Welcome to /osrg/, the Old School Renaissance General! Here we discuss editions of Dungeons and Dragons from the TSR era, as well as retro-clones of those editions and other games and material compatible with them. We also shitpost vigorously
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Unfortunate.
I guess this is the new general now.
I guess so.
So back to the first hexcrawl map. Does this look better?
Can someone explain to me how all OSR games don't just devolve into 'mother may I?' with no defined system of resolving the majority of actions players might attempt in game the adjudication of those actions is left entirely and arbitrarily up to the GM and their own personal bias and opinions. A plan works based on if the GM feels it does, not by rules set up in the game world.
All future OPs should be smart enough not to post pics violating Veeky Forums's rules. I don't think that's too much to ask.
This looks a lot more interesting than the last map imo. Good distribution of stuff and wilderness.
You don't have to ask the GM if you can do something.
You can TRY to do anything. The GM and the dice, just determine whether or not you succeed.
If you don't like Rule 0, feel free to play a narrative-based game with no adjudicator or neutral mediator where you jerk each other off for 4 hours instead.
We've got the rules people just choose not to use them, you'd be surprised how people don't know OD&D had crafting or AoO's.
Nice, Looks good. And you've still got plenty of space to put hidden stuff in, which is good.
If you don't like what you see, don't switch. Dozens of people never stopped playing AD&D.
Tea ceremonies are DEFINITELY a Fighter activity.
Unless you're suggesting it's some sort of Tenser's Transformation?
...is the eyerony lost on you?
Isn't he .
The ref isn't an antagonist. He's an arbiter. If you're not a spazz and they're not a spazz, nothing will lead to a spazzfest.
Sure does
>no defined system of resolving the majority of actions
There's either 1d20 under stat, 1d20 over stat, or X-in-Y/percentage chance.
>A plan works based on if the GM feels it does, not by rules set up in the game world.
What's the difference between this and "you get +5 to your attempt because it makes sense"?
90% of the RPG systems in existence don't really have rules for much of the stuff you attempt (because you don't really need it). You have a core mechanic and bases for estimating your chances. You do have that in OSR (either provided by the system, or simple roll X-in-6).
OSR even provides rules for things other systems gloss over, for example a way to estimate time in the dungeon (turns), something which completely puzzled me when I ran my first RPG game (3.5 Sunless Citadel).
So, in essence - when playing RPGs you're always doing a sort of "mother may I", however concealed. Except if you're playing GURPS, for the most part.
Having everything out-of-combat be solved by the players rolling their perception/investigation/persuasion is not exactly riveting
What was wrong with the other general? Does Veeky Forums have a vendetta against Raggi or something?
Mind circling his dick on imgur and linking it to us? I don't see it.
Nah, it was probably not safe for work because Raggi's basically naked in the OP pic.
>varied environs
>landmarks
>space for hidden shit
Good job son, proud of you
You just saw a bit of his bum, who gives a shit?
...
If you have questions about why threads are deleted, ask /qa/, feedback, or IRC. Now fuck off.
The DCI.
I'm forever surprised by how often we independently rediscover stuff Gary thought up back in the 70's. Check out the proto-artificer class from OD&D that even Gary himself forgot existed.
What? I thought AoO were only introduced into 2e? How'd they work?
>Can someone explain to me how all OSR games don't just devolve into 'mother may I?'
The secret is that there's nothing wrong with this. If you're coming from a rules-heavy game, where the expectation is that you're picking from a list of options that have already been tied down, then "mother, may I" can be like imposing on somebody for a special favor. It's swimming against the current. But when things are looser, and there's an expectation that much of the game rests on the GM's discretion, "mother, may I" is just interacting with the world the way you're supposed to. It's ultimately the GM's world and his call in any case, and it's foolish to try to tie him down by trying to delineate every possibility. A good GM is going to flourish without needing a three-volume reference encyclopedia of dictates, and no amount of rules is going to make a bad GM good.
mods are shit, what's new?
Artificer more like Fartificer
Who knew Gygax was a FOE
Do you guys use ability checks (roll d20 under stat) at all?
