Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

Think SI:7 does the same amount of torturing too.

There are a few things certain in WoW
No orc paladins, human shamans, or playable naga ever

That's what 99% of the posters want on MMO-champion and the Story Forum, aparently, for the Alliance to be the bad guys (all the while spamming death wishes on Tyrande, Genn, and anyone who insults the Lich Queen)

Eh, the Apothecaries were doing that shady shit back in Vanilla.

Did you not read Sylv's boy toy's story?

the RAS isn't the Horde, they're rogue cultists and probably Legion sympathizers too. Liadrin and Lor'themar not Sylvanas and Nathanos ok? Praise Thrall

>going on mmochamp for anything but datamining
Spotted your first mistake

I really, really wish the RAS had been disbanded after the Battle for the Undercity.

They commited genocide against those centaurs in Thousand Needles to steal their oil.
Night Elf terrorists kill non-combatants in Ashenvale.
They sink an unidentified civilian vessel killing hundreds of enslaved Goblins just for witnessing them attempting to capture Thrall after he's stepped down as Warchief and was acting as a leader of the Earthen Ring, a neutral organization that the Alliance had acknowledged by that point in time.
They unironically don't acknowledge the Undead as people and the war on the Undercity for the purpose of exterminating or displacing the entire Forsaken population is literally, dictionary-definition genocide.

Neither faction in Warcraft is supposed to be good.

And you will experience none of those things if you play Alliance

The Horde players see the horrible things both sides do, the Alliance players only see the horrible things the Horde does and is repeatedly told that they're the good guys

>They commited genocide against those centaurs in Thousand Needles to steal their oil.
Both sides actually do that. It's a mirrored quest.

The Horde ain't free. The path to victory gotta be paved with the skulls of the recalcitrant.

Yes, it is.
So the Alliance do it.

>They commited genocide against those centaurs in Thousand Needles to steal their oil.
I wonder if this is possibly a metaphor for anything

Also can we please not open a thread with this? I'd prefer the retard spamming his blue orcs meme get replies than we sink into this again.

>They unironically don't acknowledge the undead as people

Source?

What are the possible lore ramifications of this drunk motherfucker in the post-WoD WoW story?

he owned one of the monk legendaries

You forgot
>started the war with the Horde that goes on in Cata on the basis of genocide
>attempted to assassinate the reigning monarch of Ironforge and overthrew the monarchy because they weren't agreeing with the High King's decisions
>used slave labor in Pandaria
>firebombed villages

But these two are right about it. Good lore discussion comes from talking about the world not the plot.

The Alliance is literally on step 9 of the Ten Stages of Genocide when they conquer the Undercity.
The Tenth, Denial, will unironically happen in BfA when there will be a cutscene in which Genn and Anduin and possibly Saurfang are all sitting in a room saying "We had to do it", "Yep, we sure had to do it", "I understand why you did it".

To be fair though, basically all conflict in WoW is nonsensically genocidal in that it's all completely race based with no meaningful cause.
None of it's probably intentional, Blizzard writers are just fucking shit.

>tfw they completely removed mo'arg engineers from the game
I fucking loved these guys and the demented laugh they had when engaging you.

>possibly Saurfang

I don't really get the "blue orc" meme, like, yeah Blizz makes the dumbest fucking choice they can. But Saurfang working behind his superior's back to do the right thing has been a thing since Wrath and he's still repping the Red.

Well met.

Too goofy for Legion.

Laser beams? Sawblade shooters? Shockarms?
Fuck that gay cartoon shit, throw in a bunch of retarded Diablo 3 demons and make everything run on SOULS.
Are we Warhammer 40k yet?

>Mythic Raid
>So close to the World First kill that you can taste Lady Victory. Everyone on VoIP client cheering.
>Boss's HP plummeting. Error free play from everyone.
>Addon displays countdown sequence. Pay no attention instead focusing on rotation. Raid Leader screams.
>Boss suddenly gains five life bars and a shield.
>

mo'arg engineers and plague eruptors were 2 of the best enemy designs in WoW, it's too bad they sort of ruined the abomination designs afterward with the shitty ones in ICC

Dark Mirror was the story I was thinking of.

Is that an Warboss mog?

