Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

The Last Groovian edition.

Discuss the lore and story of the Warcraft franchise and its application in and around traditional games.

>Document compendium: Contains official (ex-canon) DnD 3.x variants and a fan made DnD 5e version! Also contains the official Warcraft Chronicles volumes 1 and 2.
drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B52pEESRLwfBM3V0Sm5NTlBITlk

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wads ur luggy do

What do you reckon a Lad's holiday with Khadgar would be like, where do you think he'd go?

tell me about mermaids in warcraft

Blade's Edge Mountains, Apexis Crystal gathering.

we all have user, though Sqeunucks will never do a remaster from it, Even Occuleth/Joshua/graham/Cap Diomedes/Erandur's VA can do justice as tony jay's replacement

youtube.com/watch?v=ubNqUyf0op0

They are called Naga and are evil

blacks have magma, reds have fire.

I don't know what chromatics could use? A combination of all five?

but i like happy and cute mermaids
are ther any happy an cute ones?

should we even have this thread?
it's monday

No. We shouldn't. OP is a fag. Probably a well-meaning fag, but a fag nonetheless.

Absolutely. Don't be autistic, there's no reason why it shouldn't exist on Monday.

>though Sqeunucks will never do a remaster from it
That's truly a shame. But in the case of N'zoth, and the recent emphasis on Void lore and its presentation as a necessary and fundamental force of reality, I think the Elder God's sermonizing attitude and justifications could be very fitting for an Old God. If N'zoth talked down to us about his necessity in the greater schemes of things, how we didn't understand or appreciate the gifts of the Void, squandered their gift of free will to be slaves to the Titans and the Light, and were blind to the higher truth, that could make an interesting Old God.

An if he's the Old God backing the Infinite Dragonflight, you can even have the timetravel aspect, and have him explain how he's been trying to correct history for our own good. Probably lying about it all the way.

Because you haven't been around for a while, newfag. This inevitably causes the death of the general.

Blues still breathe Frost because that's the power they had when they still were proto-dragons. That's their main breath, Arcane one is when they use it with magic.

I would say that Chromatics can breath whatever they want to at the time.
Nightmares and Infinite are merely corrupted Greens and Bronzes, so there is no dispute.

One needs to remember that proto-dragons are basically elemental beings that were not thrown into Elemental Prisons and gained flesh over time.

ur mum

>your campaign will NEVER have a Wizard this cool

>stupid handsome Raziel

N'zoth is corruption specialist, putting his tentacles in every case of corruption, even when he was not the origin of it, like sending Il'gynoth to the Nightmare, which was implied to be something caused by Y'Shaarj.

He also does a good job usurping religious institutions, like what he did to the Church of the Holy Light. That's why I want to see that kind of sermonizing justification that the Elder God does. Something people could actually be convinced is true. Seamlessly mixing truth and lies together, so it's unclear which is which. Like how Il'gynoth seems to refer to Yogg-Saron as "Your true creator", and seemingly refers to death as a "gift" while trying to kill you with "Still you fight? Still you refuse the gift?" and "Oblivion offers solace. Take the gift! Take it!", and how Xal'atath calls the Curse of Flesh the "blessing of flesh" instead.

I want N'zoth to take that angle to the extreme. Everything he does is for the betterment of all. Just trust him.

What is your favourite dragonflight?
Mine is the Blues. They feel the most like a proper race with a unique culture. Plus they have the most fun characters.

Would Blizzard ever release another tabletop?

They stopped doing that for a reason. Maybe FFG will persuade them to sell them the license.

Now that FFG is under the Asmodee banner it seems less likely; not to mention the WoW board game was mediocre at best
>tfw it's still on my list of grail games despite it being really bad Ameritrash

Or basically, I want N'zoth to be the sort of character who gets theorycrafters making new cosmology diagrams and stupid shit with every other line, and gets some people thinking he might be right. Maybe there is something to what he's saying.

And after he dies, there should very much turn out to be something to what he was saying.

The WoWrpg was a good.

this is whyt geedubs cut their contract with them?