In Chainmail It was called "pass-through fire", if you moved though the line of site of another unit it could make a free attack.
In Eldritch Wizardry If a character withdrew from from melee range the enemy took a additional round of combat in which you can't respond.
Yes. But only because I use 4d4 with modified stat mods for chargen. If I was doing 3d6 I'd use saves.
>Chainmail
N O T
C A N O N
I like psionics, take a wild guess.
Whatever lets you sleep at night.
Holmes Basic had a crazy punishing AoO-like system; if you stepped back in combat the enemy gets a free swing with a bonus of +2 and your lose protection from shield.
>I like psionics
How? Seriously, how?
Unless you're talking about dark sun psionics, in which case that's pretty rad
How is Chainmail "not canon"?
How do you guys feel about using 3d6 instead of a d20?
For what? Saves? Roll under stats? Roll under your THAC0?
Ita not '74 and I'm not in Japan. I can lay my hands on polyhedra.
Is it better to use a smaller scale hexmap (2 miles per hex) so you can articulate geological landmarks and have more precise line of site or to use a larger scale and simply make note of landmarks and their general size and direction?
The thought of a large 6+ mile hex with only one interesting thing in it kills me, and 2 miles creates massive bloat.
Fundamentally breaks the game.
It took me a while, but I'm finally starting to come around to the non-Mad Max, Gamma World style post-apocalypse setting. You know; mutants, lost high-tech artifacts, primitive jungle world vibe. MCC is kinda crushing it. What else is good inspiration for this? Movies, especially.
Why not just put more things into the 6-mile-hex? Say, one big important thing and then one or two small things.
Everything
I like bell curves though
Screws with probabilities pretty badly. Noticeably, saving throws curves get compressed, so you now range from "ha, fat chance" to "why did you bother to roll?"
What do you guys feel about DCC? I personally like it quite a bit, though I wish it used traditional saves instead of 3e saves
>Can someone explain to me how all OSR games don't just devolve into 'mother may I?' with no defined system of resolving the majority of actions players might attempt in game the adjudication of those actions is left entirely and arbitrarily up to the GM and their own personal bias and opinions. A plan works based on if the GM feels it does, not by rules set up in the game world.
OSR games place a heavy weight on the shoulders of the GM because the game is almost entirely GM fiat. That means a good GM will make the game awesome and a bad GM will make it terrible. It is "Mother May I?" which is why you see a lot of modern games that react against this with defined mechanics for things normally left to the realm of the GM in OSR games--because too much GM fiat can produce terrible, unfun gameplay.
A better solution would be solid guidelines for adjudicating improvised actions and creating rules for actions that recur frequently in a game.
That's nothing that you can't houserule in.
You'll need to rework literally everything that runs off a d20 to make it work, but particularly saving throws
It's a neat system, but it's not an OSR system -- the saves are just a part of it.
The biggest thing is I love the idea of finding adventure sites by navigating landmarks by word of mouth/crude maps. 6+ mile hexes give me a lot of abstract room, but the map itself (even with larger hexes) cannot fit all of the landmarks (topos, rivers, paths, etc) as a drawing so it requires a greater degree of abstraction and notational shorthand (which I guess I'm asking for advice on how to organize my "directions" in that case).
How the hell do you guys fill every single hex of a hexcrawl with content? The most I can do is certain landmarks (mind you I'll make at least 18 land marks and each of them have a bit of interaction to do if the players are interested), and random encounters inbetween. How the fuck do you completely fill out a map like with unique places to go?
Why is it not OSR? I know about saves and apparently some people don't like deed dice (though I don't see how that changes anything). Also ascending AC I guess, but both of those don't really change much
I think it does OSR gameplay better than most retro-clones. It's incredibly fun.
It's because of the action dice and all the fucking tables that spells use.
2dX keep lowest (or highest) is a sexy distribution.
Yeah, 2e Psionics like Dark Sun are cool. OD&D and 1e Psionics are bit more unpalatable.
It's a joke based on the fact that almost no one used Chainmail with OD&D and even after Gygax bought the rights he still abandoned the rules to expand the alternate combat system.
