Be Wizard in the Forgotten Realms

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

Be Wizard in the Forgotten Realms
Get born into the wrong country or raised in the wrong religion, like Thay or as one of the Zhents
Have to spend your entire life knowing that the goddess of magic hates you and that for all of your study and talent she's personally empowered a septet or so of silver-haired Mary Sues to curbstomp you if you ever show up on their radar
to reiterate, the Goddess of Magic goes out of her way to stop new archmagi outside the control of her own kids or immediate allies from rising up, forcing them to either go underground or join up with a big organization that usually has an Evil alignment majority in it

But wait! The Spellplague just happened, and she's dead now! You're finally free, surely now some impartial, understanding god will

Oh no, there's a NEW Mystra
She weakens your spells for being the wrong alignment until the other gods outright bully her and her boyfriend, Death himself, into neutrality
then she fucks it all up again

Is Mystra the worst deity ever devised?

All urls found in this thread:

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Storm_Silverhand
youtu.be/Kl1rroJOZzw
youtube.com/watch?v=garuRIyrS4w

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

Can you avoid being assassinated by wizards if you convert to Mystara's religion or whatever? I mean, being assassinated by her wizards, maybe not by the wizards who trained you.

Booteefool
Booteefool

As far as Forgotten Realms goes, that would be Shevarash, god of hate crimes against the dark elves, or as he calls them, “darkies.” His killed his own hardass of a champion because he eventually fell in love with a good-aligned drow woman. Shevarash is chaotic good.

TechHater
TechHater

Be Wizard in the Forgotten Realms

No.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

No he isn't, he's CN. Shevarash is a pretty interesting foil to the otherwise CG (with the exception of Fenmarel "Chastity Cage" M-something) Seldarine

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

If you do you have to suck the Chosens' dicks and the Harpers' dicks and just accept that they'll always be better than you. The thing is, you can succeed without it, Helm and a bunch of other gods have personally vowed to bully Mystra if she starts getting ideas about actually cutting off magic to people for not kissing her ass...but you'll do it while fighting her agents.

This is the Simbul, one of the Seven Daughters of Mystra. Despite being a ridiculous Sorc/Wiz multiclass she has a combined level in 3.5 of something like 25. She took over a kingdom pretty casually just by being friends with the former royal family, instituted a de-facto matriarchal cult of personality based around her and her circle of apprentices. Her kingdom is near the magocracy of Thay, which despite its habitual infighting and ruthlessness is arguably the best at advancing the production of low-cost magic items. The Simbul spends her days hunting down Thayvian Wizards who might have the potential to become strong, and who aren't so entrenched in the order of the Red Wizards of Thay that it would be difficult to reach them. She was killing so many Wizards even Elminster was like "damn girl slow down", but after he started fucking her (yes, she was fucking Elminster until 4e or so) he stopped caring.

The Goddess of Magic supports Wizard genocide and gives superpowers like the Flame of Mystra to people who genocide Wizards for being from the wrong country. In fact, as I said earlier, virtually every named archmage is either one of her Chosen, a sworn enemy of her cult protected by an organization sworn to another god or country-level magocracy, so old that they barely interact with the world, are in hiding, or are married to/sworn to serve one of her Chosen.

Firespawn
Firespawn

Is that the one who THOT BEGONE'd an elvish maiden so hard she became the first harpy?

Around drow, kill them now!

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

God, I hate the Harpers so much. They reek of Developer Darling.

happy_sad
happy_sad

Forgotten Realms
Wizard
Now see THATS where you made your first mistake

Emberfire
Emberfire

Is that the one who THOT BEGONE'd an elvish maiden so hard she became the first harpy?
I don't know. He's the retarded one who's a hermit, and briefly was on Araushnee's side before she became Lolth. There's some additional fluff about how only Sehanine can make him come out of his autistic basement to talk with the rest of the pantheon. Basically virgin NEET elf god.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

Rememeber when Forgotten Realms was at the edge of invdnting the printing press, the renaissance, and the gunpowder revolution?

hairygrape
hairygrape

Didn't the Harpers get rid of those?

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

I don't even know who the Harper's are but reading this thread is making me hate them

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Source? I want to run a similar setting.

King_Martha
King_Martha

be mortal in Points of Light
Attempt to find ways to not die
Curbstomped by creepy death cult the rest of the gods tolerate for some reason
Go to shadowfell after death
Judged by immortal servitors of the goddess of fucking people up for trying to become immortal

Unrelatedly
Such a fucking cold bitch the god of death decided to bone her
Proceeded to take all his shit, kill him, erase her own name in a hissyfit, and move to BFE
All so the surroundings can match her emoness
Rest of the gods have to kiss her ass if they want to raise ANYONE

Mystra's probably worse, but there's like 200 times more stuff written about her.

iluvmen
iluvmen

Didn't Mystra hate the Thayan wizards because they ruled their nation without the consent of the people, outright enslaved a small number of them, and used them as sacrificial spell components sometimes? Like they just gave magic users everywhere a shit name. Same with Zhentarim wizards. Setting an edict to kill everyone in a tyrannical government is pretty reasonable.
the Goddess of Magic goes out of her way to stop new archmagi outside the control of her own kids or immediate allies
Citation extremely fucking needed. I never got the impression you'd end up on Mystra's hit list unless you damaged the Weave or did something like enslaving a large number of people.

Emberfire
Emberfire

Harpers are basically "good guy anarchists" who topple monarchies and governments they believe might either unfairly oppress others, or use their power to conquer others. This often includes people who create radical new inventions that might upset the power balance in the world.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

They absolutely do. They're basically the Crane Shinobi from old-age L5R, "it's okay for us to do completely taboo stuff that defines evil in our culture because the devs say we're the designated good guys."

In this case, they're a powerful organization of spies and assassins supported by all the setting's Designated Good Guys whose job is to supposedly "fight all the bad guys and keep all of the good guys BESIDES US from solving enough problems to upset the status quo, btw we're totally not Lawful Neutral and we'll say we lean Chaotic Good if anything because that's more fashionable." Oh, and guess what? Their leaders are the Simbul's sisters, more Chosen of Mystra. Mostly what they seem to do is powermongering and fighting the Zhents, who are basically Cobra Commandos that worship Bane, a mortal tyrant who fought his way to godhood with two other party members who fucked up and died during the Time of Troubles. By contrast, both Mystra and Midnight who became nu-Mystra were straight-up handed godhood.

The only good depiction of the Harpers was in Baldur's Gate II where they were depicted as backstabbing, easily corrupted, ruthless assholes...up until the point where Elminster shows up, hands you a magic item, and says "those guys totally weren't True Scotsmen".

MPmaster
MPmaster

to reiterate, the Goddess of Magic goes out of her way to stop new archmagi outside the control of her own kids or immediate allies from rising up, forcing them to either go underground or join up with a big organization that usually has an Evil alignment majority in it

If you weren't autistic you would have realized how great of a character motivation this is for a murderhobo.

King_Martha
King_Martha

stop those who might use their power to conquer others
run by members of a family whose average level is 20 and basically walk into rulership wherever they go.

The fact that they're all retarded multiclasses with no actual pure Wizards among them and their main enemies are straight Wizards who stay on an even keel by not being retarded multiclasses despite being much lower level says a lot, frankly.

Pic related, pretty sure she's a Bard/Ranger/Sorceress

idontknow
idontknow

Mystra deserved the smiting Helm gave her

hairygrape
hairygrape

You're really hitting the biggest gripes about Faerun on the head with these posts; the setting is one where your adventurer doesn't matter, where acts of heroism and derring-do are only possible because the local developer OC was too busy fucking the avatar of a goddess to care (and no, silly boys, you PCs aren't allowed to fuck them!)