I honestly doubt it, but I'm a fucking giant 3.5 fanboy, so I'd just like to see magusrogue release his Burning Crusade shit from when he was working on the game or something.
Honestly though, I just like the lore of base WoW and warcraft more than it + expansions

No, that's just GW being financial retards like they've always been.

Yeah it wasn't bad, the board games were just not great at all, the WoW one in particular was nothing but downtime and while the combat system was interesting and the character building was fun it was a horribly long slog.

Eh it could be, Asmodee has acquired a lot of the publishers who make the big sellers, especially with the Lookout/Mayfair buy last week. GW meanwhile has changed their direction in the last couple years; they told BGG the other day that the C&D letter was rescinded so people could put up fan produced content again; and they paired with Wizkids to do a new edition of FoD, meanwhile putting out some of those lighter board games again. Not saying they aren't still fuckwits, but they seem to have pulled their head partway out their ass

This gif sumarizes Maiev and Illidan's Relationship at its finest, mainly because blizzard put said jokes on HOTS about Tsundere Maiev

Also the best example of how comfy Servant x Service is

>Trips twice
>Implying he's not actually saying truth all the time, but people refused to listen due to listening and looking through a lens of Light

Sure. That's good too, but there'd still probably be bias in his presentation. As the final Old God, I just want him to be something truly memorable. A villain people look back at fondly in the years to come. I'm hoping that there will be certain oracles he can speak to him through, even if we don't immediately realize it's him when we start asking questions, and he can give us flavor lore from the Old God perspective instead of the usual Titan view of things. Perhaps Xal'zaix will prove to be one such being.

no

Bronze dragons were cool when they were still mysterious and aloof. Now, with Chromie, they have degenerated into a fucking meme as well

>mysterious and aloof
>before Chromie
Would that be leveling in Vanilla from 1-50? She was in Andorhol helping you kill Araj, and hanging out with the sculptor who made armor out of the carapace from Gyth.

hey, maybe he really liked the lore of those WC3 mobs that never talked or otherwise interacted with anything

no, weekends only since it will devolve into even more trash if it's kept for longer

Had a there ever been a breeding chart for which race combinations result in viable pregnancies?

I don't think Blizzard cares about anything other than introducing more godlike beings for raid content.

You have no proof of this assumption. The thread was immeasurably worse on Sunday than it was on Monday.

So I've been thinking on what decided on what powers each of the Titans have. It's clear that inherently Titans are Arcane beings, but they often have additional powers that are not related to Arcane at all, like Life powers of Eonar, implications that Aman'Thul can use Light (as he empowered Odyn), various elemental powers of almost all titans.

Things we know of Titans and their powers:
>Aman'Thul: Light (Odyn), "Storm" (Ra), Time (which belongs to Arcane anyway; Nozdormu)
>Eonar: Life (Alextrasza - Aspect of Life, Ysera - Emerald Dream, Freya - Keeper with Nature powers)
>Norgannon: Arcane (Loken with spells, Malygos with leylines), Magical Science (Mimiron who made most of titan tech on Azeroth, Forges of Will and Origination, Mechanognomes, and enchanted bindings that bound Neptulon in fight against him)
>Khaz'goroth: Fire (as shown on Antorus and in trinket that has power from him) & Earth (Archeadas, Neltharion)
>Golganneth: Air (lightning, Thorim, Antorus, Gift of Sky in Argus fight), Water (frosty winds, Hodir, Gift of Sea in Argus fight)
And here goes harder to figure out, as their powers were a bit muddled
>Aggramar: Arcane (Tyr exploded with Arcane energies), possible Spirit (good for making Gor, which was made from a mountain with 4 elements in him; traits of being Brave but also quite Naive when it came to believing Sargeras can be reasoned with are traits related to Spirit)
>Sargeras: unspecified, possible Decay (Efficient at killing demons, even if not permanently due to lack of intel, was managing to take a look into the Void and sensing void lords, Ruthlessly interrogated Nathrezim on the void-corrupted world; Efficient and Ruthless are traits related to Decay)
>Argus: Death (his powers are death-referenced, spiritual powers, his tortured rage created sha-like beings; might be caused by millenia of being used to revive demons, which lives to kill, which would have corrupted him as surely as having Old Gods could).

