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So, has anyone ever come up with a reasonable nerf for the High Fashion armours to make them not best-in-slot? I was considering making them add/require a lifestyle quality that costs a bunch of money for tailoring and repair of the outfit for anyone below High/Luxury, but I'm not sure how that would work out.

>So, has anyone ever come up with a reasonable nerf for the High Fashion armours to make them not best-in-slot?
They aren't?

Change Ruthenium Polymere to electrochromatic Clothing and disallow ST stacking with coats and all problems are gone.

This thing is literally the only piece of High Fashion Armour that would be worth picking over the other specialised armors.

Sleeping Tiger is literally the only meme armor among HFAC yeah, same way the Raiden is a known meme gun.

RPC, especially low rating, still ain't that good.

And Custom Fit already is that extra tailoring fee.

>I was considering making them add/require a lifestyle quality that costs a bunch of money for tailoring and repair of the outfit for anyone below High/Luxury

youtube.com/watch?v=MUpfO4x8Ch8

Maybe make it that every X cumulative damage reduce the modifier for the Limit by 1, up to the negative maximum
So if X is 3, you have an Armanté suit and take 3P damage the Limit modifier drops to +1.
Another 3P and it drops to +0
Another 3P and it drops to -1
Another 3P and it drops to -2, which is the lowest it can be.
Maybe make the cost to repair it dependent on how much damage it already took. And maybe treat S damage as 1/2 for this (so you only reduce the modifier by 1 when you take 6S)

Pretty sure the social modifier was not the issue here.

Nah, ST is flat-out to good for its price. The whole package combined is just ridiculous.

Literally same as the Raiden. They're both memes that should be NPC only, but the rest of HFAC is alright.

Why is the raiden so good ?
Except rules of nature of course.

>NPC only,
>giving NPCs equipment you don't want your PCs to get hold of

Ares Alpha with more bullets, less recoil (hue) and more accuracy.
It's the minmax cannon.

>less recoil compensation
It's not like RC matters and it's not like it's hard to boost RC.

Basically has everything you would want already built in and better stats to boot, for a fine price and fine availability. There is basically no reason to get any other rifle if you can get a Raiden.

Exactly. There's even a boost you can get that makes you better whenever you fire after Taking Aim more than aiming already does, so you can gimmick not having recoil even more.

>Advanced Safety System(Explosive Self Destruct)

Nah, ST is objectively superior to basically anything in its class, from a mechanical point of view.
The Raiden?
I'd rather take an Alpha.

I feel like you overvalue RPC on a non-full body armor still here. There's definitely still a certain class of characters that would consider ST, and not literally everyone.

Custom Fit (Stack) generally puts them on par with security armour for less money, more capacity and an availability that doesn't scream 'We're about to start a riot'.
Zoe Executive Suite and Ares Big Game Hunter are actually the more egregious standouts. ST's major benefit stops working if you're wearing the coat over the top of it anyway.
I really want Shadowrun to have a Coin economy like john Wick's. Buggered if I can figure out how to implement it aside from abstracting it all out like Blades in the Dark does though.

Big Game Hunter also makes you look like you're on an African Safari, which fits in about 1% of all places in Shadowrun, so so much for the whole looking inconspicuous thing. Executive Suite I assume you mean because Zoe also makes the Second Skin?

It still lacks a lot of advantages that real specialty armor has, like the obvious chem-seal capability.

Executive Suit lacks the +1 Dice and Social limit is hardly ever an issue for anybody. The only point one could make is that its a bit to cheap for having 12 Armor + small bonus addons.

Big Game Hunter is pretty good, but the description makes it somewhere alright.
Though speaking from ingame logic, it really shouldn't offer that level of protection for this price without being restrictive.

>Though speaking from ingame logic, it really shouldn't offer that level of protection for this price without being restrictive.
I figure thats because its not airtight like it would have to be for various enhancements. Less restrictive as a result, but less good against environmental hazards. If you look at the art, the thing clearly has a jacket with open sleeves and exposed hands.

>Custom Fit (Stack) generally puts them on par with security armour for less money, more capacity and an availability that doesn't scream 'We're about to start a riot'.

Also fits in everywhere.
Like you can wear it to social events and to the actual shootout, and in both cases you'd be doing better than everyone else.

Yeah, but it offers better armor than security armor, is not as restrictive AND is several thousands cheaper.
Big hole in ingame logic there.

Under ingame logic this thing also doesn't fit in in most places and would raise just as many eyebrows as security armor in most places, and maybe more in some when you can actually pass yourself off as security occasionally, but probably not as looking to hunt game in the local Renraku branch.