Delightfully GURPSesque
Escape from New York
Mad Max
Judge Dredd (the comics, especially the Cursed Earth arc, and both movies)
Neither of those movies are similar to Gamma World.
Can't run DCC stuff with OSR systems, can't run OSR modules with DCC. Somebody a few threads back attempted to convert a DCC module to OSR standard by the seat of his pants and it was a nightmare.
It's a pretty terrible idea unless you significantly change the system. So let's take a starting character with a THAC0 of 19. Let's have that character strike at a guy in chain mail. That's 19 - AC 5 = 14 or over to hit, a 35% chance on a d20. On 3d6? 16.2%. Less than half as likely to hit.
But what happens if that guy has a shield? 30% chance on a d20, but only a 9.26% on 3d6. Less than one third as likely to hit.
Okay, now what if we're looking at a guy in plate mail with a shield? 20% chance on a d20, but only 1.85% on 3d6. Less than one tenth as likely to hit. And so your fighter becomes almost impervious to orcs and goblins.
Love the modules. The game seems fun, but I've no desire to run it. Would play in it if offered though.
Yes you can. Easily. You have to be not retarded.
>Can someone explain to me how all OSR games don't just devolve into 'mother may I?'
This being bad is a meme in the first place. With a bad referee, no rules can save you; with a good one, most rules are not necessary. Thus a game should only include the type of rules where adjudication is both tricky and critical -- or those where an established procedure makes things simpler and faster, as with hexcrawling.
The the old wisened dude giving the all clear thumbs up? It seems like nobody gives gob about the old guy still catching his breath. He's trying to tell everyone he's okay any no one even acknowledges it. I feel pity for the old guy. I want to snap him up out of there and put him in an adventure with him at the helm. One final ride into the sunset, in charge and in full control.
How do either of those make it incompatable with OSR modules?
You don't need to use spell tables either, they're there if you want randomness, you could just have spells use the most average effect
Tell me more user
Yeah, 2e Psionics like Dark Sun are cool. OD&D and 1e Psionics are bit more unpalatable.
Alright, so you're not clinically insane. I don't know if anyone actually used OD&D / 1e psionics, and if they did I genuinely feel bad for them
>Delightfully GURPSesque
That's the point
That's why you helped the guy trying to do the conversion and showed him how to do it right, huh?
Oh wait, that never happened, because it's not that easy and you know it.
Decent game that gets bogged down by table fetishism and the 3e system also not OSR
goodman-games.com
>Broncosaurus Rex is a 3.5e system, so most of the conversion work was about getting the right feel for DCC RPG
$0.01 had been deposited into your Goodman Games account.
They don't, it's everything else. Stuff like luck saves and DC this and that checks, and the fact that all the number scales are different.
>It's a joke based on the fact that almost no one used Chainmail with OD&D
Didn't it get like 15 reprints?
Old dude probably is just there to show those newbies how its done
>number scales
Really? 'Cause the hit points and HP seem to match up last time I looked at the rulebook, going from 12 for leather to 18 for plate and shield.
Call it- No Deities for Old Men.
"You can't build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts."
—Mishra, probably
The Magic system tried so hard to be different it came out a fucking mess that gets incredibly annoying after a couple of seasons.
>output 2@2d6
Is 2d6, keep lowest.
>output 2@2d8
Is 2d8, keep lowest.
>output 1@2d6
Is 2d6, keep highest.
Etc.
>Okay, now what if we're looking at a guy in plate mail with a shield? 20% chance on a d20, but only 1.85% on 3d6.
Let me underscore this. You're going from 1 in 5 attacks hitting to less than 1 in 50.
That would be a really cool party to join and game to play. You have to role a level 12 at least character that's been retired and broken down for years at that point, old loyalties literally pulling your old armor on for you. Saddling that hateful old nag of a warhorse one more time..
>Let me underscore this. You're going from 1 in 5 attacks hitting to less than 1 in 50.
Good, that's what OSR should be
Usually I have two sentences to a paragraph that acts as a rough outline to what's going on in the hex/adventure site and that it will get bigger or detailed as needed.
