/osrg/ - Old School Renaissance General

How do you do class progression, /osrg/? I ask because I've been thinking about these classes recently and how they've just been given sprinklings of bonuses every few levels and new abilities as they go instead of slow, gradual linear progression. Do you think this method is alright?

>Once per day per level reduce the damage of an incoming attack...
Dissociated

Evoker doesn't learn any spells? So their entire thing is blasting a worse magic missile a couple times a day?

Burglar doesn't get climbing or lockpicking?

>Edgelord
I approve of this.

>Hangman
Rubbish

>Volcano Priest
I kind of like it.

>Soulless
Kinda neat

I've seen four different versions of Sword & Wizardry, and I'd like to know which one I should go for.
>Core
>Complete
>White Box
>Continual Light

>What module have you gotten use out of that isn't from the B series? Ideally something we haven't talked to death or even heard of.
One (small) module I used to mention in here now and then ages ago is "The House of Rogat Demazien". It's just a wizard's house that PCs might like to burgle, it works great as a city drop-in, and it's easily adapted to be the home of whatever urban wizard PCs decide to burgle.

PDF related. Oh, by the way, it's written by Melan.

Core is Basic
Complete is Advanced.
White Box is somewhere between Basic and Original.
I've never heard of Continual Light.

Complete is the best dollar value. You can always play with less rules.

>I haven't even looked at N2. N1 seemed meh/dmpc enough that I forgot about the entire series. I'll check it out.
The Forest Oracle is, no joke, probably the worst TSR module. It's kind of flabbergasting how terrible it is.

Whenever you feel like a module is bad, pull out N2 and assure yourself that it could always be worse.

>A group of seven men approaches. They are following the road east, and are making good time, neither tarrying nor running. Their faces are expressionless. One is dressed as a cleric of some sort, and another is dressed as a traveling drummer. The others could be peasants or serfs going from one location to another for the harvest season. Each carries some sort of weapon. It is plain that they are not soldiers by their haphazard way of walking. They do not seem to be joking loudly or singing as they advance.

White Box is stripped down core OD&D (the little brown books).

Core is core OD&D plus the Greyhawk supplement. That is what Basic D&D is also based off of, so it's pretty similar.

Complete is OD&D with all the stuff, which is what AD&D is based off of, so they feel pretty similar.

Continual Light is something I hadn't previously heard of.

As for which one you should go with, you should grab them from the trove and look them over and see which one grabs your fancy. This should be a relatively easy decision because it's really a matter of how much complexity you want, and you ought to be able to size them up pretty well just by glancing over them.

ACKS has multiple classes for each race and a proficiency system (literally feats)

So is KotB good or bad? I though it was just a pile of monsters with a ”surprise, I’m the boss of this dungeon who you never heard about up until now” at the end.

It doesn't really have a plot, and if you really want to you could just waltz into the cultist hideout as the first thing you do in the module.
Really, it's just a whole bunch of monster lairs in close proximity with some degree of interaction (e.g. killing one of the orc chiefs has all the orcs in that lair migrate to the adjacent one, the goblins hire the ogre from his lair, etc.)

You might be thinking of the moathouse in Hommlet - it's got that problem to some degree.

But yes, IMHO it's pretty damn good. You need to be open for more episodic sandbox play, though - you're going to travel back and forth to the Caves of Chaos a lot.

It's good for its intended purpose, but that doesn't make it a must-play classic or anything.

B2's meant to explain to referees how to set up a campaign area, sort of handhold them through the basic principles of D&D. It deliberately doesn't have anything mindblowing in there, that would be counterproductive.

You completely ignored the question.

>Do you think this method is alright?
I remember this PDF!
I think a few of the ideas are alright, but many of them clearly presume, or at any rate need, the corresponding base class abilities if they're going to be anything near the regular D&D power level. I guess if you feel like the classes in Basic are too overpowered, you could use these as-written. I've never heard that complaint in my life, though.

I think every character should get something other than HP at every level

Something other than HP doesn't need to be "active abilities", though, for lack of a better term. LotFP, for example, has no "class abilities", but spellcasters get spells, fighters get attack bonus, and specialists get skill points. (Demihumans are the exception, though they get one skill that scales with level.)