To be fair the coin system isn't really that consistent in John Wick anyway. A drink at the hotel bar and an AR-15 are both one coin each? How does that add up?

But the implied exclusivity of it does make it cool. In a cyberpunk environment you might want to make it a proprietary cryptocurrency instead of a physical coin.

So what's the general skill priority for an infiltrator? Something like perception > (assensing) > stealth > gymnastics > b&e skills > escape artist?

It's not a drink. It's info and access to the people in the bar. It's a 1 drink minimum.

Thing is, if Big Game Hunter Exists, why not dress your security Guards in it?
Significantly cheaper, offers a fuckton better protection, doesn't hinder their movement and if you stick your logo on it and chose some company-compliant colour patterns, it also doesn't stand out more than other security armor.

Depends on your definition of infiltrator and if youre mundane or awakened.

What do you actually want to do, specifically?

Because one gas grenade knocks out your entire security force then, whereas security armors & helmets can actually seal.

Do infiltration stuff.

I like form fitting body armor best, because it lets you dress however and still be armored

Social or Stealth?

Guys

Guys.

How's this houserule

>Maximum amount of armor you can wear before starting getting penalty is

5 + (STR+BOD) * 2

>Beyond that, each 2 points of armor give usual -1 penalty to REA and AGI

>can actually seal
but how many are actually sealed?
You usually don't bother with ChemSeals unless you have had bad experiences with or feel in danger or chemical warfare

6 Sneaking, 6 Gymnastics, 4-6 Locksmith, 4-6 Palming, 6 Perception, 4-6 Escape Artist (Contortionism). Those are minimums.

Unarmed to subdue and counter subdual. Survival (Urban), Free-Fall (Breakfall) to help with escapes. Pilot (Groundcraft) same.

Infiltration is still 90% gear that you need that either enhances these skills or lets you do a variety of things you will encounter or will have to counter.

If you cannot reach the minimums, don't make it. Stealth is not a gradual thing. Stealth is perfection or die.

>no semi-auto firemode
Aaaaand into the trash it goes.

I generally would welcome an armor rule that just limits how much armor you can have pre-penalites, and my personal idea for it would be (STR*2)+BOD and after that the penalties start.

I think yours goes way too high too easily, but I also wouldn't count stuff like armor from Bonelacing against my limit.

Also, hardware/software and all that jazz are useless if you have a miniwelder.

>b-but you can't just weld every lock open!
That's where you're wrong kiddo.

Thermite Stick.

I think "Big Game Hunter" is a lot less literal than the khakis and pith helmets I'm imagining, but even if it were, you could work with that as a corporate aesthetic.

There's a picture literally right next to it.

I thought my preliminary skill ranking was obviously tailored to physical infiltrating.

Oh, of course, bone lacing shouldn't count.

(STR * 2)+ BOD, I think, is too small. Like, "infiltrator wouldn't be able to wear his chameleon suit" small. Maybe it's for the better, but Shadowrun is lethal enough as is.

Also valid, though IIRC the miniwelder is refillable.
Don't have a comparison which one is more cost-effective

Infiltrators tend to have STR more than your average gunslinger. Unarmed, Climbing, etc.
Literally why are you ever touching the floor. Buy some goddamn gecko gloves.

>using semi-auto
>ever

Oh boy, the select-fire sperglord is back

You are talking skill ranks when skill pools are the important thing.

I know what the important skills are, and what gear I roughly need (and what I don't as an adept), but what I'm not so sure about is whether I should drop a rank of imp reflexes to boost my perception up a bit from 15 (and assensing too).

The character is going to be a little girl, so I'm skipping on unarmed.

>the select-fire sperglord
wasn't he more SS than SA?

So, after a short calculation, 5 + (STR*2) + BOD seems okay.

>Bob the Wizard: 2 BOD, 3 STR
5+6+2=13
>Jeff the Frontline Gunner: 5 BOD, 5 STR
5+10+5=20
>Bunny the Murdertroll: 13 BOD, 10 STR
5+20+13=38

All respectable numbers for their roles.

>The character is going to be a little girl
don't

Kill yourself

For anybody else interested in building an infiltrator:
You can boost both visual and auditory perception tests by 2-3 without having to spend magic or essence. Earplugs and contacts/goggles with the respective enhancements are king.

>Skipping on Unarmed
Well, you're skipping the best way to do silent takedowns then and seriously lowering your defense.