Beetle, giant: Init -2; Atk mandibles +3 melee (1d4+2); AC 15; HD 2d8+2; MV 30’ or climb 20’; Act 1d20; SP varies; SV Fort +1, Ref +0, Will -3; AL N.
is
Beetle, giant: Init -2, Armor (unarmored+5), Movement (Your systems combat speed), 2 Hit Die (d8) +2, bite 1d4+2, Morale (9+Will), Save as Fighter of HD level (2), AL N.
I am sorry you are retarded and cannot do this.
>OD&D and 1e Psionics are bit more unpalatable.
It works fine. The only unusable part is the combat.
>Good, that's what OSR should be
50 rounds of combat in order to finally hit, or fighters who are nigh impervious to attacks? Because neither sounds very OSR to me.
>Didn't it get like 15 reprints?
That's not a good metric for anything considering the wildly varying quantity a print run can consist of and the fact that pre-Williams TSR (which did most of the reprints) was in the shithouse when it got bought out.
That was the 'idea' upon commencement of the expedition. Since then, it has turned into a constant torment and grind. It takes everything the old fart can do not to appear on the verge of totally loosing his shit at every challenge, which he most certainly is. He has an overflowing trunk of helpful trinkets.. 1300 leagues to the West. Or was it North.. No, it was Northwest.
NAYRT, but what exactly does Init -2 mean in an osr system. And how'd you arrive at morale being 9+will (and what even is will, their will save mod)? Also, is there a good mapping of figuring out what save they're strongest in to what class they should save as? Or just fuck it and make them all save as generic monsters.
Now convert a creature with more than 1 action die or an ability with a DC.
Congratulations, you've discovered that it's possible to convert a 3e statblock to real D&D. Now convert a fucking module and get back to me, because DCC modules are not usable without spending time converting them, which means they're not OSR modules.
Goodman Games doesn't call DCC OSR I don't know why you fanboys insist on pretending it is. It's making the /osrg/'s tolerance of your shit look shortsighted.
So, you want to run a game with a topographical map so you can force the party to walk around the mountain in order to see the adventure site?
>needing to convert monsters to use them in OSR games
That alone proves it's not OSR.
The order is different, it adds initiative modifiers, and has more detailed saves. All the same info is there.
Much better!
>I don't think that's too much to ask.
And YET...
Continuously. Works out just fine.
Stuff several interesting things per 6 mile hex and use a random encounter table that also features terrain, situations, etc. Makes everything feel denser.
It takes fucking AGES, I'll tell you that. Also, check out Dunkey's advice 2 threads back:
As the guy who's been posting it, I've yet to be banned. The only thing taking it down is the sheer volume of reports.
Demonstrating the fucking tedium of converting middling material to what is should be anyway is like watching germophobes cleaning public toilets. Only a sick fuck would participate in such an abhorrent activity and relish it. Relish. Great word.
>Fartificer
What?
Any ideas for when you've already got hexes established (and you don't want to change them 'cause it took fucking forever) and need to stick stuff in them?
Nothing, it's just a joke in which one merges the words "fart" and "artificier."
Reduce 2 from it's combat initiative. 9 = ML base before +3 maxes out at 12. Will comes from it's DCC stat.
Multiple Action Dice = No of attacks. This is not unseen in OSR. Ability is just a special attack.
Replace DC checks with Ability Roll under or your systems skill abilities.
I'm sorry you are all retarded and cannot do this.
Emphasis on the CIE. FartifiCEr.
It adds an air of dignity to it.
Yeah, I don't get why some people are sperging out over this. Who can make a homebrew, building a hexcrawl, or doing a lot of the other work OSR stuff often calls for, but becomes pants-shitting retarded when faced with a good adventure and a little conversion work? They're great modules, worth the time (especially since there's nothing forcing you to be 100% accurate in your conversions).
I'm using a format that goes:
Terrain: 1 or 2 sentences
Obvious feature: 2-3 sentences
Hidden feature: 1-2 sentences
For "major" hexes, like cities, all 3 entries get replaced with a longer entry and maybe a map on the overleaf. Anything with a mini-dungeon gets a one-page minidungeon on the overleaf.
Does that help? Maybe give me some examples?