All these 5efags who go into threads singing praises on 5e's "innovations"

That was my first post in this thread. I never said anything originally.

Because it didn’t and you are just repeating a meme?

Did you pay attention to the playtest at all?

>Doesn't use evidence or example, just declects

The one who's winning. Can't you FEEL that sense of smugness coming off my posts that require no anime lolis? It doesn't even matter that me "winning" is just a figment of my autism-addled brain, you still don't want to let me think I'm right.
From there it's all a war of attrition. I just have to keep replying saying I'm right, and eventually I'll have the last word. That's all I need to do to win, and autism is already on my side.

This still makes me more right than you.

Since this thread is already full of trolling and baiting and has no real purpose, I thought I'd stop by and say how glad I am that 4E, AKA "DND the Tabletop MMO", is dead.

>2e
>innovative

Why feel anything about it at all? It's nothing.

Absolutely wrong.
You're forgetting the far more common "I can't find anything to complain about so I'll call it bland, uninspired, and afraid to take risks."

What was that manga name again? fucking batoto closed and won't let me retrieve a reading list

>>all these 5efags who go into threads singing praises on 5e's "innovations"
>>ignorant of the fact that those same innovations were actually from 4e

God I hate this so much.
My butt is still sore from the time Monte Cook claimed to have invented passive perception for 5e

Looks like the Inn series from the same author who does "I Met My Sister on a Dating App," or maybe on of their one-shots.
In which case it's most certainly going to be a Yuri, and quite possibly incestuous as well.

No, I like to give those anons false hope so that when I do point out the fact that they have nothing substantial to stand on I can do so using the most Ass-backwards cancerous troll logic and it'll still work.

Found it, the name is mononoke sharing

Ah, so it was the OTHER Yuri comesu Manga artist that draws slightly rounder heads.

Innovation is not invention, those are two different things.

I like 5e but think it is bland. The game is good, don't get me wrong, but they stayed in safe ground, only that.

>My butt is still sore from the time Monte Cook claimed to have invented passive perception for 5e
He didn't, but it wasn't a new idea. Cook might have thought of it as well.

Nothing in 5e is innovative.
Background is nothing new and is just an obnoxious extra step for chargen Wizards of the Coast made to virtue-signal that they were making the game more roleplay-oriented.
The ASI mechanics are trash, based around instant gratification.
Ability scores are far too important now, meaning rolling for stats is entirely a thing of the past, making the 3-18 ability scores vestigial and pointless.
Chargen is boring, it's "pick this fighting style and this archetype" for fighters, and "pick this archetype / school" for all other classes.
Feats are either useless or overpowered.
Great Weapon Master is overpowered when a 15+ AC is rare as fuck.
Paladins have turned into "lol whatever you want" dumb-ass fighter-cleric class because of edgelords
Damage and HP bloat are insane.
The game is pussified, trivializing monsters like mind flayers and basilisks and medusas.
And martialcucks, despite having an entire subsystem of the game pandering to them, continue to whinge and bitch that martials are boring, and will also complain that every monster ability that might hurt a fighter, is specifically there to fuck over marital characters. Fighter players have a worse persecution complex than blacks and mexicans at this point. It's fucking ridiculous.

>Paladins have turned into "lol whatever you want" dumb-ass fighter-cleric class because of edgelords
Better than being a shittier Cleric who can fall faster than an asteroid at the DM's whim.

>Damage and HP bloat are insane.
5E's damage is lower than any edition since 2E's, which makes the HP staying on the same level as 3E monsters suck incredibly hard.

>despite having an entire subsystem of the game pandering to them, continue to whinge and bitch that martials are boring
>subsystem sucks
>wow how dare you complain, you got a whole subsystem to yourself, why aren't you grateful?

Honestly, 5e players are cancer on the community brought on by the "youtube" generation of players who watch critical roll and scream like autistic retards when they see a natural 20

You are going to hit a lot more often in 5e than in any other edition of D&D. They just lowered the AC and damage, and made a lot of opportunities to to big bursts of damage.

Paladins are amazing in 5e

No you aren't, what the fuck?

You should have exported your list. You had several week's notice.