Yeah, I don't see Saurfang outright defecting anytime soon. That said, keep in mind his original claim to fame was leading an army consisting of both Horde and Alliance troops. If any orc would be willing to meet the Alliance halfway, it's him.

Fuck off back to /v/
Sage

Yet they gave them outright spaceships and starfighters.

Isn't the boss plugged into the ground in Antorus a giant Mo'arg engineer?

Also there are SOME Gan'arg that can be summoned from Sentinax portals on the Broken Shore.

You didn't give me a source.

>That said, keep in mind his original claim to fame was leading an army consisting of both Horde and Alliance troops.
His original claim to fame was an infinite-jump Cleave that got more powerful with each leap and wiped out dumb alliance raids and when mindcontrolled murdered the shit out of Orgrimmar itself

WoW """"""lore"""""" has been fucked since TBC when blizz decided that it needed to make Tieflings a playable race but decided they had to be Protoss at the same time so they sloppily retconned the Draenei instead of making Furbolgs an ally race which they should have which might also have preempted blizz from making Worgen a race which wouldn't be a problem except they had to make them as furry as they possibly fucking could be.

And what the goddamned fucking shit were they doing creating an entire race based on a joke character from WC3? Just because Samwise's fursona is a fucking panda doesn't mean you need an entire fucking expansion about them.

And I haven't been following what's going on since Wrath when I unsubbed but I understand that Sylvanas is warchief now for some reason. Since my main was undead and Slyvanas was my WC3 waifu that's kind of cool I guess but it's also stupid at the same time. And I've also heard that the entire undead zone has been conquered by the Alliance and now forsaken start out in Durotar or something which is fucking stupid and pisses me off.

Kin'garoth is, but he's the only one we've seen since BC

The BfA leaks? Where they conquer the Undercity?
Been on MMO-champion for months?

Yeah, okay. His in-story original claim to fame, then.

So conquering your enemy's capital is equivalent to considering them subhuman and wanting them all exterminated?

>They unironically don't acknowledge the Undead as people and the war on the Undercity for the purpose of exterminating or displacing the entire Forsaken population is literally, dictionary-definition genocide.

They're not people. They're not a race, they can't procreate.

Yes?
When you conquer an enemy's capital AND subsequently displace the population, that is genocide.

Think of it not in cartoon Warcraft terms:
>Japan conquers Seoul and displaces or kills all the Koreans who haven't fled

Step 4

Oh, I see. You're retarded. I'm sorry, I thought you actually had a point and weren't trying to just bait more red vs blue bullshit.

>subsequently displace the population, that is genocide
>Teldrassil burns before Battle for Azeroth

Alright, so everyone is still a monster but Horde are just the ones to start being monsters.

Poor Nathanos.

"But he started it" didn't fly in kindergarden, it's not gonna fly in a war crime tribunal either.

Wait what happened to him now? I'm like four expansion out of the loop and everything I learn enrages me.

The Alliance also has hundreds of homeless thanks to them waging wars

I'm not baiting shit, asswipe.
Every faction is a fucking genocidal, racist, terrorist shithole because Blizzard doesn't write their setting to any degree of realism, or with any salient thought given to how any character's actions make sense outside the context of being a videogame where you've butchered 200,000 mobs over your lifetime to farm cloth to make dresses.

The actions in WoW are all undeniable war crimes; the only reason you don't think so is because the game doesn't show the actual consequences of anything that happens because it's a fucking cartoon game with cartoon characters.

Only it does. Provided you win.

Chuchill's degerminization of northwest Poland never got punished. Nor did all the shit the soviets did.

I'm not really looking to argue the point because it's dumb either way but I'd ask if, since you consider the Forsaken to be their own race, do you think the same of the Death Knights?

The undead aren't people. They're literally reanimated abominations cursed to continue to "live" in a state of cursed existence.
Most of the survivors of Lordearon fled to Stormwind as refugees. Those are the "people" of Lordearon.

The forsaken are in need of a mercy killing.

They made him an in game representation of every Sylvanas fanboy ever and gave him a model that looks like a gray skinned human instead of an updated version of his vanilla model that was an actual Forsaken. So now BOTH leaders of the Forsaken look nothing like their playerbase.

Nathanos, the guy in was transformed into the guy in by the fancy Val'kyr magic of Sylvanas.