SniperGod
SniperGod

Pic related, pretty sure she's a Bard/Ranger/Sorceress

Whatever she is, she's got some huge boobs considering how far they're pressing out even with the weight of chain pushing them down. Seriously, those things are probably the size of her head.

SniperWish
SniperWish

If it was played straight it would honestly be pretty interesting, toppling Mystra would be a neat end in and of itself...but Forgotten Realms is notorious for the fact that whenever someone tries to change the status quo the gods sit them down and go "no, this is the way things are forever". Mystra is kind of an exception because the other gods were willing to do this to her when she got grabby, but she has all the hallmarks of developer favoritism and the untouchability that goes with it. It's about on par with the "anyone who doesn't like kenders is a bad person" stuff, "anyone who disagrees with Mystra is probably an asshole with a future as a lich".

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

God, this is so true. I generally like FR except for bullshit like this, and I always remove it from my campaigns and warn players never to bring up any of this crap in my games.

Evilember
Evilember

Mystra hate the Thayan wizards because they ruled their nation without the consent of the people
Somebody needs to bitch-slap you real bad.

farquit
farquit

This. They have absolutely no competition aside from the people who were so evil and so hard that they managed to create equally restrictive organizations or hide somewhere so as not to piss off the Chosen.

By the way, you can fuck at least one of the Sisters...in theory. The Queen of Silverymoon is a huge slut who loves orgies and naked parties, according to Ed Greenwood, but when Drizzt Do'Urden started having chemistry with her that shit got nixed with such hastiness that it had a distinct feel of the devs telling R.A. Salvatore that non-developer named characters can't touch that pussy.

That's a good point but I know for a fact her armor is mithril ultra-light elf forged stuff so she can cast arcane spells without penalty in 3.5. Her actual multiclass is...Rogue 1, Fighter 4, Bard 8, Sorcerer 12, Harper Agent 3. Total levels, 28. Alignment, Chaotic Good. Here's her wiki entry, tell me if you see signs of Mary Sue or not.

By the way, she's immune to naturally occuring lightning for no real reason.

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Storm_Silverhand

SniperWish
SniperWish

FR seems more like a setting to steal from than one to actually run things in.
That one fucker that made a few dozen clones and fucked up dying so they all woke up
The gods were being stupid and got smote, so now they're running around mortallands and trying desperately not to get shanked
There's a tangle of wrongmagic opposing the tangle of rightmagic, deal with it
Some fucking gnomes just invented guns
A really bored lich makes the entire skeleton of a rival into his phylactery, then splits it up using magic so he has 206 phylacteries (Eat your heart out, Voldy)
Giant snake monster dudes that warp their minions on the fly
Turns out the magic god position just got passed on and the new one is a shitty fit, figure out how to fix it or take advantage of the situation

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

Yet the Harpers support plenty of royal families and her Chosen aren't exactly advocating for democracy. In fact, Mystra took the form of an Evil-aligned wizard for many years so she could enslave and have weird magic bondage sex with Elminster while tutoring him without his knowledge. Back then she was Neutral-aligned, she didn't have a problem with that kind of behavior so much as she had a problem with powerful spellcasters venerating the pursuit of magic over kissing her ass personally. It would be like if Helm's primary charge to his clerics was to beat up any watchmen or guards who didn't wear his holy symbol, or Tormite Paladins started jihading literally every other kind of Paladin.

WebTool
WebTool

Some fucking gnomes just invented guns
Gnomish armies conquer half the sword coast
Gnomish colonial outposts everywhere

Now there's a campaign idea!

StonedTime
StonedTime

Damn shame Thay had to stop being Asian to make room for Oriental Adventures.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

What is the absolute strongest woman in FR a male PC has a shot at having sex with, or even developing a relationship with?

Illusionz
Illusionz

Probably better that way, otherwise now WOTC would be burning any Thay books and retconning them since:

evil yellow peril is white supremacy RACISMMMMM'KAY

w8t4u
w8t4u

BG 2's depiction is based on what they were supposed to be according to Greenwood.
The Harper's were a secret organization BECAUSE they were basically anarchists who wanted to destroy anything and everything that could lead to folks getting too strong or influential.
Early on it was implied half of the trouble on the sword coast (back when the sword coast was described as continually torn up by bandits, raiders, and barons who wanted to declare their own mini-nations), was caused by Harper meddling because they feared what would happen if another player as powerful as Baldur's Gate or Waterdeep got established in the area, as it might lead to the most powerful nation state ever if it could get an alliance going!

I suspect the amount of writers who said "Woah harpers are cool!" plus the fact TSR pushed greenwood to have clear cut good guys and clear cut saturday morning cartoon villains, led to the changes we see with them being publicly accepted and seen as a good thing and the ultimate good guys who never do anything wrong.

There was a reason that the Vilhon Reach set mentions that being associated with the Harpers was seen as worse than being associated with the Red Wizards there.

likme
likme

My solution, personally, is ignoring their given stats and dev favoritism, and to play it straight what they are. People are suspicious of the Harpers and local authorities work to drive them out like they would any other mafia, lower the level of each Sister by 10 and make them choose an actual class, portray actual harm done by them realistically. For example, let's say a particular Duke of Baldur's Gate manages to unite the surrounding countryside under his banner and raises a huge army to conquer the Sword Coast and create a unified Sword Kingdom. The Harpers do what they do and infiltrate a concubine into his arms who then infiltrates her poisoner hairpin into his heart with a smug little poem because that's how Harpers do. Consequently instead of returning to the status quo, the Sword Coast is riven into two factions, pro-Duke loyalists who serve the old Duke's young son and blame Waterdeep for its connections to the Chosen of Mystra and the Harpers via Khelben Blackstaff, and anti-Duke rebels who might as well be Waterdhavian shills and agents.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

Probably Elminster during one of his "phases"

SniperWish
SniperWish

The rot goes deeper than that. Remember in Neverwinter Nights how your level 1 adventurer is told to go solve the plague on his own while the high-level Paladin and Cleric on retainer sit around in the temple (and it's made apparent immediately that their spells don't work on the plague), and how in the next chapter you get a "spymaster" who had no idea about all the traitors in chapter 1 and can only give you the same vague rumors you get from your henchmen and nearby NPCs? The whole mentality of sitting on your hands because you can't be bothered seeps down to EVERYONE!

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

Nooooooo, user, stahp! You know that's not how real life works! If you kill the Duke than the idea dies with him, just like Brutus killing Julius Caesar saved Rome from becoming an Empire!

FastChef
FastChef

Now I know that I'll play a Fighter/Vengance paladin whose wizard wife was murdered my the Mystra cult.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Name him Max.

"She wasn't a witch, she was my wife!"

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

Setting an edict to kill everyone in a tyrannical government is pretty reasonable.

Yes, if you're the God of Justice or the God of Freedom or the God of Rebellions, all of which exist in setting. The Goddess of Magic is, by her very role, supposed to be impartial, and it's made clear several times that her actual gripe is that they don't bow down to Elminster and the Sisters. As has already been said, your options are to kneel or become so ruthless that you head straight for Eviltown to survive.

Spamalot
Spamalot

Yes.

AD&D 2e established that they were becoming a thing and that the technology had become stable enough to share outside of the places of discovery and that it would be a handful of years before printed books and guns became widespread. 3e, which took place a few years later, hit the reset button on that and said all of that tech was still experimental at best and just pretend it doesn't exist if you'd prefer that.
Grand History of the Realms (3.5e) has an excerpt about the Harpers disguising one of the seven sisters as a famous gnomish prostitute so she can sneak in, fuck a bunch of gnomes, and destroy the entire gun making facility and possibly kill all the people who know how to make them, DESPITE the fact that Thay has already been established to have cannons capable of firing magical artillery anyway.