>at the DM's whim
Then it's a shit DM anyway. No different than a DM who goes out of his way to make the ranger's favored enemy never show up.

You aren't entitled to a subsystem.
You aren't entitled to "interesting martials," the definition of which vacillates daily
You aren't entitled to have the game pander to you as reparation for 3e.
You chose to play 3e.
You chose to play martials.
You continue to choose to play martial characters.
You are not entitled to have martials work the way you want them to.
You are not entitlted to be like Hercules.
You are not entitled to be like the spike-haired protagonist of whatever Nip comic you're currently reading.
You are not entitled to have fun playing a martial.
Most people enjoy playing martials.
You are not entitled to have the game pander to what you want.
You are a small part of the playerbase, and a small part of the market share.
You were literally given the most interesting fighter class D&D has ever had, yet you still whine and bitch like a child.
Make your own game.
Stop complaining martialcuck.
You deserve nothing.

>5E's damage is lower than any edition since 2E's
LOL no it's not. Esp. if you're running a barbarian. Or allowing GWM in your campaign. Also base damage in 5e is higher than in 3.5, that's part of why people like it you stupid fuck, the ability scores start higher and you apply Dex to damage with light melee and ranged, so your best stat (usually a +3) is almost always applying to damage, you retard fuck.

They are a strong class, but thematically they have been raped into some WoW-tier dark-scrolls clone of their former selves by edgelords who can't stand to play LG.
And the same liber-fag mindset of "well why not? why should this class only be this?" and when you give a reason involving tradition they should "WELL THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH." If you made ranger into a full-druid type of class no one would care by that same logic, because modern faggot D&D players don't understand archetypical roles nor do they see any value in them because they don't want to roleplay those, they are "too cliche" (even though most of them have never RP'd a paladin in their life) so they play a tiefling warlock or drow rogue instead and shit up the campaign with the edgy shit.

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about, stop posting. A novaing 5E martial struggles to reach the damage a 3.5 martial could do on a round by round basis.

>Is this what happens when the only systems someone knows are Pathfinder and 5e?

Yes always. They think that because D&D is ridiculously obtuse and complicated, every other system must be that difficult to learn and thus they can only ever really *know* one system. it's fuckin' sad, man.

I'm talking about low-level retard. Not high-level 3.5 where power attackers put out 200+ damage per round and that was without Charging builds that could put that easily into the thousands if not higher.

Between better buffs and AoO/crit rules that favor 3.5's martials more, it's still true at low levels unless the point of comparison is a Battlemaster spending everything he has all at once, and that's if we're limiting it to core's garbage classes.

Wow, it's another thing that was from 4e

>You were literally given the most interesting fighter class D&D has ever had, yet you still whine and bitch like a child.
u fucking wot mate
A level 1 4e Fighter is more engaging and fun than a level 20 5e Fighter is.

Ok, so have you not played 3e, 3.5 or 4e?

Because damage can go way, way higher in those games. 5e has some of the longest fights in D&D on a round-by-round basis. 4e fights just take longer due to involving a lot more decisions

I hate how the only way I can pull someone into melee range from afar as a fighter in 5e is by going eldritch knight or taking the magic adept feat

I have a Shadowrun game as a player.
An upcoming Traveller game as GM
And am busy planning a Heroquest campaign.
All games are in person at one physical table.

Buy a lasso.

What I was talking about was a column he did in his brief tenure during the D&D Next playtest.
It basically went "hey guys, perception is great! But you can assume most people would notice things around them with no roll. I like to call this 'passive perception'".
Which was retarded because passive perception had been right on the character sheets for the previous four years.
The article was taken down after Monte left but that was the kind of stuff that came out during playtest. It wasn't new but Cook claimed it was his idea.

What I think is funny is that Hit Dice in 5e do exactly what the 3aboos claimed Healing Surges do in 4e but they like them in 5e.

Do they? How?

As a bonus, they're also a much, much shittier implementation of the same idea.

In 5e Hit Dice are spent to recover HP, normally during rests, but a few class features allow you to spend them. Magical healing, like Cure Wounds spells, works independently of Hit Dice. As long as there are spell slots available for healing spells you can keep getting healed whether or not you have any Hit Dice left. In short Hit Dice are a limited form of regeneration.

