Hello Veeky Forums As many of you may know, there exists a third-party book for third edition D&D that contains many creatures of challenge rating far above what would ever be expected to be in a campaign. The capstone of this book is the Neutronium Golem. It has over 1 million hit points, and a challenge rating of 9721. What a specific figure. It made me wonder: what exactly would a level 9721 fighter look like?
I set to work, first calculating hit dice, number of feats, ability score improvements, and the like. Default D&D 3.5 assumptions assume you will only put your ASIs toward your main stat (Str for fighters, Int for wizards) but I saw no good reason to do that. This fighter would have 2405 ability score improvements, after all. I put 2005 of them into Strength, and split the remaining 400 between Dex and Con.
Without any magical enhancements, this fighter has 1,045,012 hit points. He has a base (unarmored) AC of 111. With a mundane greatsword, he swings four times at +5876, +5871, +5866, and +5861 for 2d6+1511 damage. I'm not sure what the limit on Power Attack is but assuming epic attack bonus counts as part of base attack, this guy would easily be dealing out thousands of points of damage to this neutronium golem per round, simply by dropping his attack bonus to almost nothing and giving himself an additional +9600 damage per swing.
Also keep in mind that this fighter has 4861 fighter bonus feats and 3242 regular feats. Now fortunately the Epic Level Handbook had epic prowess for +1 attack that infinitely stacks. However the immortals handbook also has a feat that gives you flat +2 melee damage and can be taken forever (assuming you are of epic level). So assuming this character takes that, say, 3242 times, he will have another ~6500 damage going against that golem. Taking the 1500 damage reduction of the golem into account that's still around 15000 damage per swing, or 60,000 per round assuming all attacks hit. This means a party of four of these fighters could, barring this guy's special abilities, put a quarter million damage into him each turn. Sure, the golem can hit back and take off a quarter of their hit points, but it will be dead in four to eight rounds and probably will only kill one or two of the fighters (who can be effortlessly resurrected by a cleric of that level).
Again, this is without magical gear. I have yet to find a good formula for wealth-by-level because the table provided in the DMG is all over the place and the epic level handbook does not provide a wealth by level table. Thus I would be forced to take a graphing calculator and plot a curve of best fit for the 1-20 values, even though they likely work differently for epic level (there is a pretty discrete bar once you hit 21st level, where the rules start to work differently).
That said, this fighter still has Str 2020 (+1005), Dex 213 (+101), Con 214 (+102), Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. His hit dice are 9721d10+991542. He has over 1 million hit points. His saves are Fortitude +4964, Reflex +4957, Will +4857. And he has over 8000 total feats. After a point he would just be listing out the same feat, taken hundreds of times.
Henry Hall
Given that 3.5 assumes 13.333 encounters per level-up, this character will have had to defeat 129,613 encounters to reach the level that he is at. He would have had to amass a staggering 47 billion (47,244,060,000 to be exact) experience points. It would require 1,246 years to play a campaign up to this level (assuming weekly sessions, and roughly 2 encounters per session). If you wanted to play this character within a lifetime you would need to complete roughly 41 combat encounters of appropriate level each session.
So yeah. that's your level 9000 fighter Veeky Forums.
Thoughts?
Leo Stewart
And a wizard of the same level STILL makes him useless.
Connor Morgan
Hilarious and original comment. We get a great OP with theory crafting and statistics and you respond with an undead meme. You don't even play pnp games.
Josiah Myers
>martialfag detected
Joseph Price
The DMG wealth guidelines are weird, but the best fit from levels 1 to 40 seems to be an exponential curve. (Look it up on giantitp; they've done the math.) Because the enhancements of magic items scale quadratically, this means that the +numbers from magic items should dwarf those from raw character power alone. The solution would be to provide an explicit quadratic wealth scaling in the Immortals Handbook, but sadly, they didn't.
It's such a gonzo supplement. I wish they'd finished it.
Jordan Collins
Build a wizard using the immortals supplement and post it. Give details on the saves against his spells, his ecl, how many spells he can cast etc etc. Be sure to give some interesting trivia like how large of a demiplane he could create.
Jace Rivera
Now make a 9001 level fighter! But srsly, cool shit, OP. I remember reading how someone made a bitch basic warrior type from the IH rules, and could basically solo the neutron golem fairly easily with minimal optimizing.