The devs literally came out and said, "It's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit," on the concept of interbreeding, so any of them can get pregnant from any other. They also said that the Worgen Curse doesn't pass genetically, so no retarded puppy-babies.

If the curse can be passed by a bite, or by drinking Worgen blood as shown in one quest, how the fuck does it not infect a baby in the womb?

Anyway, we know that Azeroth was absorbing Spirit from the world, which caused Elementals to gain form, and quite powerful on top of that, which means that a world-soul can drain Spirit from its world in order to grow.

We also know that Titans were born where particularly big shards of Light went to. Depending on the size of such a shard, different kinds of life could be awakened in the universe:
>Elemental Spirits that Shamans can communicate with; smallest shards
>Naaru, beings of Light; medium sized shards
>Titan world-souls, beings of Arcane; big shards
We know that all worlds have elemental spirits, even when a world is destroyed, like Outland, we also know that all worlds have leylines, world-souls or not, as proven by Draenor, which had several places where leylines converged (The Dark Portal, Temple of Karabor, Goria/Shattrath).
We also know that elements does not have to start in equal amounts, once again proven by Draenor, which had particularly high amounts of Spirit, which caused its wildlife to be particularly changing, powerful, and deadly (which led to Draenor being savage world, where strength is needed to survive; that of ability to fly) as in case of Rukhmar, Anzu, and Sethe, and which made plantlife into the most dangerous thing in the world with Sporemounds.
Now the fact that Sporemounds could absorb from the world not just Spirit, but also other elements, such as Water and Earth, and could potentially turn the world into a dead place with no life, even elemental one, suggest that potentially, a Titan world-soul could sustain itself not on the Spirit, but also on other Elements, leading to different set of powers upon awakening, which in turn could suggest how the surface of their planets looked like.
Aman'Thul has some Light powers because he was awakened first, which likely happened due to his shard of Light being The biggest of those that caused Titans.

Because fuck ERPers and the concept of "litters," that's why. Also, blah blah nature magic, blah blah druidic curse.

>implying Worgen supersoldiers aren’t superior babies
There is literally no reason why we should have regular humans when worgen exist AND have full control over their transformation with no significant weakness. They are flat out better humans in every way from a lore standpoint.

On a semi-related note, I suspect that Keepers designed titan-forged races of Azeroth based on vague memories inherited from the Titans that empowered them, which explains why certain shapes are shared among what different Keepers made (Hodir's Ice Giants and Thorim's Storm Giants share the shape with Stone Giants [and all of them initially were not made of flesh], both were empowered by Golganneth), Odyn sticking to one shape and regarding to it as the perfect one (he was obsessed with his metal vrykul, and was pretty arrogant in his ideas; probably based on original inhabitants of Aman'Thul), and why Highkeeper Ra made so many different races (Aman'Thul is the oldest and saw the highest amount of worlds). Loken didn't made anything original, just maybe made Fire Giants (which are not implied to be more than 2 anyway), which in turn made his Iron Army, which is titansteel-made previous designs with saronite runes slapped on it. Archaedas is responsible for Earthen, which could be based on original inhabitants of Khaz'goroth.

Because most humans aren't interested in being turned into furries? And the full control is a lie, worgen can't choose not to transform in combat, who know what other situations cause the transformation? Sex sounds like it should, considering what it does to body chemistry.

Reasonably speaking, fucking a Worgen should also transmit the curse.