Healing Surges in 4e are discreet amounts of healing (1/4 of your max HP). In addition they put a cap on the amount of healing you can receive in a day as nearly all healing carried a cost of surge as well. For example a Cleric could cast Healing Touch on a guy, he'd spend a Surge and heal his Surge value + a bonus amount from the spell. Everyone could as a Standard Action (which normally your attack) use the Second Wind Encounter Power to spend a Surge and recover some HP, but otherwise to access a surge you had to either rest or have an ability used on you that allowed you to spend a Surge.. Eventually you could reach a point where your body just couldn't take any more and no further healing would work on you. Surgeless healing did exist, but was generally weaker and relatively rare.

As mentioned Hit Dice are also shittier as you roll instead of recovering a proportional amount of HP so at higher levels individual Hit Dice become less relevant.

Nah I just asked my DM to add the line "the target must make a strength saving throw, if they fail they are pulled up to 10 feet towards you" on the end of the lunging attack maneuver

>In 5e Hit Dice are spent to recover HP, normally during rests, but a few class features allow you to spend them. Magical healing, like Cure Wounds spells, works independently of Hit Dice. As long as there are spell slots available for healing spells you can keep getting healed whether or not you have any Hit Dice left. In short Hit Dice are a limited form of regeneration.

How is this anything like what 3aboos claimed healing surges were like?

Did we miss the fight? Sorry, we were busy being an actual game.

3aboos claimed Healing Surges were regeneration.

No, you weren't. You were busy trying to make it seem like you were on Twitter.

Newfag here, what makes Pathfinder better than DnD, and likewise, what makes DnD better than Pathfinder?

oh well then I guess he was wrong. your personal experience has proved that the global availability of games that aren't d&d is clearly much higher than previously imagined. way to go.

>
I hate both healing surges and 5e hit dice, you wanna fight?

Pathfinder is just some guys shitty 3.x houserules. It essentially is an extension of the shittiest edition of D&D. In some ways it is better than 3.x and in some it is worse, it is like the difference between shit with corn in it and shit without.

D&D progressed into blandness.
Pathfinder regressed into stupidity, retardation, and Snowflakism.
If you have to choose, play D&D.

Nice b8 fag. Didn't even have the balls to start shit in the 5e thread itself? Pussy.

If you have to choose, play B/X

Holmes > Moldvay

Depends on the edition

Pathfinder is around equal, or a little bit worse, for optimization and interesting builds than 3.5, and is a little bit better at it than 4e. On the other hand 4e and 5e are a lot better balanced than Pathfinder. And 5e in particular is very easy for a beginner to understand compared to the others

>muh daggers attack twice per round

Ah, sorry. Got my imageboards mixed up.

Pathfinder is a game. It finds a happy medium between 3.5 autism and halfway decent gameplay.

Spergs like dislike games which require them to do math, and so naturally gravitate towards handwavery like 5e, which lacks the mechanical chops to do much of anything that could make it seem like a "game" in any real sense. The only similarity it has to Dungeons and Dragons is its use of STR DEX CON and so on.

Play Path. It's fun.

AC in 5e begins low and stays low the entire game while your to attack roll modifier goes up even if you don't max the stat immediately.
And that's before having a magical weapon.

It's something I dislike in B/X and retroclones, and something I loathe in 3.5 which requires you to go extreme optimization to keep hitting on top of the magic mart requirements.

If you want D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder, but actually good, try Fantasycraft
If you want D&D with some more roleplay focused mechanics, but still very D&D feeling, play 5e

D&D Tiers

God Tier
BECMI
B/X

Good Tier
4e
2e

Meh Tier
5e
1e

Shit Tier
3.0
3.5

Wannabe Shit Tier
Pathfinder

Oh Shit Naga What Are You Doing Tier
FATAL

You do realize that all editions had non-LG paladin options, right?

5e just streamlined it so you have to follow the tenants of your oath. Even the edgelord oath was a popular archetype in paladins in D&D (see any thread about paladins as bad guys in the past decade) way before it was codified in a way that makes sense.

>all editions had non-LG paladin options
No they didn't.

