/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

Force of Unlimited Lawnchair Works.

Stop
Just stop
It's been what, close to a year now? We've done this. We've done every single possible iteration of this. The general is dead, it's gone. If you remove that one single argument that this thread has become the remaining posts come in like a handful a day. What's the point anymore.

Only Thaumaturgy is canonically weaker than the Spheres

Bait

Idiot who took the bait

It doesn't, considering this hypothetical vampire has a Thaumaturgical ban at level 10.

Force of You Can't Touch This.

Strongest splats

OWoD: Demon > Mage > Vampire
NWoD: Mage > Demon > Mummy

Is It?

Yep

...

Powerman

Do you enjoy ruining these threads, you cunt?

Better thread this way

Easy to circumvent by coming up with a Path/ritual variation of Strike at the True Flesh: "invoke the very essence of the sorcerer’s weapon, reducing it to the embodiment of its very definition (or, as the more classically minded would put it, invoking the Platonic form) while simplifying its target to a similarly basic level. The results of such an invocation are usually devastating on both a philosophical and practical level as weapon and victim momentarily lose all supernatural attributes." "...However, all the target’s supernatural defenses (including Fortitude) are likewise negated — he soaks the attack only with his base Stamina. If the negation of his powers and defenses renders the target unable to soak lethal damage, he cannot soak the attack at all."

Nah. You can't touch this. Sorry pal.

So both are claimed to be superior but canonically we have examples of the Tremere curbstomping the Order of Hermes twice in the First and Second Massasa Wars

Or a single weakened Methuselah fresh from torpor enslaving ten of thousands of mortals in a single week while it took 3000 Awakened mages and 5000 allied Sorcerers to rally similar numbers in the same time span

Oh. It's this fucker. The guy who religiously cannot comprehend the idea of wizards shitting on the undead. How does it feel to be the sole contributor to the horrid state of this thread and the laughing stockk of Vampire players everywhere?

Yeah. Fluff beats mechanics erri' tiem'

So the Masassa War ended in the Tremere's favour, yet True Magick is still the superior product. Go figure. Maybe the Hermetics should learn to stop garnering enemies and actually work amongst themselves instead of petty political ramblings. It's one of the biggest contrasts between the two.

Of course you can. The Path power negates any supernatural protection the mage might have

Post thread themes I'll start
m.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Dg-g7t2l4
m.youtube.com/watch?v=eCiFO7qV54E

Sure, guy. Power doesn't necessarily constitute a victory. IE the power of Mages vastly outstrips that of the Kindred yet they still lost.

Nah. This Force cannot be targeted because it technically isn't there.

Either get Chimerstry or GTFO.

>both are limitless in capability
>one is static, the other is dynamic
>one side is canonically the greater of the two

>"So both are claimed to be superior"

You're twisting your neurons REAL hard there

The Force needs to exist written within the threads of the Tellurian so yeah it is there

Still looking for the right bloodline for my character. (S)He's a daeva futa stripper. Nothing so far has stood out as "this takes the deviant nature of the Daeva and turns it up to 12".

You don't necessarily need a specific bloodline for that do you? I mean what's the issue with just being a plain old Deva?

And yet from an outside perspective it isn't. Good job.

From an outside perspective you only cannot target it if your rating is lesser than 9, so yeah.

I don't claim to be an authority of Requiem, but is thaumaturgy a Discipline? Because if it's not, that doesn't actually mean anything.

>Requiem
>Thaumaturgy
What?

Only if you can target it. Which you can't.

They're pretty good, and I like how austere their mechanics are; they are extremely, extremely weak in a fight but they have broad categories of abilities (portal operation, incredible levels of fear inducement, and ability to impose lair effects).

I doubt an all beast game would be any good because of how the best powers are the shadow sneaky atavisms, and beasts are hopeless in a fight (beyond that spending XP to fight gud is a dangerous waste in nwod and won't help you against things that DON'T need to spend XP on fighting good).

nWoD? Mages are so superior this isn't even a question.
oWoD? Here waters become muddy, because there is a lot more vampire lore, and Archspheres are awfully written, even compared to awful 6+ Disciplines. Yep, in theory Archspheres seem to be more powerful, but effects are so Vulgar you can't use them ever, and nobody really does within the canon.

For all this blatant Mage shitting on Vampires you guys never bother to give ways to tone them down

Why would we?

The latter three are probably a tie.