Brody Myers
I honestly don't even know how to begin calculating a wizard of that level. Well, actually, I do. There are two options here: figure out the Spellcraft modifier such a wizard would have and add 10 to it to figure out the max DC of epic spell he could create and unleash on this creature, or just take Multispell about 40 times and be able to cast 40+ spells per round (with other feats he can easily get spell slots that let him quicken 9th level spells, and each instance of Multispell feat lets him cast an additional spell each round). Now unfortunately this neutronium golem has immunity to magic but I'm sure we can find a spell that doesn't allow spell resistance that can ruin this fucker's day. He has insane saving throws but a 1 in a 1 when it comes to saves. Throw 40 of them at him in a round and he'll be pretty likely to roll a 1 (87% chance he'll fail at least one of them).
If not, I'm sure we can come up with something else. Unfortunately this guy has a flat immunity to magic and a lot of the epic spell seeds that would be good at effecting him, allow spell resistance. I can't find a modifier that takes that away, except that dire winter (based off of a variant of the energy seed) radiates an aura of ongoing damage and does not allow spell resistance. However in the base spell it does not say where it allows that. So if we can find a good way to hurt him that doesn't allow spell resistance (maybe something akin to an epic Kelgore's firebolt) and boost it up to DC 10954 (a 9721st level wizard will have +9724 from skill ranks, +1205 from Intelligence, +13 from skill focus and epic skill focus, and +2 from Magical Aptitude. Plus 10 cause you can take 10 on spellcraft to research an Epic spell).
So let's try buffing dire winter.
Blake Wright
Don't have to. You may call it a meme, but everyone knows its true.
Kevin Phillips
OP is taking your challenge up, shitposter, because you are too much a bitch to do it yourself.
Ryder Allen
OP is doing it for you because you obviously never even played the game, you pathetic faggot. Kill yourself.
Jacob Lee
Shut up. You've never played the game like this either. No one has. Not even the guy who made these retarded handbooks has. They're purely thought experiments.
Elijah Gutierrez
>You may call it a meme, but everyone knows its true. >prove it >"S-shut up..." Brainlet.
Lincoln Gray
>URR HURR DURR YOU DON'T PLAY TEH GAYME! >Neither do you >B-b-b-brainlet! Yeah alright.
Grayson Russell
Still waiting for those proofs, kid. If everyone knows it's true it should be easy to prove. What's the problem?
Gabriel Rogers
He said, still without bothering to provide any evidence for his claim, while another person entirely gets to work.
Neck yourself or at the very least fuck off.
Michael Long
Honest question: what kind of weapons would you be using at that point? After a certain point I'd have to assume that even legendary +8 weapons of smashy smashy would be pretty mundane compared to what a smith of your level could make.
Xavier Parker
I know casters are better than martials. That is entirely besides the point, I am not positing otherwise. The real tragedy is I like ridiculous math theory crafting, which OP, bless him, provided for free.
And here's you, the normie memer who has never played a pnp game in his life. meming the first low-hanging, dead meme he has seen posted a thousand times. I was so disgusted I called you a faggot. Now post a level 9000 wizard and give me a big fucking number right now or I'm going to go into the astral plane and slap your soul back to hell.
Jaxon Butler
IHB provides rules for post-epic weapons made of stuff like Orichalcum (apparently a bronze-like metal in white dwarfs) and Neutronium, along with alloys of such materials with less-dense matter. There are also, like, a *lot* of cool anime swords in the book. Among them, a -50 cursed sword. -50, not +50. It's damage reduces your HP forever.
Asher Martin
Okay so Dire Winter takes 1 minute to cast but that's bullshit so let's soak the +20 DC increase, that's 339. Now it says in the seed that you can increased damage by 1d6 per +2 DC. So if we just focus fire damage (the base spell is pretty strong in other regards, particularly the fact that it is essentially "conjuring" energy rather than evoking it, which sounds wanky but it's a clever way to get by spell resistance) so we could change the energy type to something the golem's not immune to, then buff this baby up. DC 319 leaves us with 10625 DC points to play with. So let's set aside those extra 25 for some utility thing (I dunno, maybe a slightly longer duration) and let this baby do an extra 5000d6 per round for the next 20 hours. Now, the golem can move at the speed of light but if he wants to kill the party he's going to have to move back into that aura. Also the caster can make this centered on him for +20-ish DC, so basically if the golem wants to melee attack him, it's gonna have to take damage. Roughly 17500 per round. Which isn't that much, unfortunately.
Kinetic control would be an interesting option if the wizard could actually survive a punch from the golem. He could "absorb" 5 + 15 points per +30 DC of damage and then reflect it back on the golem with a touch attack (which would pretty much auto-hit since the wizard would have a roughly +4000 to hit) for a ton of damage immune to spell resist. Damage isn't really the way to go unfortunately but with the immunity to magic it's hard to come up with alternatives.