My supposition at the moment is that the Arcane is the field that regulates the separation of Light and Shadow, which is why these "shards" you speak of exist in the first place. Leylines are residual energy currents that continue this separation and Spirit is an interaction between the Light and material elements that generates life.
If the neither the Old Gods had come to infect Azeroth, nor the Titans come to regulate the situation via the Well and the Emerald Dream, it's quite possible the World Soul would've siphoned all the Spirit into itself and be barren of life, with not even the Elementals having enough to exist. Maybe that's what the Naaru are, would-be Titans given birth by complete coalescence of Light to the point of being life-forbidding. Perhaps that's what we're being warned about in Legion?

good times. No (((lore))) that was changed every three expansions, just flexible models that animated you to think and speculate about the world. Better than that chart from chronicles

>Maiev "demon destroyer" Shadowsong
>Maiev "terror of Teldrassil" Shadowsong
>Maiev "blugeon the blood elf" Shadowsong
>Maiev "nuke the naga" Shadowsong
>Maiev "satyr slasher" Shadowsong
>Maiev "hang the highborn" Shadowsong
>Maiev "teldrassil's reckoning" Shadowsong
>Maiev "avatar of vengeance" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Putting the War in Warden" Shadowsong
>Maiev "If He's Fel Send Him To Hell" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Use my Glaive to Fill a Mass Grave" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Killdorei Kaldorei" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Send an Owl to kill the Wildfowl" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Race War for the Falcosaur" Shadowsong
>Maiev "If They've Got Horns Their Ass Gets Torn" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Berserker Rage at Every Mage" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Illidari Get a Helicopter Party" Shadowsong
>Maiev "the mage murdering maniac" Shadowsong
>Maiev "naga 'nihilator" Shadowsong
>Maiev "the Suramar strangler" Shadowsong
>Maiev "gotta catch them all" Shadowsong
>Maiev "furnaces for forsaken" Shadowsong
>Maiev "gas the goblin" Shadowsong
>Maiev "shank the shal'dorei" Shadowsong
>Maiev "harass the human" Shadowsong
>Maiev "indict Tyrande for treason" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Malfurions manslaughterer " Shadowsong

we know that orcs can mate with ogres and draenei, and that half-draenei-half-orcs are compatible with humans

wasn't she made up to be a villain in Wolfheart why cruelly slaughtered those poor Highborne? Jarod mentions some dark influence she was under, has it ever been explained what it was?

Also, Argus, unlike other Titan worlds, wasn't uplifted by Titans, but by the Naaru. Eredar are most likely a race that used to be Tabulk-based equivalent of Tauren, and only some of them were uplifted by Windchimes using Ata'mal Crystal.
>On Argus, we hunted powerful horned beasts like your Tauren for sport. Prove your might over this worthy adversary!

>Naaru probably uplifted Eredar for the sake of guiding them to the Light and gaining a Titan that could be fully Light-aligned
>Ata'mal crystal might have made it harder for Titans to find the world
>Argus was found only after Sargeras started his Burning Crusade, due to Thal'kiel and his Wakeners (including Archimonde) looking too far
>Archimonde knew from the start what he's agreeing to when Sargeras arrived, so he could easily be convincing Kil'jaeden that Velen's words of what Sargeras' offer really is is just Velen being worried for no reason
>Archimonde later became leader of Conservatory of the Arcane
You face Jarasum, Grand Vizier of the Conservatory!

>Maiev "holocaust the horde" Shadowsong
>Maiev "abolish the alliance" Shadowsong

It wasn't explained what it was and the implied tone of that dialogue was that it wasn't ever going to be explained or acknowledged again. Because it was hack writing.
That's the rules for Blizzard and I thought everyone already know this: if something happened in the past that they look back on and say "What the actual fuck were we thinking?" they'll do the easiest thing and only barely acknowledge it ever happened and hope people will move on.

its implied that she was under the effect of Gul'dan's Shadow Orb

hence its why Cordana was corrupted, in fact it would be Maiev, in the end someone dickslapped Kosak and removed it at the last hour

>Because it was hack writing.

Like everything else by Knaak.

Vince_Khadgar.webm

I disagree with you, and I consider this chart to be incorrect, even if just based on that the Life/Nature and Death are forces that undeniably exist in games since forever.