I mean, I get it, it's nice to have cool abilities like in 5e. But I feel like it's hard to come up with that many different ones that still feel like they're tied to the game's fiction and not purely mechanical. Hence 5e's things like "the fencer who can only riposte X times a day, regardless of their exhaustion level".

It also gets players to pre-plan their character. They look at the whole 20 levels and start weighing options, theorycrafting, minmaxing. Then they start complaining about why their character can't do that thing that totally fits their concept. Then you introduce multiclassing and it all goes to fuck.

I really like that the shitty picture I made about the dumb argument we were having that one time about spell power continues to haunt board. I've even grown fond of the lameness of the "stone rock" bit.

>Something other than HP doesn't need to be "active abilities", though, for lack of a better term.
No one mentioned "active" abilities. It's just boring when the Fighter levels up and doesn't get better at fighting (THAC0 doesn't get better)

>I mean, I get it, it's nice to have cool abilities like in 5e.
Why are you bringing up 5e? Besides, the 5e Fighter has mostly passive abilities, especially if you go Champion. Rogue has ONE active ability at level 20.

>But I feel like it's hard to come up with that many different ones that still feel like they're tied to the game's fiction and not purely mechanical.
OSR games have a lot of disdociated mechanics.

>Hence 5e's things like "the fencer who can only riposte X times a day, regardless of their exhaustion level".
D&D is a resource management game, in TSR games you manage mostly gear and items, while in WotC you manage character resources (as the games focus more on the PCs).

>It also gets players to pre-plan their character. They look at the whole 20 levels and start weighing options, theorycrafting, minmaxing.
Only if they can customize their characters, which isn't possible in OSR

>Then they start complaining about why their character can't do that thing that totally fits their concept.
This can happen in every game

>Then you introduce multiclassing and it all goes to fuck.
TSR D&D has multiclassing too, it's just not a "point-buy like system" like WotC D&D does it

>Why are you bringing up 5e?
It's an example of a game with zero "dead levels" - you always get a feature, a new spell, or an ability score improvement/feat.

>Rogue has ONE active ability at level 20.
Rogue and Barbarian are good examples of classes with pretty much no dissociated abilities, IIRC. They dropped t he ball with the fighter.

>OSR games have a lot of disdociated mechanics.
Yeah, if you're going to bring up experience points, then no, it's not dissociated. You can explain to another character that you've gotten better at dungeoneering because you've been doing a lot of it. You can't explain to another character why you didn't parry in that important duel ("because I ran out!").

>in WotC you manage character resources (as the games focus more on the PCs).
Yes. Doesn't mean it doesn't break immersion.

>This can happen in every game
It will happen more if the other class has some kickass bullshit it gets at level 5.

>TSR D&D has multiclassing too
It's pretty much always badly executed.

>They dropped t he ball with the fighter.
Only the Battle Master has maneuvers and dissociate mechanics

>you're going to bring up experience points, then no, it's not dissociated.
Okay, you are retarded and this was discussed to death already

>You can't explain to another character why you didn't parry in that important duel ("because I ran out!").
You didn't get an opportunity to parry. And again, this is exclusively to one subclass, the Battle Master

>Okay, you are retarded and this was discussed to death already
They're still not dissociated, no matter how many fallacies are repeated to claim so

>You didn't get an opportunity to parry.
No, in-world that's something that's based on your luck, or the relative skill of the opponent. You could be parrying the best swordsmen in the realm all day and then suddenly be unable to do so to a shitty kobold. The player might be making decisions not to get into a fight because they're "out of parries" - but the character doesn't know that they're "out of opportunities" for the day. The character still thinks they're a hot shit swordsman. The player and characters' decisions are out of sync. That's dissociation.

Oh, and also
>You didn't get an opportunity to parry. And again, this is exclusively to one subclass, the Battle Master
Your argument can be either "it's not dissociated", or "it is, but it's only one subclass so it's not that bad". Not both at the same time.