Too bad ANY power can be effectively countered if the rating is greater so that wouldn't matter. That Force isn't powerful enough to make it untargettable by greater powers

What gives demons being stronger than vampires when Kolduns can hold half a dozen of Earthbound inside them, pop them out mystically chained and completely subservient/enslaved to be bossed around and then you also have the Tzimisce Antediluvian canonically outbrawling and defeating Kupala (the oldest and perhaps one of the strongest Earthbound)

Meant to reply to this

have fun facing an elohim

Considering Forces 9 can produce an entirely new force as per its function there's, quite literally, nothing preventing an ST from handing out sufficient leeway to his Archmage-player -- allowing her to manifest a 'Force of Perfected Conceptual Insubstantiality'. It's akin to arguing a Nightfolk can contest the space distorted around itself because a Correspondence adept didn't target it specifically.

As a house-rule one could demand conjunctional Spheres as a necessity.

Ladies please, you're all beautiful

Thaumaturgy is --static-- but not *too* static, when you're great at it you can make new rituals and Paths, depending on your efficiency and other factors this doesn't take too long (Creteus level). With gimmicks like actual existing rituals that create Thaumaturgical realms where there's no passage of time you can make as many as you have the patience for. When you're really great at it you can subvert Thaumaturgical principles and make rituals that don't require Thaumaturgy to use nor blood (Saulot level) & affect ALL mortals anywhere on Earth and even beyond (Tremere level, though keep in mind Tremere is an amauter in Thaumaturgy when compared to the likes of Mekhet). At the level of Caine he is said to be able make new Thaumaturgical powers on the fly.

In oWOD, vampires have the most impressive power of any splat - Plot Armor(tm).

Masquerade was the first WOD game, and its sales paid the salaries of the WW staff during the most of the heydays of WW. It's fans were also rabid and unforgiving. Thus, no matter the actual game mechanics or clear retardation of the subject vampires (Tremere!), the vamps always won, WW believed they had no other choice.

One can only read Blood Treachery, the second mage-Tremere war, as comedy, no less explain the ridiculous choices of the Technocracy when fighting Ravnon during the End Times (including the inexplicable absence of *any* Techno archmaster) as a shoehorn plot to achience a vampire-centric metaplot.

Luckily, in nWOD/CofD, vampires are no longer a sacred cow, and cannot depend on developer fiat to save their undead asses.

I've currently started a chronicle set in the suburbs of a Sabbat controlled metropolis, but it's a newly formed Camarilla court to try and get the metropolis back. So far, in a single session, I've had to kill my roommate's character for openly ripping the hearts out of the humans provided for refreshment in Elysium being held by the new Prince; and one of my players who swore on his life he'd be there and thus was woven into the first session's plot didn't arrive. Furthermore, every single character my roommate suggests to introduce into the next session ends up being a comedic slapstick character which he tries to import from his list of D&D characters.

How do I not make it obvious I am making the plots centered around the progression of the two players who seem enthused, in-character and theme, and consistent in their approach over the guy who'll end up showing up as a guest-star once a month and a roommate who can't make a character that doesn't involve comedy from a Jay and Silent Bob film. Things like "Can my Ravnos flaw be that he's compelled to steal pants?" Or, "I think Chimestry 3 will be a fantastic way to fuck with our Toreador Face when he's talking with the prince, I'll make an illusion that he has no pants! Fuck, I'm clever." Or, "Can I make a Lasombra Antitribu who has no real ambitions and is a total yes-man who ghouls his grand-mama for her sweet cooking? Also, can I take the 'Digest Food' Merit so there's no real downside at all to my embrace, not even losing the ability to eat my family's cooking?" Maybe the real question is: How often can a Prince call a blood hunt?

Why is it always a vampfag that starts shit

But it isn't.

It's always you guys being shit.

The Mage vs. Vampire arguments have endured since Mage was released in the mid-1990's, through multiple editions and even a new setting with the nWOD.

At this point, who started it is immaterial. It just needs to end.

It was merely a test. I never thought so many retards would take the bait

1. Demons the Fallen's Elohim might not even exist anymore (it's so in two out of three Judgement scenarios)
2. Powerful Earthbound are arguably stronger than the Elohim (at least with the given Elohim mechanics in ToJ) because the Elohim weren't written as having Lore Mastery.

I know nothing of Demon other then what I learned from skimming the core book, but early Angels are hinted to be world-shaping beings who exist in several Layers of reality and can pass between them at will, and whose abilities have all these mythic connotations.

Do any canon Angels [Fallen, Earthbound, or Elohim] have anything like that mechanically? Or does their fluff just not find mechanical expression anywhere?

elohim in their prime molded the multiverse, user

A lot of fluff capabilities aren't translated into mechanics.

>Luckily, in nWOD/CofD, vampires are no longer a sacred cow, and cannot depend on developer fiat to save their undead asses.