Also, I start to think that Naaru originally were not of the Light at all, but most likely Arcane, that appears to be the one force that can absorb other energies, which is suggested by Naaru life cycle and by the 3 ways of how Naaru can be brought back to Light in Netherlight Temple:
>Xal'atath can drain Shadow energies out of its Void God form, bringing it back to Light Naaru
>Light's Wrath can Holybomb it to Light, similarly to how Ashbringer's core was brought from Void to Light, suggesting it was a part of the Dark Star
>T'uure, Beacon of the Naaru can heal it back to Light
In itself, Naaru are inherently more dangerous in the long run to the creation than world-souls are, because Titans are not expected to wipe out all life in their growth process, while Naaru are expected to turn dark, with requiring significant energies to turn back to Light or through a very slow process.

Also, world having less Spirit is beneficial for Elementals gaining physical form.

>Asmodee

Bunch of fucking faggots. They should all fucking die, the cocksuckers.

Life is confirmed by Chronicles to be a cosmic force created by the Light interacting with physical material, it's not just your supposition. Similarly, Death is the result of the fact that all of reality is born from conflict between the Light and the Void; it is the Void's presence in reality which enables the cosmic force of Death and the eventual demise of all things that possess Life.

>Maiev is Cheburashka
Top. Kekkity. Kek.

Honestly, I'd probably redesign the chart if I wanted it to reflect the relations between powers better. Light and Void would be placed on a circle farther out, and I'd rotate the placement of Life, Death, Fel, and Arcane to put Life and Death directly in line with Light and Void, with Arcane on the left and Fel on the right. Equidistant between Light and Void.

You rang?
>As you have surely noticed, a slain demon leaves behind Nethershards, solidified residual energy from the Twisting Nether. I require a significant quantity of them for an experiment I'm conducting... 2500 shards, to be precise.
>Why are you looking at me like that? We've had this conversation before. I did the math.
>I need exactly 2500 shards. Fewer would be inadequate. More would be absurd.
>Don't question my methods. Go!
Progress
>Do you have the shards? I hope you kept an accurate count. If you counted wrong, I simply can't be held responsible for the consequences.
Completion
>It has been pointed out to me that I can, on occasion, get a bit carried away.
>This... might possibly have been one of those times.
>A single Nethershard will suffice for my purposes. I'm certain you can put the rest to good use.
>Let's not speak of this again.

Life and Death do not exist on their own in Warcraft so they can't be cosmic forces. I'm sorry to hear you apply anti-intellectual dogmatism to your interpretation of lore because it means everything you've theorized can be invalidated with a single sentence:
Your headcanon isn't stated in Chronicles so it's not canon.

This is accurate. The Light and the Void are two fundamental forces from which all other things come. At the same time, it should be acknowledged that Life and Death are also fundamental magical forces that the Warcraft universe is built on, they just developed from the Light and the Void interacting with matter created by the interaction between those two forces. Think of it like the Big Bang. Just because gravity manifested before strong and electroweak forces, it doesn't mean that those aren't fundamental forces of the same variety as gravity.
It's got more basis in Chronicles than your MS Paint diagram.

>Maiev "Ten Thouasnd More Years" Shadowsong
>Maiev "One Woman Warden" Shadowsong
>Maiev "One Glaive Two Glaive Three Glaive Floor" Shadowsong
>Maiev "The Breaker" Shadowsong
>Maiev "The Old God Whisperer" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Bane of the Burning Legion" Shadowsong
>Maiev "The Sunderer" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Draenor Exterminator" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Mass Barrow Denier" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Drown Orgrimmar Along with Lor'themar" Shadowsong
>Maiev "Imprisoner" Shadowsong

>Just because gravity manifested before strong and electroweak forces, it doesn't mean that those aren't fundamental forces of the same variety as gravity.
You mean until we discover unified field theory and discover it's all one thing, right?

>It's got more basis in Chronicles than your MS Paint diagram.
Not really. If it's not stated in Chronicles it's not true, remember? Time to backpedal and agree you were just speculating.