Your argument was
>the Fighter has a lot of dissociated mechanics
I pointed out it's just one subclass

I used this table for fumbled attacks. Basically, if you roll a 1 (or 20 in case of a roll-under system) you need to find your material in this table and roll over the number listed. If you roll under Break, your weapon is done. If your material can bend and rolled above Break but under Bend it's unusable until straightened.

How compatible is Whitehack with actual OD&D monsters* and random treasures? At a first glance they seem not to be too dissimilar. But am I missing anything?

*AC is subject to recalculation obviously

How good is the labyrinth lord advanced edition companion at emualting AD&D

It's not actually AD&D

Is there anything important it's lacking?

>elves starting at such a high age
I hate this meme. The idea that elves are completely retarded and can't leave home until they are 135 years old like they are millennials on steroids, is just stupid. Elves are less focused than humans, sure. Yet they are constantly said to mature physically just as fast as humans, they just don't "choose" to leave until they are 100. Fuck that. A 100 year old elf, even if he trains at half the efficacy of a human, still has 50 years of training under his belt. An elf leaving home at that age should be level 4 or 5 just from that alone. Hell, most elves should be at least 7th level in my book. Dwarves less so, but even a dwarf should not be forty-fucking-one at the minimum for leaving home. If elves live so long why would they leave to go adventuring with 3 hp?

>once per day abilities
And into the trash they go. Cool ideas, though.

So I have a problem I would love some help with

I'm running a game similar to Final Fantasy Legend / SaGa 1 if you've ever played the game. If you haven't, in essence there is a tower that stretches to the heavens, within which contains portals to different lands, and at the top of which is literally heaven.

I've turned the top of the tower into "What the PC's desire" and the lands into "Planescape style portals to other planes/locatins".

The problem is 3 worlds in and I'm already running dry on ideas. Basically each plane contains a portal key to the next portal in the tower to allow the party to climb higher, problem is I'm already running low on ideas. They've been to a water based pirate world, Veins inspired underdark, Dark sun style desert kingdom, and I have a Gamma world based wasteland and a plane of air style place for them to go to in the future

Like I said though, I'm running out of ideas, it was idiotic of me to think I could make an entirely new plane every 3 or 4 sessions, and as such I plan on just running modules and disguising them as new planes

What are some suggestions?

A world of perpetual darkness where the sun was eaten by a giant snake, which can be seen in the black sky as a faint red glow. Vampires and other dark-dwellers run rampant on a world where light is a luxury.

A world completely covered in a single root-linked forest of impossibly tall banyan trees. Arboreal creatures everywhere, and entire civilizations that live and die never touching the ground.

a plane with secret agents and men with masks that hurt when they come off

How do you feel about muskets in an OSR game as an uncommon/rare option? Too unfitting for the tone?

The crystal desolation, a once verdant land that was transformed bit by bit by a spreading zone of crystal, killing off the flora and fauna that once prevailed. But all is not as dead as it seems. Some lifeforms have adapted to survive in the crystalline desert, and some silicon-based lifeforms have followed the spread of the crystal desolation.

A land where animals are non-motile growths of flesh that siphon off the nutrients of the land like plants (or maybe fungus) normally do, while plant-beings walk the land.

Alternately, if you don't want to be weird, just an endless forest of fungus, with giant mushrooms that fluoresce in vivid colors.

Could always use something like this or your own random generator.
seventhsanctum.com/generate.php?Genname=outerplane

As for ideas... Boreal Forest/Tundra, Plains where there are spires of obsidian coming out of the ground, plane with methane or oil seas...

Do want the LBB? White Box
Do you want LBB + Greyhawk? Core
Do you want proto-AD&D? Complete
Are your players kinda retarded? (Continual) Light

S&W Continual Light is the X to S&W Light's B

Psionics, rules for encounters, rules for exploration, rules to generate treasure, rules to generate dungeons, rules to generate hexes, comeliness, etc. B/X Advanced is closer to AD&D but even it falls short.

What's with all the interest in guns lately?

>Short Sword 1d6-1
>Two-Handed Sword 1d6+1
This triggers my autism. In a system where you already have strength modifying damage, I hate the idea of weapons with base damages that include -1 or +1. They should be the worse of 2 rolls and the better of two rolls.