Yes, if a faction were to single out Death Knights, because they are Death Knights, and discriminate against them and eventually kill them on the basis that they are in this class of people, it would be genocide.

Now do you remember? Who you are? What you were meant to do? I cheated death thanks to you. And thanks to you, I've left my mark. You have too. You've written your own history. You're your own man. I'm Nathanos Blightcaller, and you are too. No. He's the two of us together. Where we are today, we built it. This story, this legend; it's ours. We can change Azeroth, and with it, the future. I am you and you are me. Carry that with you wherever you go. Thank you, my friend. From here on out, you're Nathanos Blightcaller.

There is a huge difference between

>Taking a city that is rightfully yours from undead monsters
and
>Burning a magical life giving tree and home to an entire race of people.

>"We have the population of literally three towns, so we are the rightful owners of the entire nation"
Blue logic.

My main point in bringing it up is that the Death Knights themselves don't consider themselves to be a race but rather an organization. They still refer to themselves as their previous race, rather than just as a Death Knight. More often than not, a Forsaken will call themselves Forsaken or undead rather than a human or an elf.

Is there no distinction between what the people themself consider themselves to be? If a war started to purge all of the druids on Azeroth, would they then become a race instead of an organization/class?

Alonsus Faol for leader of the Forsaken when

He doesn't support the beliefs of the Forsaken, really. Tehd Shoemaker would be the obvious fit, instead.

Alonsus Faol for Ecclesiarch of the Confederation of Light.

...Good?

Most of the established beliefs of the Forsaken are pointlessly evil and fucking retarded. Someone detached from that bullshit is exactly what they need

I agree, there is a huge difference between

>A city and its surrounding regions being stolen from its rightful owners who have lived in the area for their entire existences, by apathetic foreigners who don't even acknowledge their right to exist.
and
>Culling a corrupted failure of a world tree that saps the energy of Azeroth and is home only to a handful of dumb sluts responsible for causing half of the catastrophes of Azeroth's history.

>Tehd leading the Forsaken
>Marius hanging around in the royal quarter to kill anything too unstable he summons
Could be fun

>Implying I'm a blue
The zombies are fucking zombies that exist only because the "Make plague and kill stuff" brainwashing bomb wasn't on a high enough setting so they can still form words.
>"W-We broke away from the scourge because it's evil so we have free will!"
>Proceeds to do scourge things.
The Forsaken need to be mercy killed. They think they're free of the scourge, but they're still just following its will and doing what it tells them to just like the how the Death Knights aren't really free from the Lich King according to Legion

That'd be great, and a good way to cool the cartoonish sociopathy of the Forsaken and turn them more towards their Lordaeron heritage.

It literally doesn't matter what you consider yourself; the victims of the Holocaust weren't chosen based on whether they considered themselves Jewish or not.

Classification
Symbolization
Discrimination
Dehumanization
Organization
Polarization
Preparation
Persecution
Extermination
Denial

You choose a group of people based on LITERALLY any arbitrary classification and start killing them, it's a genocide as recognized by every single country in the world.

Honestly that would be kinda hilarious.

While I agree that a faction of undead lead by Alonsus would be incredibly cool and much more interesting than the current Forsaken, I think that would end up causing some problems. A leader should mold themselves to fit the faction they lead, not the other way around. Factions bending to the whims of their leader is how we got Garrosh's Horde and now Sylvanas's Horde. It ends up creating situations where people that have played a race for years feel like they're being shafted because their characters are being made to support values they shouldn't.

It'll never happen but it'd be cool to have a second group of undead led by Alonsus. The Redeemed or something. Maybe to make it an opposite of the Forsaken they could be the Reclaimed. They don't even necessarily need to be playable, it'd just be nice to have something in lore for all of the undead that dislike the ways of the Forsaken.

I think that pic shows promise as a cool spinoff game thing, provided Blizzard doesn't handle the story. Turn Horde v Alliance into a gang war-type deal in modern/ near future days

The tree was freed of its corruption and blessed by the Aspects. It's literally a pure world tree that has had all of its issues fixed. Also, while individual night elves have made mistakes in their past it's stupid to blame the entire race for it, especially when they were the ones primarily getting fucked. It'd be like saying the Forsaken need to die because they're Lordaeronian humans and so was Arthas, despite his main victims being the Forsaken.