Forgotten Realms Adventures I think was the title.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

What books should I read to get a good understanding of the shittery of the Harpers, the Chosen, the Seven, and Mystra?

iluvmen
iluvmen

It's in one of the Elminster books, the one where he meets the Simbul because he, without Mystra's approval, is trying to get her to slow down on murdering random young Red Wizards who have the potential to become new Zulkirs. No, she doesn't go after Szass Tam, she goes after 'prentice boys who've invented more efficient methods of enchanting.

likme
likme

A female PC.

Or if you don't care about consent, whoever the strongest female NPC your character's capable of beating in a fight.

Methnerd
Methnerd

A female FR video game character, guaranteed. Maybe a dragon?

TreeEater
TreeEater

Probably a Song Dragon.

Firespawn
Firespawn

So they are the Communists of Forgotten Realms.

One more reason to kill them all.

DeathDog
DeathDog

The princess/regent of Cormyr had a scene where she invited one of her guards to fuck her in the woods. You could probably get in on that, she's not one of the Chosen so her muff isn't off-limits, royal blood doesn't matter one whit.

They portray them all as somewhat slavic or Mediterranean whites now. Asians live in Kara-Tur and Shao-whatever.

whereismyname
whereismyname

He actually thinks that any of the FR deities are unbiased or natural

Yeah I mean, its so weird, why they wouldnt have shitty personalities like Nordic and Greek Deities they are confirmed to be based on. Makes no sense, right?

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

The princess/regent of Cormyr had a scene where she invited one of her guards to fuck her in the woods.

Isn't she queen, now?

Bidwell
Bidwell

Check'd and kek'd

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

So... We can destroy the Harpers with memes?

WebTool
WebTool

The princess/regent of Cormyr had a scene where she invited one of her guards to fuck her in the woods.
Doesn't Volo casually mention that she fucks anyone who's got some muscle and a big dick?

I vaguely recall a book where she outs herself as a slut in front of a bunch of people just to piss off her dad, before the whole running away from home to become an adventurer thing.

I also vaguely recall that she fucked her half-brother, and Azoun had the bastard black bagged

No, her sister had a son, so she served as Regent during 3.5e and then passed the throne on once the boy got old enough

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

but she has all the hallmarks of developer favoritism
Everytime a writer tries something autistic screeching from the fanbase ensues
no no no guys, its dev favouritism

It is amazing how retarded someone becomes when it comes up to making up reasons why you dont like something. I get it you dont like Mystra but there are like a million of legitimate reasons not to like something instead of pretending to be retarded, you know.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

We can only hope

happy_sad
happy_sad

Doesn't Volo casually mention that she fucks anyone who's got some muscle and a big dick?

Dex-martials BTFO.

TreeEater
TreeEater

So he basically made fantasy Black Bloc anarchists complete with them being, viewed in a nonpolitical way, fucking awful people who do fucking awful things, and because they were shiny and pretty and fit that YA romantic fantasy aesthetic and were all Chaotic musicians the lesser authors and devs thought they were heroes?

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

If you want to know True AD&D™ and also the truth of the Harpers, you must read the final 2E rulebook: Cloak & Dagger by Eric L. Boyd / Steven Schend / Sean K. Reynolds. Harpers did 3E.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

because they were shiny and pretty and fit that YA romantic fantasy aesthetic and were all Chaotic musicians the lesser authors and devs thought they were heroes?

Yes. Welcome to Forgotten Realms, where the world is stagnant and PCs don't matter.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

Forgotten Realms is generally a shitty setting, it makes me sad that WotC is hell bent on pushing it as the vanilla setting when its retarded cosmology clashes and at times even directly contradicts other better and longer standing cosmological traditions in the franchise.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Are you me? I hated her for the same reasons, she was so obviously some dev's waifu and designed to be completely untouchable.

MPmaster
MPmaster

Wait, did the Harpers destroy Lantan!?

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

Imagine a world where WotC pushed Eberron as the default setting for 5e.

Playboyize
Playboyize

I don't think it really lines up very naturally with Ebberon. I mean, look at all the trouble they've had making an artificer that doesn't suck.

Evilember
Evilember

That would be even worse. Eberron as a default setting would basically require the system to be built on expecting magic items to go out like candy.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

she was so obviously some dev's waifu

Mearls. She was Mearls's waifu.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

somewhat slavic or Mediterranean whites now.

So wait they are fantasy Croats now?

whereismyname
whereismyname

The difference is that people successfully give her the finger all the time, she doesn't have NPCs ten levels above the usual cap on call running shit for her, every Archlich Epic Destiny, or Demigod Epic Destiny, or any of the countless others that made you immortal were putting your dick in her face and waggling it vigorously.

I'm pretty sure there was an ED for serving her that, naturally, let you live forever too.

Yeah, guns are a definite threat to Mystra. Funny how Halruaa, home of airships, got fucked up out of nowhere too.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

That's right, murdering a bunch of innocent inventors who didn't even know they were pissing in your cheerios for upsetting your power structure is a Chaotic Good act!

Lunatick
Lunatick

Goddess of Death and spookiness without being explicitly evil
Doesn't require active worship, great for atheist players or Westerners turned off by religion
She's a woman, instant brownie points
Symbol is a Raven, which are like... Deep and intelligent
Doesn't have a name, goes by title making it easier to remember

Really, you can see why the developers love her.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

Eberron is a shit frankenstein-esque setting that stole interesting bits from FR and other shit and failed to implement them properly or made them absolutely mundane.
Shitting on FR and in the same breath praising Eberron is a sure way of telling that someone is legitimately retarded with no sense of self-awareness.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

They killed hundreds... To save thousands!

Insert shitty poem here

cum2soon
cum2soon

I'm pretty sure there was an ED for serving her that, naturally, let you live forever too.

Well, yeah. Rule #1 with the Raven Queen: She's a Hypocrite. This isn't some alternate interpretation stuff, that's legitimately how she's presented in universe.

Undead are bad
Save for the undead I specifically made.

You can't live forever.
Unless I let you.

Fate must be obeyed.
Unless it's a threat to me.

Techpill
Techpill

There is also an ED for basically organising an uprising in death itself to overthrow the Raven Queen and install a less biased system for death.

cum2soon
cum2soon

They should just make Greyhawk or Mystara the default setting, they are the only ones that dont introduce conflicting shit to the wheel cosmology

w8t4u
w8t4u

People wanted the Wall of the Faithless torn down to such an extent that there was a whole video game about it and how did it end? Kelemvor shows up and goes "fuck no you can't." There's autistic screeching from the people at the top of the pyramid where FR is concerned, and it grows louder any time someone tries to change something. Occasionally they wreck everything on purpose to go "IS THIS WHAT YOU WANTED!? NO? GOOD, WE'LL FIX IT, NOW SHUT UP."

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

How will Dexfags EVER recover???

Emberfire
Emberfire

That fatass lich with the 206 phylacteries is my personal hero.

eGremlin
eGremlin

Is Helm the most Chad god in FR?

FastChef
FastChef

You will never spitroast a novel character in a scenario that is within the realm of canon.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

Not explicitly, but they tap the same vein as modern commies do.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

Mystra tries to Mary Sue her way around Helm
Dies

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

Helm exists, plus FR's gods have actual oversight in the form of Ao.

Soft_member
Soft_member

And remember, if you say she's a whore you can't be good-aligned.