However we do have another option from the immortals handbook (which is fair game for this IMO).
>U NO PLAY MUH MAFF GAYME REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Again, you don't play this bullshit either. You literally can't. This retarded golem can punch you for 40960d10 damage. Fucking roll that. I dare you. No, fuck off, I'll do it for you.
Nicholas Young
Oh wait, shit, you LITERALLY FUCKING CAN'T ROLL THAT MANY GODDAMN DICE. Veeky Forums's shitty roller can't handle it, but that's not a big surprise. Anydice crashes when you try to do it. Roll20 sure as hell can't either. There's not a dice roller on the planet that can handle upwards of 40 thousand dice rolls. Which means you have to do it manually, so you either have a fuckton of dice or a longass time on your hands to rolle the damage for a single attack in a single round of combat. Eat a million dicks, don't even pretend to play this bullshit.
Cameron Sanders
Ahh here is what I was looking for. KILOTON. Great spell that DOESN'T allow for spell resistance. So it will work on our golem. I don't see this little bastard being immune to fire damage, so let's start pushing that up. We don't really need the range or radius but that's okay, the wizard can atom-bomb this bastard from afar then teleport the fighters in to finish the job: all in the same round, more than likely, with the Multispell feat. Unfortunately I don't think there's a way to quicken epic spells.... oh wait. Quickened spell for +28. Says "limit one quickened action per round" even though Multispell denies this... and it's not technically being enhanced by the Quicken Spell feat so I'm gonna say we're only gonna get 2 of these atom bombs per round. But that's okay, let's put it on anyways, that brings our spell DC up to a nice 407. So we have 10547 points left to buff up the damage. Still the energy seed and if you look at the derivation for the DC you'll notice +60 DC for +30d6 damage so let's go with that and add an extra 5000d6 fire damage. Or, if we want to go for the SoD option I'm pretty sure we could just give the disintegrate effect a +5000 to its DC, which by itself will be out of reach for a neutronium golem unless it rolls a 20. Seeing as the thing has over 1 million hit points, this might be a better option.
So yeah, bye bye Neutronium golem. Meet: the utterly insane brokenness of 3.5 epic spellcasting.
David Cox
Pathetic.
Jaxon Powell
That's not actually rolling all the dice though. It's calculating averages and giving you a random result between those numbers, making certain results impossible to get. And in stupid numbers games like this, those certain results can be fucking important.
Hudson Harris
You don't say.
Joseph Reyes
Dude, stop. You keeping getting btfo'd every time you post, it's getting sad.
Levi Young
That's not fourty thousand dice. You can't fool me.
Colton Price
I see you have completely shifted away from your martial/wizard dichotomy and are now focusing on how this these dice rolls are unfeasible (as well as abdicating the challenge to build a wizard). And the unfeasibility of the rolls proves I don't play this game? Brainlet, let me spell this out for you one more time- I am here for the loony theory crafting, because I am never going to run an immortals game. You are a degenerate normie meming neopet motherfucker.
Connor Perez
Oh, and let me be clear: I'm pretty sure they screwed up making Kiloton because I still can't find anything in the rules to justify taking the spell resistance away. But then, I can't find it for Dire Winter either. And there's not any good seed for making it a conjuration damage spell instead of evocation. Nor is there a good precendent for an ad-hoc DC increase for something like Slay to apply to a golem. But needless to say, as a level 9721 wizard you will likely have ways around this. I mean, I'm just doing huge numbers here, but the game expands dramatically in scope in even just 10 levels. By level 9000, what are you even fighting anymore? Neutronium golems are controlled by time lords, which are.... what? Our wizard could also summon something of up to CR 5467 from any creature type, with a summon seed spell and maxing out his DC (this is from the epic level handbook base seed spell Summon which has base DC 14, allows base CR 2 and +1 CR per +2 DC, and for +10 DC you can expand to allow you to summon a different creature type than outsider). Our wizard could easily summon some of pic related (he could summon one for DC 2156, then quadruple that DC to summon 2 more (x2 for each additional creature summoned) and have 3 of them for a DC 8624 spell).
These guys can easily hit the neutronium golem and easily burst its DR but they aren't gonna be doing a lot of damage, they are better for occupying the neutronium golem (who can pretty much one shot these guys) while the wizard does other things.
Justin Gonzalez
So you admit you don't play either? That makes your arguments invalid.
I already closed it so I didn't save the previous roll history, because I didn't think you'll insist on being that retarded. Here's 3 new rolls in pastebin just for you. Now fuck off.