I'm alright with them just being frequent as long as you don't start faffing about with subsystems for them. Just make them a reskinned crossbow with maybe some different stats, hell if I know.

>Psionics, rules for encounters, rules for exploration, rules to generate treasure, rules to generate dungeons, rules to generate hexes, comeliness, etc.
Most of that's in the core rules though, right? Well, not psionics (thankfully) or comeliness (which is an Unearthed Arcana thing anyway, right?).

And double the number of dice that needs to be rolled, and screw up the probabilities something fierce?

If you're going with +-1, the better alternative would just be to step the damage dice up/down.

>Most of that's in the core rules though, right?
If you mean the LL and not the AEC then yes.

I haven't been in the thread long. Is someone else asking?

Last(?) Thread someone was asking for gun rules.

You could just use the setting for Mechanical Dream (or one inspired by it).

>Characters reside in the world of the dual world of Kaïnas and Naakinis, a 30,000 mile disk lit by a sun-like orb called the Pendulum. This disk is surrounded by the Sofe, a 40-mile-tall wall of black ether that kills that few, if any, have ever returned from. Kaïnas (the rational world) and Naakinis (the mythic world) exist with overlapping topography and ecosystems. Flora and fauna of Kainas are scaled normally by real-world standards, while Naakinis exists on a much larger scale (such as the "Kioux" trees that reach many miles in height).

>The Pendulum spends roughly ten of each day's thirty hours beyond the Sofe, creating night-like darkness. During this time, a phenomenon called "The Dream" manifests, becoming stronger as less and less light permeates Kaïnas. The Dream is a fabulous and dangerous world that overlaps with reality. It is initially hazy and hallucinatory, becoming as solid as reality during the darkest parts of the night. Areas where the Pendulum does not shine are affected by permanent manifestations of the Dream.

>The Aran world is a separate existence, accessible only in places the Pendulums' light cannot reach (underground or deep underwater). It is fiercely primordial, rejecting inorganic matter and operating by rules entirely different from reality. The creatures inhabiting Aran are unpredictable and poorly understood.

>The vast majority of the setting's population depends on the weekly consumption of the orpee fruit to survive. Without orpee, a rapid and excruciating death is guaranteed. Orpee naturally concentrates a life-force called "eflow" that fuels life. The politics and economics of Kaïnas are primarily driven by the collection and distribution of orpee, as it is an absolute requirement for life.

Pic is setting overview. Game PDFs here, in case anybody is interested: mega.nz/#F!iwxRETYC!92YZNGq7TKlSeEFBCMOWYA

Shortswords are only for rogues who should be using daggers IMO anyway. Why even bother. Just make broadsword d8 or d10 and make dagger d4 and a regular sword a d6.

>And double the number of dice that needs to be rolled, and screw up the probabilities something fierce?
Oh no! Two dice! I mean, I hate dice pools and all, but rolling two dice and just seeing which one is higher shouldn't be a problem for anybody.

>If you're going with +-1, the better alternative would just be to step the damage dice up/down.
I think it's legitimate to want to restrict the game to only d6s and d20s.

What do you guys think of Bandits and Basilisks?
Specifically the ability scores section?

Would there be any big guys?

>kg
False OSR

What do you guys think about the way Sorcerors are run in Carcosa?
I don’t mean the edgy “you must rape and sacrifice 120 children to kill the Ooga Booga” rituals specifically. Rather, that Sorcerors are born with a limited number of innate abilities (psionics) and must learn and perform various rituals to gain more abilities.
Ive never liked the idea of magic being a normal thing you can read in a book or scroll and harness. I want it rare, mysterious, and sometimes costly.
How would you run them?

Never not remove imperial.

There's less than a 50% chance a given character will have any (positive) bonus at all. That seems a bit dull. The scale seems more appropriate for 4d6 drop low, or some other stat generation scheme that's more generous than flat 3d6.

>Oh no! Two dice! I mean, I hate dice pools and all, but rolling two dice and just seeing which one is higher shouldn't be a problem for anybody.
They're not even mathematically equal! For all it "triggers your autism", I'd have figured that you'd actually care about the damage difference and warped probabilities.