I see that as not a sign that outer forces are directly connected, but that Elemental forces are what is connecting said outer forces.
Obviously Light isn't something that is Chaotic like Fel, and Shadow isn't particularly Orderly (unless they have direct hierarchy of The Void-void lords-Old Gods-minions of each Old God with Voidwalkers being directly connected to either The Void or void lords with skipping Old Gods... but it's not the post to speculate on that).
But when you will start looking at ELEMENTS as what connects them, it starts becoming more clear.
>Both Light and Fel can be used to make Fire, which tends to be uncontrollable and chaotic, which is why Ragnaros joined Deathwing
>Light and Life are connected to Spirit, all can heal
>Water takes shape of where it is, which is orderly, Water Elementals are easiest to control; Water is also often used in Shamanistic magic that is healing in nature; Orderly nature of Water is why Neptulon didn't joined Deathwing
>Earth is orderly and can be shaped into desired form, deep places of the earth hides shadows, where often minions of Old Gods hides; Orderly nature of Earth is why Therazane didn't aided Deathwing after the Cataclysm
>Air have chaotic winds, tornadoes, can take away life by cutting, bringing diseased air, or cold breath of death; one of spells of Death Knight of Gul'dan was Tornado that was clearly Death magic; Air being Chaotic is why Al'akir joined Deathwing
>Decay connects Death with Shadow, accompanies what happens to living after death, and can be used to subjugate elements

>All this shoehorned interpretation
We've hit Cargo Cult, ladies and gentlemen. And all because of one fucking diagram.

Okay, point out a model of unified field theory that holds any water.

Additionally, while Life and Death certainly didn't exist from the very beginning and is incorrect, they're still fundamental forces of reality born from Light and Void interacting with matter.

>Life and Death do not exist on their own in Warcraft so they can't be cosmic forces.
Chronicles disagree with you. Pic related.
>I'm sorry to hear you apply anti-intellectual dogmatism to your interpretation of lore
And yet the only person that brings his chart with dogmatic reverence and rejects any other interpretation is you.
>Your headcanon isn't stated in Chronicles so it's not canon.
>Autistic screeching about Chronicles chart
>Using at the same time argument that if it's not in Chronicles it's not canon
That being said, I know you actually meant the game there, and you are incorrect on the basis that Life/Nature magic and Death magic existing as separate things from other magics exists since before World of Warcraft as a game.

There could not possibly be a less fruitful usage of your time than attempting to explain the Warcraft cosmology.

1). Numerous canon sources directly contradict each other
2). It's literally made up as the story goes along; the cosmology is retconned every expansion
3). In 7 months the next expansion is going to invalidate your current attempt by explaining that arcane magic is actually tied to gravity or some other equally stupid shit that gets commented on offhand by some generic NPC written by an intern without any thought or concern given to how it affects your Zodiac-killer corkboard attempt at explaining the cosmology

But it does upset the poor, butthurt soul who vehemently insists that Life and Death aren't cosmic, fundamental forces of Warcraft and went to the effort of creating his own MS Paint diagram so he could exclude them, because the current canon triggers him so much.

>Interpreting diagram in the obvious way makes less sense than drawing completely new diagram that disregards several key elements, because they are not mentioned in game
The gentleman on the right laughs at your belief that Death magic isn't separate from other magics.

>And yet the only person that brings his chart with dogmatic reverence and rejects any other interpretation is you.
You are lying.
>Using at the same time argument that if it's not in Chronicles it's not canon
I'm applying the non-logic to its conclusion. If you believe the Chronicles and only the Chronicles you are being hypocritical if you use your brain for anything other than parroting it ad nauseam.

Thanks for confirming what I already suspected. You don't believe literally any of this stuff, you just regurgitate it in every thread to bait me.

Hey, you're the one so frustrated by canon that you draw hideous headcanon diagrams and try to push that as the "real" canon over the book that Blizzard is currently using as the foundation for the setting's cosmology.

Yes, I'm contributing to the development of the understanding of the lore.
You're just wasting time.

I am not the one who claims that Death/Necromantic magic is subsidiary of Arcane. It's not. It is known as its own thing at the least since Warcraft 2.

How can one contribute to understanding of the lore while actively going against it?

Yeah, but you see, the problem is that
is also just wrong as far as I can remember from the cosmology explained in-game circa Legion.