I can taste your salty tears of denial from the other side of the globe, child.
Ethan Jones
I would just throw the Shadow Apocalypse at it. The golem has a strength of only 502, meaning that you would need on average 168 shadows to deal enough Strength damage to kill it. That is TRIVIAL for a Wizard who has 8th level spell slots. In fact, I would throw several thousand shadows, just in case.
Jeremiah Ross
What of the other feats? What are some fighter bonus feats and pre-epic feats that would have any effect at all in this encounter? Something for negating DR? Would Mage Slayer work on its spell-like abilities?
Ryder Ortiz
Hey, that thing only has 60ft darkvision.
Brayden Foster
Well I have just calculated a shitty quadratic regression (and I probably meant to do exponential) for wealth by level. I got something like 12,701,060.3x squared plus -1,169,174.356x plus 29,623.7753 for the formula. It's probably incredibly inaccurate but let's go for it because I have more reliable numbers for the actual equipment costs.
A very rough calculation gives me 1.2 quadrillion (1.2x10^15) gold pieces. If we go by standard 3.5 prices where P is price and X is enhancement bonus, the price for armor is P=(X^2) * 1000 and weapons are P = (2(x^2)) * 1000. So let's set aside 400 trillion for armor and 800 trillion for sword. This leaves us with a sword whose enhancement bonus is 800 trillion divided by 2 divided by 1000 so 400 billion. Which we can then take the square root for sword enhancement bonus which is 632455.
This sword is a +632455 greatsword that deals out enough damage in one hit to shave off half the neutronium golem's hp.
I hope I did the math wrong somewhere in there. I think 4e and 5e had the right idea making level hard-cap at some point. Cause this is just insane.....
Asher Ross
What book is that from? The golem has some pretty intense damage / kill auras that would be difficult to get around and constructs are immune to ability damage or drain if I remember but I am curious where that spell is from besides.
Ryder Murphy
Time lords are like multiverses.
What am I arguing, normie-san? That immortals is fun, that you're a faggot, or that both bring me great joy?
Angel Brooks
>Gets called on his ruse >NUH UH UR S-S-SALTY C'mon now, this is embarrassing.
Andrew Williams
I'm sure Upper_Krust says that the CR of the golem was way overcalculated and it's supposed to be more like ~750 or something.
Austin Ortiz
At least he's bumping the thread, but I have to say this is one of the lamest trolls I have ever witnessed.
Nicholas Lopez
All that power, and he still has no real options other than move and attack
Cameron Miller
>Thoughts I don't understand why you would take the time to work this out when you could either be doing more interesting math or doing this for a more interesting game (or class for that matter, CoDzilla would be infinitely more interesting to look at considering the fact that it actually has options), but at least it's something new in a sea of shitposts and generals.
Carson Turner
Shadow Apocalypse refers to using Create Greater Undead to make a Shadow, which you control, have that Shadow start killing people via Strength damage and creating more Shadow-spawn. Then you command your Shadow to do whatever.
You are right that golems are immune to ability damage, but I can do it with Incarnate Construct. Normally that spell offers both a save and SR, but since it's harmless, no checks are made.
Levi Price
What more interesting math could I be doing? What more interesting game could I be doing this math for? Why would I do this for CoDzilla? I already did it for the wizard above, and it was much easier to calculate a fighter.
Austin James
Why does he need more options? Just wondering. Especially if those options lead to the same result, with more complication.
Jackson Thomas
Interesting... awakening the golem then using Strength drain on it. I like it. Yeah you could probably have a swarm of shadows attack this guy but you'd need a way to make them immune to fire damage which would be a fair number of spell slots.
Luis Sanchez
So for the low, low cost of multiple solar systems worth of gold, you too can get a sword to bitch-slap golems made of stars with.
Grayson Morris
It's the same problem that dragonball has. The number keeps increasing, but it doesn't MEAN anything. The only difference meaningful between a level 20 fighter and a level 9000 fighter is that one hasa higher number and a lot more feats, which is nice but by level 20 you woulda got everything worthwhile. I do think this is all really cool, but it kinda cements the unfortunate difference between martials and casters.
Carter Howard
To add to that, I seem to remember casters getting the option to create their own epic spells, albeit with a rather high Spellcraft DC and DM approval. But when we start talking about a level where a +5000 to your Spellcraft check is trivial, it really just depends on DM approval. Even if your DM is a dick who shoots down 90% of your ideas, you still get infinitely more leeway in creating options for yourself than a Fighter could ever dream of.
Anthony Garcia
Yep.... welcome to post-level-100 D&D gameplay. It's fucking insane.