Bidwell
Bidwell

That's 100% what happened. She tried to do the whole "I'll just smile mysteriously, pat him on the head, and walk past that silly boy back into the heavens because a WOMAN has to keep working while these SILLY SWEETIES are punished for stealing the Tablets of Fate."

Then Helm cuts her in half.

TreeEater
TreeEater

The only people who’d call her a whore are scrawny Dexfags and nerds, anyway.

Skullbone
Skullbone

With his hand no less. IIRC he doesn't even use a sword, just anime punches her.

Don't forget she obliterated the soul of a little girl first.

Flameblow
Flameblow

Have a (You) for baby's first shitpost.

SniperWish
SniperWish

You're kind of underselling just how huge on the asshole scale the Thayans and Zhents are

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

I'm pretty sure in 5e most of the uber-NPCs are dead and buried, but 3.5 was peak retardation for FR.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

I kind of always assumed he was gay.

eGremlin
eGremlin

Imagine a world where DnD is even shittier than it is already, somehow.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

You mean the "we did everything in reverse, aren't we creative" steampunk shitpile?

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Most people in this hobby tend to come across as a little queer.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

Greyhawk

girlDog
girlDog

It's called homebrewing settings, you should try it sometime. That way, at least you can have your terrible shit instead of the terrible shit of a bunch of nerds you hate.

viagrandad
viagrandad

Don't forget that she's back now in 5e and the Shadar-Kai are now her personal elvish pets, and they're basically Drow but better in every way and also Pale Gothick Elves of Tragedye and Magicke who use piercings to define their individuality.

Bidwell
Bidwell

What? Really? Tell me more!

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

Helm, moments before bisecting the thot of magic

Snarelure
Snarelure

I am not surprised that people who hate FR hate it because they themselves are creatively bankrupt.

invention gets introduced that levels the playing field between wizards and normal people
Harpers which are basically controlled by powerful Wizard and his demigod-friends see it as a threat
spec ops against people and facilities where invention gets researched/produced get hit
Invention gets outlawed

You literally have your plot-ideas spelled and for you and the only thing you people can do is bitch and moan switching between FR IS BAD BECAUSE ITS INHABITANTS ARE TOO GOOD and FR IS BAD BECAUSE THE GOOD INHABITANTS DO BAD THINGS.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

You'd think a level 25+ character could just...find a more nuanced solution than disguising as a prostitute and then murdering everyone just like the plot of EVERY FEMALE-CENTRIC ACTION MOVIE EVER. Find some magical way to make the big demonstration of the new guns backfire and convince people they're prone to exploding or misfires, discredit the inventors, wipe the idea from their minds with the ninth-level spells you have access to. Something creative. That's the worst part, it's the kind of solution giggling middle-aged female authors who want to be Badass Rebelle Chix would come up with and be applauded by all the male colleagues who don't want the HR Lady to have a talk with them.

SniperGod
SniperGod

As opposed to the "we did everything in reverse, aren't we creative" postapocalyptic shitpile Dark Sun?

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

See

The problem is that THIS IS PRESENTED AS A GOOD DEED BY GOOD PEOPLE WITH NO MORAL GREY AREA.

WebTool
WebTool

Keepers of the Everflow.

A constant stream of spirits passes through the Shadowfell—part of a grand procession of life, death, and rebirth known to a few ascetics as the everflow. Those who believe in the everflow also believe that it was once intended to return souls back to the world for a new lease on life. According to legend, the dread god Nerull usurped the everflow by hoarding the spirits of the dead. His successor, the Raven Queen, only partly undid the damage done by the fallen god, cutting the everflow short and passing judgment on mortal souls as she sees fit.
The select few who have glimpsed this truth have chosen to correct the course of the everflow. To do this, the Keepers of the Everflow must find a mighty construct hidden deep in the darklands of the Shadowfell—the great Spirit Wheel, set in motion by the actions of the first Keepers. If they complete their work, the everflow will trickle away from the Raven Queen’s domain as the procession of souls is redirected from the road to Letherna back into the world. The existence of the Keepers of the Everflow is an affront to the god of death, and she will stop at nothing until the faithful of this upstart order are all held in her wintry grasp.

The natural state of the 4e setting? Doesn't actually NEED a god or judge of the dead. It's a setting of reincarnation and karma. The Raven Queen refuses to fix a system that would have her be reduced to just being the goddess of Winter and Fate, rather than Winter, Fate and Death.

5e really didn't get Shader-Kai...among other things the fact that they are HUMANS, not Elves. That's not a small change.

RumChicken
RumChicken

Yes, exactly! For all of its faults, Forgotten Realms is actually fantasy and has some good, flavorful stuff when you scoop away the bullshit...but it has far too many city states and they are far, far too safe from actual countries.

StonedTime
StonedTime

Tiamat has mated with mortals to create half-dragons, so probably her. Just get her out of Avernus.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

I’m just miffed I can’t play a High Elf without being a huge faggot.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

Helm is the definition of unbiased. 100% pure lawful neutral amazing.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

The fact that they're all retarded multiclasses with no actual pure Wizards among them and their main enemies are straight Wizards who stay on an even keel by not being retarded multiclasses despite being much lower level says a lot, frankly.

This is actually pretty clever way of mechanics reinforcing fiction... although probably entirely unintentional.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

Just give him the flaw "Secretly Not Gay".

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

People wanted the Wall of the Faithless torn down to such an extent
Because "people" dont know shit. The WOTC writers are secondaries like you so they dont even remember the purpose of the wall of the faithless had and why it is important.

Kelemvor shows up and goes "fuck no you can't."
Which as said, shows how much everyone involved with Wizards knows their shit.

here's autistic screeching from the people at the top of the pyramid where FR is concerned, and it grows louder any time someone tries to change something. Occasionally they wreck everything on purpose to go "IS THIS WHAT YOU WANTED!? NO? GOOD, WE'LL FIX IT, NOW SHUT UP."
So you are telling me that the creative output of Wizards has been terrible ever since they took over just like everyone knows. WOW. Tell me more things I already know.

You can say what you want about TSR but at least they managed to be consistent with FR despite all the fucking drama involving in it. Wizards on the other hand makes absolutely retarded changes, then wonders that people didn't like it and THEN roll it back half-heartedly after they already shit the bad.

farquit
farquit

Personally, my group just takes forgotten realms and the sword coast and does whatever want with it. It helps that only the DM and I actually know anything, so we can throw out casual references when they come up, but ignore everything when it isn't needed. Having an on-hand "legendary wizard" that people have heard of, or random town names to use is a boon.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

She's emphatically a slut. Would still hit it for the novelty of boning royalty, but she is 100% pure weapons-grade Princess Thot.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

There's a setting where that's even possible?

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

what hes tryin to say is that the wall of faith was a load-bearing element in the cosmos of the realms as much as the well of souls

Methshot
Methshot

Wall of the Faithless
The vast majority of references to the wall have no idea what the fuck it is. I see posts about atheism, or pissing of one god, or just not worshiping actively relating whatsoever to the wall, but that's just wrong.
The wall is explicitly reserved for those that NO GOD, out of the easily hundreds, is willing to touch you with a 10 foot pole. You need to be on some next level shit to get thrown in.
Random farmer hates the god of weather? Farming god will take ya.
Burn down an orphanage or 10? Man you got OPTIONS!
Molest depictions of every god you come across, your good, come on in.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

Oh I didn't forget. Even his official image has him removing thots.

Evilember
Evilember

"What are you going to do, punch me in half?"
t. thot punched in half

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Warhammer Fantasy.