Is Death its own cosmological force?
If this were 2008 during Wrath I feel like you could confidently say 'No, it's part of Shadow Magic'.
But now in 2018 Shadow Magic is just Void magic which is Old God magic which is explicitly separate from Death Magic and necromancy.

It changes RADICALLY every expansion; just as Legion completely fucked up the cosmology I have no doubt that BfA and whatever comes after will further fuck it up.

I prefer to not overcomplicate things unless I'm going full theorycrafter mode. Void-Death-Decay seem clearly related, as do Light-Life-Spirit, Spirit is often even referred to as the "Spirit of Life" and Life is said to have originated from Light. However, Light and Life magics are distinct, as are Void and Death, even if they have a certain affinity for one another.

Arcane and Fel seem more evenly mixed, but expressed in different ways. Fel represent how those forces came together in the Twisting Nether. Arcane represents how they came together in "our" world. And that's mostly where I leave it.
What are you, some fucking retard? Theories will always be based off the latest lore, and connecting that lore to what was understood before the best one can. That's basic adaptability. This also makes it easier to understand where Blizzard is going with the lore, since they don't completely throw out everything they've retconned bits of. There's no point in insisting the lore is wrong. You just need to map it out and pick up on the obscure details, and you'll have a pretty firm grip on it all.

Lot's of things that take others by surprise are blatantly obvious to me, because I kept track of how the lore evolved and how the ideas formed. It's why I think ignoring the RPG is stupid, because it represents the roots of many later concepts. People saying Shadow Priests should be like Discipline Priests are now simply failed to read the RPG to get a deeper understanding of what Blizzard meant by the "balance" Shadow Priests believed in, and that concept of "balance" didn't change too much when it was presented in the magazine.

>How can anyone discover the truth by rejecting outdated falsehoods, superstitious nonsense and religious dogmatism?
I don't know, asshole.
Tell you what if we go to a Void-world where everything is Death instead of Life, the animating element is Decay instead of Spirit and the governing structure is Necromancy instead of Nature, and they're all named as such I will concede everything.
But as it stands now your only source is basically the Bible, with all the inaccuracy that implies.

As the resident expert of Void lore and its history, let me clear up some points.
>'No, it's part of Shadow Magic'.
This part is basically true. At one point in the lore, there was no real separation between Death and Void. Dark magic was generally lumped together. Even in Draenor, Void is heavily associated with Death and the world of the dead. The Auchenai Soul Priests are Shadow Priests who tend to the dead, and all. The Shadowmoon are all about Necromancy there. So you have a point.
>Shadow Magic is just Void magic
They were always the same thing. When the Void was introduced by name, it was presented as the equal and opposite of the Light. In short, it was just another name for shadow.
>which is Old God magic
Shadow Priests were summoning tentacles and tentacle monsters, and using psychic mindbending powers for some time. Dark magic was often portrayed with tendrils. Anyone with half a brain could realize Old Gods were being absorbed into the shadow family, and already fit in with it quite well. Though becoming the dominant theme might be a bit irksome.

Whatever the case, Death, Decay, and Void are still very heavily associated with one another in the lore and in the game, and very much continue to be associated in BFA. The reasonable conclusion is that Void has a strong affinity with Death, though pure Void is a more abstract force, in just the same way that Light promotes Life.

No, you're spreading disinformation by refusing to refer to the canon and instead push your own headcanon first and foremost. I believe in what's written in the book because it's Blizzard's current canon for the game. I'm not passionate about it but it is canon. What I don't have any respect for is someone trying to spread disinformation because the current canon of the game hurts their feelings. Your 'supposition' in is entirely unnecessary. The role of the Arcane is known, thanks to Chronicle. The role of Spirit is known, thanks to Chronicle. We've got no need for conjecture that serves only to confuse people and pander to your dislike of the current canon.
Cite your sources please. Not just 'as far as you can remember,' but actually sources that contradict Chronicle.