>AC in 5e begins low
No. Enemies with 11 AC like ogres are the exception, not the rule, and are almost always bulky as fuck to make up for their low AC. 5E's attack vs AC starts out at level 1 3.5 levels, if not even worse because of outliers like Hobgoblins being a huge pain in the ass to hit, and gets better over a very long period of time, whereas attack bonuses scale much faster than AC does in every edition prior to 4E.

which editions of D&D had Paladins but didn't have non-lawful-good options for them?

not the guy you're quoting but I DO hate the argument of "it's popular/people play it so it's won" when tabletop games are not a large enough field where mass market analysis is really worth much.

D&D is a ubiquitous brand name and a large majority of games are it yes but when it comes to criticism of mechanics popularity really isn't a factor. Because yes: you can just decide to play other games and get people interested if you know where to look and how to spin it.

TSR ones.

Wrong. 1e had the Anti-Paladin and a Paladin class for each alignment. BECMI's version of the Avenger was basically a Chaotic Paladin.

>3.5fag is a moefag

What a surprise

Except that if a favored enemy never comes up, you're still a capable ranger. If your paladin falls, you're just a shittier Fighter with less feats until you go on a redemption arc to regain something that you shouldn't have lost in the first place.

>You do realize that all editions had non-LG paladin options, right?
Bullshit. You're thinking of 3.5. Blackguards and Antipaladins are not paladins you fucking retard. That's like saying rangers and fighters are the same thing.

The math in 5e is completely different from 3.5. Comparing the raw numbers is retarded.

>It wasn't new but Cook claimed it was his idea.
So? It might have been his idea from a long time ago. Or it might have been a lot of peoples' ideas given that that's a pretty common-sense way of shortcutting stealth rolls.

I have played 3.5 and Pathfinder. Actually I have run those as well, with 10 years experience. Even with that, and my extreme speed at running combat, they can take a full hour or more to finish. I never DMed a real 4e campaign, only a one-shot, but when I played for a few years combat took forever, I tolerated it because it was my only gaming at the time.

And yes damage CAN go higher in 3.5, but the point of 5e was that it was supposed to be balanced, and not have the same trap options and feats taxes of 5e. Great Weapon Master blows any other melee fighting style out of the water.

>I hate how the only way I can pull someone into melee range from afar as a fighter in 5e
Why should you be allowed to do that?
Why are you entitled to that?

>A level 1 4e Fighter is more engaging and fun than a level 20 5e Fighter is.
Entirely subjective. Of the 4e fighter powers only a few are really tactically interesting in any way. No, floating modifiers and ongoing damage are just side-lined bullshit to complicate combat without really adding anything to it.

>Except that if a favored enemy never comes up, you're still a capable ranger.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>If your paladin falls, you're just a shittier Fighter with less feats until you go on a redemption arc to regain something that you shouldn't have lost in the first place.
So? Just don't fall then. Or don't play a paladin in a game with a shitty DM. You don't change the rules to make for shitty DM insurance. That's how you end up with shit on the level of MTG with multiple fat autistic judges to interpret the arcane rules of everything. Hmm kinda like 3.5.

I'd call the advantage and disadvantage system innovative. It's the key thing in 5e that makes it a lot more streamlined to play instead of having to constantly look up, add and subtract modifiers that slowed the game a lot. Pathfinder takes that from 3e and turns it up to eleven

>Why should you be allowed to do that?
>Why are you entitled to that?

Because in any game ever it is always the most fun thing to do as a melee character. Vidya or tabletop.

Advantage is just taking the Avenger's class feature and making it a baseline mechanic

Not that that's a bad thing in any way

>Entirely subjective. Of the 4e fighter powers only a few are really tactically interesting in any way.

Not him, but even if the ability boils down to "hit man harder", just having the ability to do that at a time of your choice is more tactical than anything a 5e fighter really provides.

And you're wrong, most of them are quite interesting, especially once you look above level 1 when a lot of the more powerful status effects become available.

You can fuck right off if you're going to blame other people when they call you out for being wrong.

Is Cook your uncle, or something?
He was promoting a new thing and tried to pass an old thing as his idea, showing that I'm the marketing spin it was pretty clear what the line was.
You should take Monte's cock out of your mouth sometimes, you risk to choke yourself.

*in the marketing spin.