RumChicken
RumChicken

You mean the people who were so bad at their jobs that it made the gods become mortals and had to change the whole concept of how they get believers continue to be bad at their hobs?

NO
FUCKING
WAY

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

They're pretty upfront about being assholes. Hypocrisy is one of the hardest sins to forgive.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

oh no he pointed how much of a retard I am
I better deflect!

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

Oh no, I completely agree with you that she’s a massive slut, I’m saying the only people that would actually *call* her a slut are the sorry sods she doesn’t want to bone. Sour grapes and all that.

whereismyname
whereismyname

On Midsummer, when the goddess Mystra—who had spirited away a portion of her divine power in the realms, which she then recovered once the gods were cast from the heavens—attempted to pass him without the Tablets, she was turned back by the Watcher, and when she forcibly tried to pass the Watcher, he destroyed her, in the skies north of Arabel.
This action had enormous repercussions for Helm. Whilst it put off any of the other earthbound deities attempting the same action, it also caused the other deities and mortals alike to hold Helm in great contempt (surprisingly however, in the South, Helm's following remained strong).
Why?
She literally defied divine rules, fuck her. What is the point of Ao if nobody's going to actually listen to him?

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

HIS IS PRESENTED AS A GOOD DEED BY GOOD PEOPLE WITH NO MORAL GREY AREA.
[CITATION NEEDED]

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

That face on Helm
[Disdain for Mages]

Lunatick
Lunatick

That's what its SUPPOSED to be. That's not what it is in the lore.

Chauntea's chosen
spends his whole life being the best farmer ever
once he dies he will have a place at his goddess' side
catches a fever on his deathbed
goes delirious and batshit insane
renounces Chauntea in his delirium right before he dies
LOL YOU DON'T WORSHIP A GOD INTO THE WALL YOU GO
NO HIS SICKNESS DOESN'T MAKE IT NOT COUNT OR GET HIM OUT CHAUNTEA YOU JUST WASTED 80 YEARS ON HIM LOL

Easily the worst bit of fluff about FR. Just so needlessly spiteful.

Booteefool
Booteefool

They are considered a good organization, their opponents are almost always listed as evil, and they are generally the protagonists allies in some way.

King_Martha
King_Martha

To be fair, in the older books Zhents were presented mostly as folks who are just doing their jobs like any soldiers. Post-ToT they're presented as just trying to rebuild their home and recover from the fact they were taken over by chaotic evil douchebags who did more damage to their own hierarchy than their enemies.
Of course they were still brutally efficient soldiers and very pragmatic with the idea of securing resources, but pragmatism isn't pure evil.

Older depictions of Thay mark them as surprisingly accepting of other races as well, hell how many people remember the fact that their police force is (or I guess was) almost entirely gnolls because gnolls have better vision/scent/etc than humans do? As I recall there was an orc breeding program for better soldiers sure, but orcs generally were trusted with any physical job, as opposed to say Baldur's Gate where orc blood could get you a death sentence.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

4e was fucking underrated.

cum2soon
cum2soon

actually getting to play a high elf in WHFRP

askme
askme

Chaotic Good Mary Sue, google any of the Silverhand sisters.

idontknow
idontknow

People didn't see it as such. They just knew that there was an explosion of magic in an area that now is horribly cursed from said explosion, and priests told them Helm did it.

likme
likme

Why?
She literally defied divine rules, fuck her.

Because the other gods didn't exactly like being ordered around by Ao, nor did they care for being turned into mortals. As it turns out, they don't like seeing one of their equals killed, nor do the common laymen like seeing one of their deities slaughtered.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

Hey, hey! I didn’t say it has to be WHFRB you goofy goober, I just presented a setting where you could play a manly elf.

And I want to play a manly elf! I want to, I really do!

Emberburn
Emberburn

I'm the one who described the event for the thread.
And I did use a plothook based on it for one of my games even, was a pretty fun campaign even if it got cut short because one of my players at the time made it his personal goal to troll every other player.

That said, as mentions, the reason people take issue with it is that while it should be an interesting plot hook and represent shades of grey, the way it's presented in Grand History and in Harpers references in general, is that the Harpers are doing what's necessary to maintain order and goodness in the Realms, for their goal is righteous and just.
There are some exceptions to presenting the Harpers as entirely good guys, but often times those references are only in dealing with their own people, while maintaining positive interactions with others despite how terrible their deeds are.

WebTool
WebTool

I think that has to do more with which edition of lore it is (like much of the discussion in this thread). Early on it's closer to how the other guy mentioned, but later interpretations made the wall worse and worse until it was just batshit insane, as you pointed out.

DeathDog
DeathDog

FR is an objectively shit setting that's almost as bad as fucking Dragonlance.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

Silly helm! you can't smite me. I'm a GURLL
Helm

JunkTop
JunkTop

Wrong. Don't be a cuck hippie Moon Elf who welcomes the end of elfkind and wants people to immigrate to Evereska and would sacrifice their entire culture for the sake of being liked. Be a Sun Elf. Be proud of your people. Do good things because you were BORN a hero, not for the sake of adulation and acceptance. Stand like a demigod amongst mortals.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

Ed Greenwood was trying to tell us something important, that Manshoon did nothing wrong.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

Play a high elf who is dedicated to bringing back the traditions and magics of myth drannor or some shit.
Have him be a bit of an extremist, and his ultimate goal to fully assemble one of the totally-not-powered-armors that the high elves back then used to rape face.

Supergrass
Supergrass

Like, she got a lot of showing but the 4e books never really forgot the fact that she was a backstabbing hypocrite of a goddess.

This is actually part of the Raven Consort (The Raven Queen took you as a lover) epic destiny:

Does the thirst for power still burn within you, overriding your ardor in the end? You know as well as the Raven Queen, who herself slew an elder god of the dead, that death can die. Could the very throne of your goddess one day be yours?

And the Raven Knight (Becoming her holy champion) Epic Destiny.

By the time you complete your final quest, your old life is a dream compared to the power, prestige, and glory ahead. With your affairs in order, you embark to bring honor and glory to the deity, to join her other trusted servants as her chosen champion. You bear a new burden to protect the deity who entrusted you with such power. How you meet your mistress’s enemies and whether you but do with the same loyalty and devotion you did earlier is up to you and your ambition. You might continue as you have or turn your considerable power to reach further than you ever thought possible.

Which really ties into a core part of the 4e setting: Once given power by a being (Demon or God or Spirit or Whatever), it is your power and they can't take it back. Which is why Avengers exist, to hunt down other divine casters who betray the trust of their god and spread heresy in their name or just use it for personal gain.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Dammit I didn't want to play NWN2 again so soon, Veeky Forums. Why you gotta make me play it again?

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

You'd think a level 25+ character could just...find a more nuanced solution than disguising as a prostitute and then murdering everyone

I think the writers of FR just don't understand how incredibly powerful their characters are. I remember the 3rd edition FR book mentioning that the favored strategy of one of the 20+ level lich wizards is... pretending to be a dead body in the mud.

King_Martha
King_Martha

So you just did a complete one-eighty on your earlier argument for the sake of sounding smug and superior when you don't know anything? Okay, cool, here's your (You), thanks for playing. I'm honestly impressed you managed to talk so much and say so little, good shitpost.

viagrandad
viagrandad

I find curious how there's no mention of the Harpers of Elminster in NW2.

cum2soon
cum2soon

Sun elf
Go back to evermeet, knife-ear. There's spooky scary HUMANS out in the wider world who want to rape your women and build over your abandoned, monster-infested ruins

w8t4u
w8t4u

While we're on the topic, how do you guys handle death and the afterlife in your setting? I have it so that when people die they're transported to the plane of the god whose ideology they most closely align with, or else get sent to Death's domain.
When they don't have any business left in the afterlife, they vanish and are reborn on the material plane. Time is kinda weird between planes, so you can have someone who spends an eternity on the vibrant planes and perfect cities of the solar god be reborn on the material plane an instant after they died.