This is why Masquerade players hate nuWoD so much

>nothing's changed

don't bother with doing anything in person. Summon wraiths and send them, they're better at fucking shit up than you are and without a necromancer the enemy can't counter them at all.
Which tactics you use will have to depend on which powers the ghosts you deal with have.

Specifically? No. I won't choose one unless its a perfect fit for the character. Mainly I'm asking if there's one that will fit the character that I might have overlooked (though I don't think there is).

Awwwww, fagness I miss you

Because there is utterly no point or reason to have that discussion? A newly awakened mage is H O P E L E S S and a master mage can and should be awesome.

If you want mages weaker overall, simply rule that your average 'mage' is a proximus and your higher end 'mage' is a starting PC type with gnosis 1.

>A newly awakened mage is H O P E L E S S

hay gais let me ruin the chronicle by using the amazing time 1

I meant nwod.

Moloch kolduns are very rare and only exist for the last century are so.

No one should really deny that a high tier ante is better than an earthbound, but as far as something that is playable (despite that it is a SUPREMELY unpleasant experience for everyone involved) they are definitely high end PCs.

Black Hand does do a decent job putting vamps on top. However, most vamps, even elder ones, are G A R B A G O

>because the Elohim weren't written as having Lore Mastery.

ToJ Angels definitely have Mastery and Hoard.

Good luck

its not like we ned a plot or anything, rite

If you need the plot to go your way as ST, run mortals.

As written in ToJ they really don't unless you houserule it. As a matter of fact they have a described way to enhance their lore's potency and range but it's much weaker than actual Lore Mastery.

Ah good catch. I would houserule them to function them at hoard 3, 4, and 5, and mastery 0, 1, and 2 for sake of consistency with earthbound.

I ASSUME they're supposed to have methuselah/earthbound tier fuel pools, and not really supposed to be rolling 25-60 dice and making the first earthbound to eat one get a 5x increase of faith (and the second to get a 2x increase).

But Earthbound are not meant to be playable either, in fact if you read the Earthbound book they're presented to be implemented as NPC antagonists. In fact if you're a demon and become earthbound eventually your Torment will inevitably hit 10 at that point you're required to hand your sheet to the ST by the book.

Most of everything is garbage, according to a Mage writer 85% of all Mages have Arete distributed between 1-3, only 13% have Arete 4 and only 1.9% have Arete 5.

Diverting from the vampfag vs magefag wars, lets have a talk about editions.

Why does Revised not include any rules for Spirit Traits? Why do I have to rely on the piss poor traits presented in M20 or 2E?

>SATYROS

Satyros?

>But Earthbound are not meant to be playable either,

I don't see where that is stated. Of course torment 10 fallen are not playable, its not clear wtf that would even mean (just explode?). A PC can become a quasi-earthbound the first session anyway.

PCs are better suited to minimize torment and then become a quasi-earthbound, so they can get a mix of benefits of both. They are 'inevitably' going to hit torment 10, but it takes 10x as long as a vampire on a fairly permissive road does to hit road 0, so its not necessarily a big deal. They miss out, irrevocably, on the true name stuff, but oh well.

So I would say that, in analogy, archdukes are on par with antediluvians (at least, it is vaguely implied they're more powerful than normal earthbound), chargen-as-earthbound are on par with methuselahs, and fallen demi-earthbound would be "pretenders" (low gen neonates from Elysium) in this analogy.

>being this new

Could you enlighten me, user?

Nah

>being this new

Kay

God owod is such a fucking mess. With all these planet confuming antediluvians and universe destroying archmages how are things even intact

It really makes you wonder how all these powerful splats were defeated by religious nuts with torches during the Burning Times.

>including the inexplicable absence of *any* Techno archmaster.

An inexplicable absence of """"any"""" Techno archmasters.

>le smug spirit technocrat archmage fess

Is it possible to fix the consensus using archmagic

yes, forces 9 of everyone must use google glasses to cast spells and forces 9 of all loyalist technocrats are now archmages

Forces 9 + Matter 9

also make sure its a force that is not a force you can't counter because it technically doesn't exist

Not saying you can't pull that off, but you're going to have to word it better.

>Is it possible to fix the consensus
Cameras small enough to be placed into everyday objects used to be Technocrat toy, but so much tech as of 2012 onwards has become part of the consensus, like a lot of tech that they had.

Troubleshooting networking problems IS however magic. And no one can tell you otherwise. Think about it.

...

I should say, make the "force that is not a force but is xDDDD" archmagify you in proportion to the orthodoxy of your technocrat ways.

*I mostly stipulate technocrat because tradition mages murder each other too much and have too variant of paradigms for a "pan tradition loyalist archmage" to make any sense

>word it better

just spend a half hour wording it with legalese and win at mage, the end