From what I understand of Chronicle, Life directly comes from Light interacting with matter, also known as the elements. Spirit is the primordial force that connects the elements. It also connects (most) living creatures are formed of matter and all matter comes from the elements.
To understand the source of Death, you must acknowledge that all matter, all of the elements come from the clash between Light and Void. As such, the Void is present in all matter in some fashion and this is what enables entropy. When it comes to living things, this is what enables Death. Decay is the primordial force that isolates the elements and severs the bonds between between them.

I'm not saying anything to disagree with you, by the way. I'm just elaborating on what you're saying, the Light is the source of Life and Spirit while the Void is the source of Death and Decay. However, all of those are important forces in their own right and just listing them as subsections of Light and Void would be doing them a disservice.

/wwg/ is a gen 2 general. When we had it all week long it devolved into constant shitposting and garithos memery.

Which is all well and good, but the salient point is that the lore and the cosmology change every expansion.
I'm not convinced that this WILL be the status quo going into BfA; it's been radically altered in BC, Wrath, Cata, MoP and Legion as it suits Blizzard's writers-of-the-expansion.

Attempting to nail it down is frankly nonsense, because it's NOT this well thought lore; it's changed arbitrarily as the story needs.
It's not some slow reveal that has been foreshadowed since Warcraft 3, it's "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if you fought Archimonde again as the penultimate boss before Legion?" "Yeah that sounds cool, change the lore".

Whichever quest in Legion talks about how the conflict between Light and Void directly creates Fel magic as some kind of magical waste product
I would assume it's somewhere between the quest named after a 1990's pop song and the quest where the guy says a funny meme and asks if you even lift, bro.

How kosher is it for a High Elf to use a gun?

>Whichever quest in Legion talks about how the conflict between Light and Void directly creates Fel magic as some kind of magical waste product
That doesn't necessarily disagree with Chronicle. Demons are formed at the very boundaries of the Twisting Nether, where Light and Void both bleed into it and are forced to mingle, coalescing into entities that we known as demons. They wield the chaotic magics of the region of the Twisting Nether that they come from, also known as fel magic. Demons and fel magic are canonically the product of Light and Void bleeding together, according to Chronicle.

Well, yes. Often times I see the separations between those forces as often being a stylistic thing. Even in the RPG days, there were ideas that Light, Life, and Spirit were associated. But stylistically, they're quite distinct. A Druid isn't a Paladin, so Light and Life magic should be separate. Pure Void magic has a different look from many kinds of Death magic, though they're often blurred a bit more. Back in the RPG days, there was literally no separation, though I believe one has developed since then.
>"Hey, wouldn't it be cool if you fought Archimonde again as the penultimate boss before Legion?" "Yeah that sounds cool, change the lore".
No need to change the lore. We've known Demons would revive in the Twisting Nether. It's a common mechanic in RPGs too. What they did was emphasize a part of the Lore that had been mentioned a few times before, but maybe not as strongly as they should have.
>Attempting to nail it down is frankly nonsense
It's quite easy, so long as you realize it's constantly in flux. With Argus as a Death Titan and special Death magic effects that continue to be used in BFA, typically a mix of black and blue, it's clear they want to do something with Death. Of course, we still see strong Void influences in the Shadowlands, with tentacles dragging the ghost kid away and such. I expect to see Death and Void developed further in BFA, and the relation between the two more clearly explored.

Culturally, it's not their kind of weapon. But if they like it, why not?

>No need to change the lore. We've known Demons would revive in the Twisting Nether. It's a common mechanic in RPGs too. What they did was emphasize a part of the Lore that had been mentioned a few times before, but maybe not as strongly as they should have.

Whole point of wisp-bombing him was "he won't be able to come back from THAT".

Whining 'but it'll just change' doesn't excuse peddling your headcanon as fact like does. For the first time in ages, we've got some concrete lore on the cosmology of Warcraft that isn't just made up on a whim. Until they contradict it, I'll keep referring to it as the canon. If you want to not care about it because they'll just change it in a couple of years, Warcraft might not be the appropriate game for you. They change everything every couple of years, not just the cosmology.

If I wanted to run a game with the Pre-wrath/cataclysm (haven’t decided) lore, does anyone know a good source that hasn’T been updated?