>You are talking skill ranks when skill pools are the important thing.
Wasn't clear from you just putting a buncha skills in priority order. No, don't drop Imp. Reflexes. Take Hawkeye quality and Perceptive 1/2 quality. Perceptive also affects Matrix and Astral Perceptions, FYI.

>The character is going to be a little girl

>wasn't he more SS than SA?
Now only SD is missing for full Germania!

On a more serious note:
No, i don't think so. There was this sperglord that argued that no one would ever use burst fire or full auto and even tried to implement some house-rules to make it a shitty option, mechanical wise.

What I did for my secret coin society was that a "Coin" was worth roughly 40 thousand nuyen. Considering John Wick bought like, 3 guns, a ton of ammo, and the bullet proof armor with what, 2?

Which is ugly tho.

You forget that Bob the Murdertroll is going to have a shitton of bonuses from Lacing, being a troll, various cyberlimbs, that will take him way way way way way way beyond that. And I'd argue that 38 already is too high and starts leading to the gearing issues in terms of armaments.

Also who takes 2 BOD and not 3?

that's who I meant
but yeah, Single shot after single shot

Now you know how well it fits in.

I think a Coin is worth One Favor.

>Also who takes 2 BOD and not 3?
Good point. 14 is armor jacket + ballistic mask anyway, so it's good.

Honestly I don't think overall soak needs nerfing. rather armor system needs to be more streamlined and less stupid.

Iunno, I try to imagine a world where ADPS isn't everyones standard ammunition.

Keep in mind that you're setting limits for when penalties start, not how much armor these people can wear ever. If you want to be _heavily armored_ you should have penalties. If you want to be _moderately armored_ maybe you shouldn't.

Why?
And because you can get bonuses from audio/vision enhancements, you shouldn't take improved perception. Right. Makes about as much sense as saying "don't take specialisation for assault rifles, you have smart link". I can't believe I took your advice seriously.
I was thinking called shot sns/gel to make the takedowns if necessary. Grappling is a huge risk anyway, and is nowhere near silent (I do judo and bjj, so trust me on this).

That was my interpretaiton as well, but when it comes to equipment and goods, how much does "a favor" constitute? Also not all favors are equal.

Idk, the System is fine atm, imho.

Mechanically speaking, players will most often end up knocked-out from stun if they lose, as long as they don't fuck around with PR5 or 6 guys.
Thats a fine point, from a mechanics viewpoints.

>Iunno, I try to imagine a world where ADPS isn't everyones standard ammunition.
obligatory.

But yeah, the above formula can be bumped down to 3 or even 2 from 5.

This will make 6 and 9 soak armors actually wearable. By a tiny fraction of runners, but hey, wearable.

>I was thinking called shot sns/gel to make the takedowns if necessary
Called Shot SNS? Not really. Here's the secret: SnS, even if you use arrows/bolts so they're extra good, hit once. Grappling someone into subdual with your shock gloves and pressing them against your shock weave-clad chameleon suit hits twice, continously every turn, while you have a hand over their mouth and prevent them from acting and also works on people that get a defense roll.

Alternatively if you wanna go for the called shot on unaware shenanigans: Mono Garotte.

Grappling really isn't as huge a risk as you think if you're skilled in it. It's probably actually the most controlled form you can think of. The fact you're thinking about using a gun going by the fact you mentioned gel is much stupider.

That was sort of how I did it in my early mockups, but I ran into issues with how the party could split them up; one thing I quite liked about the concept was that it meant the players could handle huge sums of money without running into the narrative question of why they didn't just stop running. A bunch of Coin you can only use for stuff like buying new guns/gathering intel/hiring goons/whatever else and then a small amount on the side to pay for lifestyles and such suits the way I like the universe to work quite well.

>how much does "a favor" constitute? Also not all favors are equal.
That's the point. It's a favor from wherever or on whoever you use it. If its a gunrunner its guns and ammo, if its a streetbum its keeping an eye out. If its the hotel its room and board. Keeps the coins circulating and versatile and the actors diverse. Harder to trace, harder to understand from the outside.

>because you can get bonuses from audio/vision enhancements, you shouldn't take improved perception

Exactly.
Those PP are spent better elswhere, instead of getting marginally more dice in something you are already exceptionally good at.

"Diminishing returns", google it, you turd.

I do like taking the power that copies a single sensor though and use that to have Ultrasound from a non-technological source.