And if you're going to add damage numbers to it anyway (strength bonus, weapon bonus, magic bonus, etc.), well, rolling another die and remembering whether to take the highest of lowest (and then adding damage numbers to it) is more complicated than just adding the one number you've probably got precalculated anyhow.

I don't know, the only reason MU magic seems "normal" to us is that we've been playing these dumb games for ages. Reading some incantation from an old grimoire and causing an actual magic effect to happen is not really normal in the first place.

That being said, I sorta like the idea of Carcosan rituals. Again, not the "rape 1d20 kids" thing, but more how they are unique rituals tied to specific locations within the game world. You can't just summon Whosits with Summon Monster III, you have to harvest Tweedle Mushroom from the Dark Caves and leaves of Hurgle Oak from the Malwoods and then return to the Bingle Glade before the new moon.

>not the "rape 1d20 kids" thing
Yeah, that's way too swingy. "Rape 3d6 kids" would work much better.

This isn't the Olympics.

>They're not even mathematically equal!
To what? A different dice scheme you wouldn't be using? Does that really matter? It's not like 1d6+1 is the same as 1d8. I mean, the average is the same, but the range is different, just like it is with the better of two rolls (if you're rounding to the nearest 1/10 of a point, anyway).

> rolling another die and remembering whether to take the highest of lowest (and then adding damage numbers to it) is more complicated than just adding the one number you've probably got precalculated anyhow.
Having the different factors affect different things keeps them "pure" and makes each calculation easier. And I don't think that remembering whether your dagger gives you the better or worse of two dice rolls is any harder than remembering whether your 7 strength adds or subtracts 1 to/from your damage.

I kinda like the HP thing because my current brew is a -3 to +3 system (9-12. 13-15, 16-17, 18, etc) and I feel like it's just going to end up with flat modifier hp bloat (I have 3d6 straight down, then you get to switch 2 scores if you want. Although I'm considering "roll six sets of scores with 3d6 then pick the one you like best to make your character.")

I dunno, maybe 3d6 and arrange is better. I like the idea of stats in order but I worry that players will not like the characters they have and just get sick of the campaign.

I like the basic idea of magic in carcosa, incredibly powerful with rituals that take weeks of preparation, but like you said in the game they're mostly "Rape and kill 3000 children so you can take a peak at yog sotthoth and go insane", making the entire thing a excercise in futility (thematically appropriate but not fun for players).

I prefer having the rituals being more mystical than rapey, meditating at the top of mount olympus covered in the ungents from barbosa will allow you to learn the secrets of binding wounds kind of thing.

So are the contents in the alcoves in Barrowmaze supposed to be per alcove, or the sum of what's in all of the alcoves?

>maybe 3d6 and arrange is better
It's not. If players get to pick their scores, then you get stuff like, for example, pressuring the new person into playing a cleric because you need a healer. Or players consistently playing the exact same character. If you have 3d6 in order you don't get that.

Myself and another player want to play a more serious game (Not REALLY serious per se, just a little more actual RP and less oopsy poopsy slip on a bannana peel sell drugs to kids cuz its funny silliness), while the rest want to play a silly game

What should I do?

I have been playing LotFP with some friends for a bit, but I have noticed that the system doesn't seem to scale very well at higher levels. I am thinking of porting everything over to some other system that does level 5+ play better. I was thinking of ACKS because that system arouses me in more ways than one, but I am wondering what systems do level 5+ play decently.

I've never gotten any of this and I've never not played 4d6 drop lowest across several D&D editions. Are you sure you don't just have lousy players?

You CAN get that, but if you're playing with adults, that most likely will happen

What if your player wants to try a new class but consistently rolls high str / con and cant get the stay requirements for their class?

In Moldvay, what is discouraging all the party's fighters from buying plate mail after first session? It costs 60 gp, which unless you're using a silver standard or being extremely stingy with treasure, is a pretty laughable amount

Why wouldn't you want the Fighters to buy better armor?

What I mean is that the price is so low, it's a wonder why chain mail exists

Forgot pic

>things that make people reroll their lowest d12s
Without a 'keep highest' or 'keep lowest', wouldn't that do literally nothing?

Plate being easily available is intentional.