Techpill
Techpill

That's just him being bored. After you've been an undead archmage for so long, eventually you've done it "properly" so often that you just want to see the looks on the heroes' faces when you pop out of the mud and go "BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA!".

Emberburn
Emberburn

Well damn, guess I’ve found the sub-race I need to read up on for my next character concept.

It says they have bronze skin, does this mean they’re just tanned (“bronzed”) or they’re of a swarthy, Mediterranean persuasion?

Firespawn
Firespawn

This and this

The solution to halfhearted elves being faggots isn't to be less of an elf, it's to ELF HARDER. Straight up Legolas riding on a pegasus shooting exploding magic sun arrows out of his bow while Time Stands Still at the Iron Hill plays in the background. Elf so hard you rock everyone's faces off. Poke fate in the eye with your elvish dick.

SniperWish
SniperWish

But there is. Tons of magic items reference them, and Harper Agent is one of the vanilla prestige classes. I can't remember if one of them actually shows up, though.

RavySnake
RavySnake

No.

Forgotten Realms

THAT is the first mistake.

in b4 "HURR DURR NO D&D WAS YOUR FIRST MISTAKE DURRHURRR I POOPED MYSELF!"

DeathDog
DeathDog

Well, I guess that explanation also works for the """"pretend"""" to be a slut sorcerers.

Mystery solved!

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

Woah wait hold up, what are these power armors you speak of. My original character concept was a father trying to uphold a contract with the ancient Fae that’s holding his twin sons’ souls as payment for an earlier arrangement but that sounds rad too.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

its not shit because you can fix it!

easily amused faggot

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

Reminder that prior to judgement, all souls have to stand in indefinitely long lines, to the point that the hells seems preferential to some.

whereismyname
whereismyname

Bronzed...compared to Moon Elves, who are pasty to the point of blueness. This is a Sun Elf female.

The solution, as always, is Fireball. Or plague spells engineered to only affect humans, orcs, giants, and goblinoids. Can't really rape human women when they go all melty for elvish prettyboys in the first place, amirite?

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

It reeks of Mearls (or whoever) waifuing her hard and demanding she be shoved in and everyone else just...going "okay, sure" and portraying her correctly.

MPmaster
MPmaster

Not in the base game; In SoZ Volo is an NPC; not sure about MoB because I never finished it.

Soft_member
Soft_member

Eh. You could make the argument that they wanted to do it Snake style, go in without any of their advantages and do it the old-fashioned way so that nobody can trace them back like they could by throwing high-level magic around. Sneak in as a whore and just stab them in their sleep, best you'll get out of their corpses is "The...thot...did...it...", if anything at all.

massdebater
massdebater

implying that isn't one of the afterlives
One of the goddesses in my setting is the goddess of lawyers and merchants. She's the mother of the leading archdevil in the setting. So whenever he's dealing with a particularly anal subordinate, he sends them to get something from his mother. They never come back.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

Pegasus

Screw that, I’m going full Caledor and giving him reason to seek the allegiance of a dragon, for only an Elf can consider themselves an equal to such proud and ancient creatures.

Couple that with a fatherly obligation to the “Children Races” and the Noble Background giving this character easy “ins” to the courts, and I think I’ve got a real shot at being a proper Noldor Elf.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

They are considered a good organization,
So is the CIA and the UN

Which is why I said I want a specific citation where this was said to be a "good deed with not moral grey area" because so far it sounds so morally grey that you dont even need it spelled out unless you are a retard.

Chaotic Good Mary Sue, google any of the Silverhand sisters.
So you are saying that good people never do any morally grey deeds?

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

Is your name Cathy Newman?

Flameblow
Flameblow

If you dont know why the Wall of the Faithless exists you are a newfag and need to kill yourself.

Pro-Tip: Its purpose has nothing to do with MUH ATHEISM

WebTool
WebTool

No, you're absolutely right, if she was real enough to hear us in any way I would strongly recommend not calling her a slut that anyone with a positive Strength, Con, and Charisma modifier can have for a smile.

This is referenced in BG2, actually. You have the option to ask the priests and knights of Helm about it, and they just straight up say "he was doing his job". I'm also kind of blanking on any corroborating sources in the fluff of mortals or gods holding Helm in contempt, so it might just be bias on the part of your source, but it's true that magic got wonky for a while and he could be blamed for it, not that he gave a fuck. Part of the reason Helm is such a Chad is that he just doesn't care about that kind of shit.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

its not an idea for a plot its actually shit

t. autist who never even played a tabletop

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

This is every single one of those situations where a woman swings on a man and just gets KO'd, only on a divine scale.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

Anyone have photoshop?

King_Martha
King_Martha

Wasn't that a niche situation with nu-Mystra's archcleric where his soul WAS saved and it was all Cyric's dickery at work? Although naturally MYSTRA gets an exception from the usual rules.

Spamalot
Spamalot

I think he was downgraded in 4e to a lower status deity as a result, the idea being he took a worship hit.
I don't actually play or read 4e material, but thats what was explained to me when i made my Cleric of Helm in 5e. Brought the Church of Helm roaring back to Baldur's Gate too.

w8t4u
w8t4u

That was one of the best parts about 4e, magical power of any kind was basically a seed, a tiny shard of glory that a powerful being could plant in you in the hopes that it would blossom into a mighty tree...but once they've given it out, there are NO backsies. Not for Paladins, not for Clerics, not for Warlocks, not for anyone, hence the existence, as you said, of Avengers. It was genius.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

And now Thay is a generic evil kingdom run by undead. What a fucking waste.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

I unironiclly like the raven queen. It's a god of death that isn't pointlessly evil but still manages to have an agenda. It also makes things more polytheistic, with coming back from the dead being a god's job instead of something every god can do.

Also, I'm just glad that there is one fucking god with a memorable name that matches what they do.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

The worst part is how stupid and pointless it was. Mystra knew she was going to somehow come back, probably, Goddess of Magic isn't exactly a role that can stay vacant. She also had to know that Helm would straight-up cease to be himself if he let her through. Instead she pushed him out of pure blind arrogance or spite, and let him get blamed to make a point. What an utter cunt.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

It's weird because his portfolio is pretty specific but he has outsized power as a result of his divine role of having to police the other gods. Helm doesn't give a fuck as long as he can keep doing his job. Good on you, though, for what you did.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

CIA
considered a good organization

Are you serious?

So you are saying that good people never do any morally grey deeds?

I'm saying that if you murder a bunch of innocent people to protect your own power you're not good aligned, period. In what way is this morally grey? It's straight-up an evil act.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

Hey now, the Harriers were completely illegal and disavowed. They even got disbanded when their clan leader found out about them.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

Holy shit you are dumb.

gee guys urrr why it bad that people who no do bad thing die!?

Because they didn't deserve to be killed. Do you understand or should I use smaller words? I know you don't have an actual argument, it's blatantly, painfully apparent you're hoping to get by purely on tone, but this is Veeky Forums, not r*ddit, and you have to use that squishy grey matter rattling around inside your braincase if you want anything but smug anime girls and laughter in response to your puerile Harper Internet Defense Force posts.

Methnerd
Methnerd

Instead of FR can we make this thread about helm and how awesome he is

Fuck I am so mad about what they did to him in that ass spell plague lore.