>don't take specialisation for assault rifles, you have smart link
a smartlink costs 2000, a image link costs 25, so a combo with some glasses costs 2125n„, add some wire to link them to your commlink and we get ~22k
A specialization costs 7 karma, which is equivalent to 14k

The smartlink+smartgun gives you +2ACC +2 dice
the specialization gives you +2 dice with Assault Rifles

Sounds like that guy knew what he was talking about, because nobody does use burst/cyclic in real life. Outside of support weapons that is.

He uses a handful of coins to buy his guns. I think having even a rough exchange rate kind of ruins the point. A Coin isn't worth any amount of money, it's worth 1 Coin. That's what makes it mysterious and cool.

If you're in need of the favor then it is worth the Coin.

You could make it strictly one "favor" per. A Coin will buy you any gun your supplier has available, for example, but two guns will cost you two Coins.

Keep in mind Internal vs. External Smartlink are also different in bonuses. Internal to you, not the gun, I mean.

Also not sure if Glasses can do smartlink? I think the smallest visual thing you can wear can't take it, but the medium and large can. But I can't remember if glasses are the smallest and then goggles are medium or if glasses are medium and goggles are large.

if you put it like that, yes, for that (STR * 2) + BOD makes sense.

>improved perception
Take enhanced perception instead.
Gives you a bonus point in assensing AND perception, it's amazing.
Get at least one point of combat sense and tell any would be assasin to fuck straigth off.

Get's hilarious with the psychometry metamagic.

Sure, thats a sound, considering the cost of ultrasound implants.
But its something different than spending your precious PP on single-skill dicepoints that can be gathered cheaper from elsewhere.
Don't forget a proper Totem.
Dog(e) would give some pretty useful stuff.

Perceptive I/II quality, seriously. Also Hawkeye.

You can fire again every pass, and on unaware opponents, you autohit. Afterwards you will likely have an easy time hitting them due to wound modifier and surprise.

Unless you're a nartaki, I don't see a way to immobilise and muffle someone at the same time. I'd at least fire off a couple of shots if someone suddenly started hugging me and covered my mouth.

Raven is extremely good for Traceless Walk. Never trigger pressure plates, and the best reduction to being heard in the game.

t. armchair faggot

Ever got deployed and had to clear a room?

Just take everything, Pick up a random piece of trash from the street and do all the legwork in a single roll by looking really hard at it.

SR is a system in which a professional motorbike driver is also a wonderful truck driver, in which one skill makes you capable of removing a spleen, diagnosing cancer and treating a cold, but also where you can be a professional sniper and be able to shoot a fly in total darkness, but not hit the broad side of a barn with a pistol
and of course a system in which a grenade under a tank will blow it to shreds

SR is not, was never and will probably never be realistic
but who cares

>You can fire again every pass, and on unaware opponents, you autohit. Afterwards you will likely have an easy time hitting them due to wound modifier and surprise.
Do you actually think leaving someone you just shot to have a turn where he isn't subdued is stealth? No. if he gets a turn where he isn't out cold and he isn't controlled you've failed and you're dead in 5 minutes.

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch?

Nah that's Psychometry. Great way to make the party feel useless.

And here's the thing about grappling in general: it ties you down to the situation. Mobility is life in any situation, and doubly so for an infiltrator which is cut away from backup.

I would never, ever even consider going close if I had any kind of an alternative.

Thing is it pretends to be by simply being to nitty gritty bullshitty.

Most new player assume that all those rules would actually DO something... except fighting our attempts at having fun.

Seeing is life. The better you are at seeing the threats, the less likely that you're going to die. Everything is secondary to perception. Every single thing.

>Also not sure if Glasses can do smartlink?
As long as it has the capacity what's the problem?
Even contacts can have Smartlink (and Image link), you just can't run it over cable

I called you a faggot armchair turd and i obviously was right about it.
Now come on, spout some more memes.

Grapple =/= Clinch. You're not tied down to it, and you're doing it to apply as much Stun as quickly as possible, faster than shooting would. Also again, if you want it that way: Mono Garotte.

>I would never, ever even consider going close if I had any kind of an alternative.
This, but not "going close" but "engaging at all". But when you engage, the stun grapple is real fucking solid. Ideally you never engage at all.

As i said, take perceptive 2, enhanced perception (at least 4 ranks), Max out intuition and Assensing&perception.
Take Psychometry as soon as you can.
But i'm pretty sure we surpassed sherlock holmes levels of autistic perception before the metamagic.

You seem to be inept at grasping the concept i told the other guy to look up.
Please be stupid somewhere else.

Iunno I feel like I've read something that said at least one of the wearable eye things wasn't suited to smartlinks.

>T. Retarded grunt who does things against doctrine
I train with cop firearms instructors.