My original question wasn't whether or not it was a genocide but whether or not you would consider Death Knights an individual race. I think it's fair to say they're not, but if that's the case then is it fair to say the Forsaken are a unique race? They're both just undead versions of other races, after all, they're just kind of arbitrarily considered different things.

I'm picturing the both of them meeting with the rest of Horde leadership at war councils, and while funny in my head it also seems a bit Kosak/Flintlocke

As if he'd ever let his Waifu get kicked out.

But I do get your point.

But why?

Why should all the edgelords who have dominated the Forsaken for so long, turning what could have been an interesting faction into a frustratingly generic one, get to keep having their way?

>they're just kind of arbitrarily considered different things
Welcome to real life, where a Finn and a Spaniard are white, but not the right kind of white to join the mob.

Maiev was right.

the forsaken are all undead Lordaeronians, while DKs can be any race pre-MoP

Because there would be a lot of outcry if things changed. The Forsaken fanbase is large and many of them enjoy being edgy and having their zombie waifu as the leader. Giving them an actually morally upright and admirable person as a leader would fuck shit up. While I think it might be better and more interesting, Blizzard won't do it and it also wouldn't make much sense in the story. Alonsus is undead but does not consider himself a Forsaken. Why would he take up leadership of them, and why would the Forsaken accept his leadership?

It's possible Blizzard could make an Allied Race that are undead led by Alonsus. They could be the purest, most pious motherfuckers on the planet and are able to freely use the Light despite being undead. Forsaken players would probably be pretty upset if they ended up going Alliance, but that would make the most sense for that sort of faction. The frustration might be lessened if their piety is turned up to 11 and they're basically slightly more serious Friar Tuck types, because I imagine a lot of Forsaken players might find that inherently unappealing.

Then the Alliance can RP trolling through the city, killing off zombie orgy feasting raves

The Forsaken are all undead that swear fealty to Sylvanas. Elves, humans from other nations, abominations, etc. are all considered Forsaken. Their leader is an elf, and that's enough to make it clear they're not taken from just a single ethnicity. On top of that, living Lordaeronians sill exist.

That's a distinction of actual race, though. The difference between Death Knights and Forsaken is even greater. One is just an organization while the other is an actual race, at least to some people, despite them ostensibly having similar circumstances. Beyond game mechanics, is there any reason for this distinction to exist? Just what they consider themselves to be?

I'm not arguing that it should be different, by the way, I just think it's an interesting aspect of the lore. The nature of being undead and how it would influence your identity and what you consider yourself to be. I suppose it's fair to assume that most Death Knights naturally have more individuality and self-worth because they're a 'higher' class of undead.

>DKs can be any race pre-MoP
I still hate that. DKs are supposed to be corrupted paladins, basically. It should be restricted to races that can be paladins and forsaken.

I mean, they put a stupid-ass restriction on DHs, so why not with DKs?

I understand now. Sylvanas is your Vriska.

The original Death Knights were the souls of orc warlocks shoved into the corpses of human knights. The second wave were Arthas and other paladins that were corrupted by dark magic. The third wave were the Scourge elite forces that Arthas made, who are various types of warriors raised from death to be incredibly strong undead. Anybody that had a reason to be in Scourge territory and could be killed by them could reasonably become a Death Knight, if they were deemed worthy and passed the trials.

because third generation death knights aren't second generation death knights. The same reason death knights aren't forced to be orcs

Were there any other 'Second Wave' Death Knights besides Arthas?
The generic Death Knight hero never appears in any campaign in Warcraft 3, I think they might actually have been a gameplay only, non-canon thing.

Holy fuck I would be furious if all of a sudden the forsaken holy priest I've had since vanilla was suddenly left high and dry by giving the Alliance a "good forsaken" faction

His two bros Falric and Marwyn are, I believe. The knights flanking him in the cinematic where he kills Terenas, who show up again in Halls of Reflection.

Rivendare and the Four Horsemen were

Who the fuck is Vriska?

Something from a webcomic with an extremely autistic fanbase.

I think what he meant was Slyvanas is a female anti-hero villain with equally autistic fanbase and haters who devolve everything to be about whether she is the worst/best thing ever.