RavySnake
RavySnake

if you don't agree kill yourself

Alright, I realize you're a little slow, but I'm going to try to explain why people don't like the Wall to you. It is an established setting trait that Ao could make the gods completely independent of the need for worship, therefore there is no need to eternally torture people for not worshipping, especially if they renounce their deity without meaning to. It's stupid and petty, and not even in the GRANDLY stupid and petty way in which gods can be stupid and petty. Do you understand or are you going to spin on your ass and an ever-growing cone of your own shit while shrieking that nobody understands the brilliance of this stupid plot device while you plug your ears?

RumChicken
RumChicken

All i read there is
I don't like X!
and
X is bad when its used/written poorly

TechHater
TechHater

On the flip side, its not too many beings that get to SMITE a bitch like mystra and stick around, even if people bitch about it.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

So basically, it's like the whole Sword of Truth thing, where the protagonist murders a whole crowd of innocent peasants but it's clear the author considers it a good deed for the greater good?

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

I think you're underselling how hilariously psychotic that scene in Goodkinds book is.

Playboyize
Playboyize

The difference is that in one situation an evil-aligned undead is being whimsical and in the other CG people are choosing to murder a bunch of folks for no reason but lulz. Not to mention that the Harpers explicitly WILL target good-aligned powerful people who aren't allied with them if they start upsetting the status quo.

Harpers are fucking cunts, and the faggot defending them should go sip a nice warm cup of bleach.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

There you go, that's playing a Sun Elf correctly. Be the Noldor.

Emberburn
Emberburn

Remember when Mystryl didn't give a shit about super powerful wizards until Karsus fucked everything up?

YEah, there's a reason why the goddess of magic doesn't trust anyone not in her good books.

Evilember
Evilember

How is it an idea for a plot when an NPC above the level cap already solved it in the crudest, most low-effort way possible? You can't even use it as a fun investigation mission because the assassin is too powerful and connected to ever be brought to justice short of epic-level shenanigans.

Nojokur
Nojokur

As I said, you're a little slow. Take your time.

Supergrass
Supergrass

Except you didn't say anything to me shitpost-kun, as i am another person saying your sputtering nonsense.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

I've only heard about it secondhand, kindly elaborate.

They killed him off, didn't they? That's really lame.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

Hes pretty much the only good deity that is specific to the setting, at least the only good one they care to give attention to

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

I'm totally not the guy who just got BTFO for the fourth or fifth time this thread, I'll use bad grammar and maybe user will be fooled.

I'm really being generous with these pity (You)s tonight. Make your next post a doozy, since I'm done giving you attention.

likme
likme

Actually, they killed him off before the spellplague. He was killed off a few months before even the preview of 4e turned up (And 4e FR wasn't at launch). He was killed late 3.5.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

That is a very fair starting point to act on and it would be entirely reasonable if she made responsible magic use a tenet of her faith. "Don't be like the Netherese" is solid advice. The solution she chose, though, and has acted on as Mystra, Midnight, and now the new Mystra who has the memories of all three, is pants-on-head retarded and probably creates MORE Karsuses.

Evilember
Evilember

If she was actually evil she'd be more likable, but your experience matches what I've seen, where tons of people HATE the Raven Queen and some people love her, both frequently for the same reasons.

StonedTime
StonedTime

Multiclassing wasn't nearly as costly before the d20 System.

TechHater
TechHater

After a lot of Crane fans on the writing team were suppressed, supposedly. In the CCG they were ninjas with straight-up good Honor, which ninjas are normally the antithesis of.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

I honestly like her for being the sort of bitch she is. She's got flaws (And pretty massive ones) and ego issues. It really sets her apart from gods like Pelor who were never mortal and thus are much more tied to their purpose rather that personal dickwaving.

Mind you, 5e seems to be trying to whitewash her a bit by not really mentioning 'She's a massive hypocrite' like 4e was big on.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

HELM SEES ALL

KNOW THAT AND BE JUDGED!

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

The solution she chose, though, and has acted on as Mystra, Midnight, and now the new Mystra who has the memories of all three, is pants-on-head retarded and probably creates MORE Karsuses.

Well, the getting rid of 10th + level spells part was likely a good plan. Considering literally only one of them existed and it was Karsus' Assumption (Or whatever he called 'Steal godhood')

5mileys
5mileys

Apparently he came back, according to the wiki, but I don't know how. I'm not sure it matters how. Helm is axiomatic and necessary in the Realms.

Those were her 3e/3.5 stats.

Honestly, if those are your reasons I have nothing to say against them.

iluvmen
iluvmen

Addendum: Yeah, went and checked the numbers. He died in 1384, the Spellplague was 1385. He died right on the very end of 3.5 (Since the Spellplague was the event that changed editions, like the Time of Troubles was for AD&D to 3e).

Inmate
Inmate

Wasn't the Flying Mountaintop spell 10+?

TreeEater
TreeEater

To be fair, stealing godhood is a perfectly valid thing to do in FR.

Any idea how he came back?

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

Any idea how he came back?

The great power of the Retcon! More seriously, it's not been covered at all. The only source I can find is a reddit post by Ed Greenwood basically going 'Ree, getting all the 4e out of my setting!' and just saying Helm is back. Most of how they reverted 4e changes is very, very shaky and quickly done.

SniperWish
SniperWish

Why doesn't Mystra care about elf wizards?
They're not as powerful as human wizards, but still.

eGremlin
eGremlin

Most of his followers believe
that the Watcher can never be vanquished utterly,
and recent events have borne out that assertion.

Alright, so this is probably how it works...

Be Mystra
Do stupid stunts that get you killed
Save portions of your power so that your Mary Sue pets have to go quest and absorb a whole bunch of superpowers to ressurect you in a cave somewhere
Lose your identity, becoming a mishmash of your previous selves
Tons of drama

Be Helm
Die because the God of Justice was tricked into harming an innocent by the God of Treachery, Murder, and Madness
Go down fighting like a boss in a duel between two high-ranking martial gods
Come back to life because there is still need for you in the Realms and duty never dies.
Still be Helm
Zero drama

idontknow
idontknow

Apparently he came back, according to the wiki, but I don't know how. I'm not sure it matters how. Helm is axiomatic and necessary in the Realms.

5e brought a shit tonne of stuff back, much of it confusing as to why. Like, Mask is back. Mask has been dead for the majority of 3.5 (Killed by Cyric, that fuckface). Bhaal is back but at least that had some precedent. Azuth is back, despite the fact he was EATEN by Asmodeus to allow the demon lord to become a full god (And somehow Asmodeus is still a god?).

Mystra back. The Weave is back. Myth Dranor is destroyed AGAIN (Having been finally reclaimed during that century).

Fuck it, I'm just going to directly quote the wiki because there is way, way too many returning gods.

Known examples were: Mystra, Helm, Mask, Lathander, Bhaal, all the previously lost Drow gods, Leira, Myrkul, Gilgeam, Enlil, and Nanna-Sin; all the Mulhorandi gods, Azuth, and Tyr, among others.

likme
likme

This Helm fellow sounds like a fine deity, care to tell some more about him ?

SniperGod
SniperGod

It probably went more like this:

Be Helm
Go down fighting like a champ
Rest for the first time in your incredibly long vigil
Ao can't seem to remember where he left the Forgotten Realms, goes to see if Helm knows
Casually raises him, gets his answer
"Cool, thanks. You wanna be dead again, or no?"

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Honestly, if those are your reasons I have nothing to say against them.