The reasons not to grab plate are related to encumbrance: it weighs more so you can carry less loot (and thus less XP), and in turn you also move slower (and can't run away from certain monsters).

Look at the monster list and consider which monsters with 9" movement you'd like to be able to flee from. (Or 90' or whatever Moldvay uses, I don't remember - the middle one, anyhow.)

It's beacause LoTFP is BD&D, which is explicitly for lower levels

If you want higher level play, go for AD&D or any appropriate clone (OSRIC / Hetors and Witchery / Astonishing swords and sorcery)

Sum.

>"roll six sets of scores with 3d6 then pick the one you like best to make your character."
That makes a huge difference. If you always picked the set with the highest total, your average score would be just over 12. That's much closer to the average of 4d6 drop low (12.24) than it is to the average of 3d6 (10.5). Hell, just taking the best of two sets raises your average from 10.5 to 11.18.

>after first session?
Pool money with an MU and get it the first session.
They'll say yes, you having it is the single best improvement to their own survivability they can afford.

>Sorcerors are born with a limited number of innate abilities (psionics) and must learn and perform various rituals to gain more abilities.
This isn't actually how they work in Carcosa though, Fighters have the same (very low) chance of rolling psionics at creation as Sorcerors do.

What are the benefits of running something like Basic Fantasy or S&W over just straight vanilla B/X? I've been reading up on all this OSR stuff and going through the trove, and most of the systems all mention B/X or AD&D, but that means nothing to me since I've never played any D&D before 5e, except once.

I'm tired of modern RPGs and how restricted I feel by skills/feats/pools of tokens that alter mechanics. So I'm looking into OSR stuff after playing a mostly homebrewed AD&D game at a con last year. At this point I'm mostly thinking of just running some short sessions with just the Basic book from B/X, then if I can get my friends into it making a B/X campaign without altering anything.

Also I assume there's no places that sell print on demand copies of b/x? Would like to track down a physical copy of books if I'm going to really run something.

>That being said, I sorta like the idea of Carcosan rituals. Again, not the "rape 1d20 kids" thing, but more how they are unique rituals tied to specific locations within the game world. You can't just summon Whosits with Summon Monster III, you have to harvest Tweedle Mushroom from the Dark Caves and leaves of Hurgle Oak from the Malwoods and then return to the Bingle Glade before the new moon.
Hard same, I've always wished someone would make up a hexcrawl area for just a completely normal medieval-fantasy setting but which integrated the same type of magic system.

They should bow down to the whims of the dice, of course. Give in on this and you all end up making sickrad builds for Pathfindxalted.

>What are the benefits of running something like Basic Fantasy or S&W over just straight vanilla B/X?
Aside from getting everything combined into a single book, it mostly comes down to tweaks. Basic Fantasy splits race and class and uses ascending AC. It also arranges spells alphabetically rather than arranging them by level. Actually, most retroclones seem to do that, and I really fucking hate it. S&W uses single category saving throws, and I think that's a marked improvement. Attached is a comparison between Labyrinth Lord (a pretty faithful clone of B/X) and B/X, itself.

Availability, mostly. Most OSR games also aren't exact 1:1 copies of old D&D editions, including their own house rules and the like. That being said, there is a POD option available for the Rules Cyclopedia, but that's jumping in the deep part of the pool if you're just starting out.

And here's how Basic Fantasy compares to Labyrinth Lord. You can tell how similar these games are by how nitpicky most of the differences are.

>Also I assume there's no places that sell print on demand copies of b/x? Would like to track down a physical copy of books if I'm going to really run something.
Not legally, I'm afraid. You can get PDFs at dmsguild, but the only Basic they have in print is the Rules Cyclopedia ($25 for softcover, $30 for hardcover).

eBay has some sellers, though, if you're willing to buy used. Be careful that you aren't scammed, though.

>Basic Fantasy
Ascending AC and race-and-class.

>S&W
Nothing, it's just got a lot of compatible material because it's one of the big-name retroclones

>I assume there's no places that sell print on demand copies of b/x?
Why not just print the PDFs and put them in a binder?

Don't run Basic Fantasy, it's utter shit

S&W is OD&D + all supplements with a simplified saving throw / AC system