were first abandoned by their allies, killed, then hated and rejected by the living when they came back as undead. Naturally they would want their kingdom back and all the living out. It's a sympathetic motivation. But they're not using it in the game. They're doing everything because Sylvanas told them to.
The Sunwell didn't "seek out" anything, though. It was a red dragon that transformed it in order to make it easier to hide.
>But they're not using it in the game.
Sure they are.
Hunters and Rogues don't have a good archetype. Especially rogues. The most legendary rogue in the game is fucking Valeera.
No, Shandris is pretty great handles Logistics, Recruiting, and Training in Feralas plus she soloed Garrosh and all of Orgrimmar once or twice. youtube.com
>that list
I like it!