And if you don't like her for the same reasons, that's entirely fine. When your character is 'A gigantic bitch', it's very easy to be unlikable enough that they want you gone rather than an example of a less good god.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

It’s a good thing that that all stopped happening or being relevant around three years ago. In real time, mind you.
Actually it’s wrong well before even then I believe for two completely separate reasons, but you’re already wrong once so being wrong two more times after isn’t really that relevant.

askme
askme

No, but Wizards did.
The ones on the Coast. Thankfully it’s relatively trivial to add them back in. I’ve been doing that since the edition change to 3e.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

Agreed; the Nentir Vale setting was ten times better than the Realms ever was.

Flameblow
Flameblow

Forgotten Realms a shit.
A SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT

WebTool
WebTool

With both Thay and the Zhents, both kinda neither even remotely cared. Thayans are sorta irrelegious in average (basically they tend to rarely worship anyone because that takes away from their own ego-stroking) but when they are religious they tend to worship Kossuth, while the Zhents have actively had the patronage of Bane since 1e with a brief flirtation with Cyric while Bane was temporarily kaput.

TechHater
TechHater

but Forgotten Realms is notorious for the fact that whenever someone tries to change the status quo the gods sit them down and go "no, this is the way things are forever".
Yeah, TSR and WotC have a tendency to do that.

eGremlin
eGremlin

Please go

FastChef
FastChef

Nah, that's Selune and Shar- Mystra is just a byproduct of their bullshittery
Fuel generations of Religious warfare over literal waifufaggotry alone, using the excuse of good V evil to justify the countless lives lost at the hand of both sides of the conflict when it really is just two faggots arguing over a waifus aesthetic tastes
Not to mention that somehow, no one in the entire realms has caught onto this, or that it ltierally means that according to myth, the universe was started by an immature catfight caused due to neglectful parenting.

Ao is to blame- he works for Yog-Sothoth,

Also, Mystra is directly the reason why everybody in FR knows what a fucking Lich is- because of fucking netheril. There's even a goddanmed 1e passage about Spontanious Liches- Liches she directly had made so they'd continue with working on a specific project till they'd finish then expire, but she never removed this, and this is why post 3.5 Liches are just using Phylacteries alone to transcend, they discovered this old literal string of code and abused it.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

This thread reminds me of why I liked " Warlock of the Magus world" and the arc in the world of God's.

Supergrass
Supergrass

printing press, the renaissance, and the gunpowder revolution?
I know for a fact that the faggot Smith deity literally removed all the gunpowder and replaced it with a magical equivalent as to subsume and maintain deific control in the setting.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

There is the fact that people refer to both wild magic zones and dead magic zones as "Helmlands" because, y'know, they didn't exist until Helm killed Mystara, which implies they're rather pissed off at him about them.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

Those were her 3e/3.5 stats.
Adapted from her 2e stats.

viagrandad
viagrandad

A LOT of the stuff written by Greenwood suggests that a lot of “goodly” organizations and nations think that the Harpers are a pain in the goddamn ass, because basically they judge everyone according to their moral standards and operate exactly like a clandestine intelligence agency except they serve nobody but themselves, sort of like a Good-aligned thieves or assassin’s guild who spies as much as it does steal or kill shit.
The Waterdeep sourcebook written by him book even says that Waterdeep folks consider adventurers patroned or working with them to be something like “fake” adventurers because rather then make it on their own they joined an organization of meddling dicks, albeit well-meaning ones.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

No, that was back in 3e.
It’s been like 105 years at this point of 5e.

Firespawn
Firespawn

Doesn't Volo casually mention that she fucks anyone who's got some muscle and a big dick?
Her dad wasn’t much better.
That book (Volo’s guide to Cormyr) suggests the existence of at least 4 well-known bastards of Azoun IV, and back in 3e there was literally a feat you could take that made you one of his by-blows.

SniperGod
SniperGod

You're wrong but I won't say why

Great post champ.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

3.5 was peak retardation
Would have been sufficient.
Elminster is back apparently, but he’s back to his 1e self where he’s just a cranky old man who never leaves his house and legit threatens anyone who ignores his “fuck off” signs on his lawn with horrible flaming death.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Fucking hell, Helm is just Doomguy, isn't he?

hairygrape
hairygrape

not!Heimdallr, lawful neutral god of cops, obeying the law, and conquistadors. His clergy's vestments are plate armor and he is commonly worshipped by thieves.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

SCAG basically undid all that.
If you go by anything in the wiki, that’s mostly 3 and a half years out of date now.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

and he is commonly worshipped by thieves

... in a sort of "please be merciful and turn your eyes away" way?

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

5e undid that, basically.
And actually before that, Mystra was unable to “hold back” any of her power because the Weave was under her jurisdiction but not precisely her full control, and holding back parts of it caused way too much damage. The other part was how Thayans never really gave a fuck about Mystra anyway.

Supergrass
Supergrass

Who did they worship then?

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

this

Alright, I realize you're a little slow, but I'm going to try to explain why people don't like the Wall to you
To do that you would first need to know what its original purpose was which, as we have confirmed, you do not know. So any point you are trying to make makes you look retarded already.

It is an established setting trait that Ao could make the gods completely independent of the need for worship, therefore there is no need to eternally torture people for not worshipping, especially if they renounce their deity without meaning to.
Not really, he does that so gods actually have to work for their worshippers or the loose powers. Which actually makes them more carefuly and subversive because most of them simply dont want to lose their influence.

It's stupid and petty, and not even in the GRANDLY stupid and petty way in which gods can be stupid and petty
Its stupid and petty if you are a blithering mongoloid that assumes the wall of the faithless is just there for shits and giggles which you do because you are a retard. This is why it makes no sense to you. Its that simple.
You could always try to find out what its purpose is but nah, that would actually require effort so we cant have you do that. Better act retarded for the sake of an internet argument.

Do you understand or are you going to spin on your ass and an ever-growing cone of your own shit while shrieking that nobody understands the brilliance of this stupid plot device while you plug your ears?
Its amazing how someone can type so much and not say anything while complaining that others type too much. You are a legitimate autist. Realize that already.

As I said, you are so many levels of mentally deficient that you cant even tell you were arguing with multiple people the whole time.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

Mostly their own egos, but I guess Kossuth was also popular deity because Kossuth has a lot of stuff about personal ambition in his dogma, which the Red Wizards were kinda all about.

Playboyize
Playboyize

There is more than god in the setting who has Magic in his portfolio you know that, right?
You are not only pretending to be retarded for the sake of an argument, right?

King_Martha
King_Martha

More likely he doesn’t actually know.
Veeky Forums mostly just learns of stuff from memes rather then does it’s own research, and FR is pretty meme-heavy after all these years.

Bidwell
Bidwell

Provide a Citation where it is stated that they were innocent and that it was a murder of innocents
Because from what I remember they did shady shit to acquire the resources for the black-powder and were selling firearms and powder to the highest bidder in Skullport. If I remember wasn't the main reason for why the Harpers found them because they murdered someone who found out about the Warehouse?

I might be wrong because I faintly remember both a campaign and a short story that had this kind of plot and harpers involved but I find it really suspicious how instantly they became innocent to you for the sake of having an argument.

We have already confirmed that you do not know anything but hearsay about FR yet you continue your autistic screeches.
I will keep it short so even a moron like you can figure out the words: Provide source or fuck off.

Evilember
Evilember

No. More like:

"My thieveing practice is just to steal not to kill so if I get caught and just surrendered the Helm church won't mistreat me and will give me a fair trial."

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

I do recall the bastards of Azoun, and later on Greenwood wrote about how rumors within the kingdom circulate quite a bit on if Azoun was blessed by Sharess at birth given the fact he has a boner that never seems to go away, and always has the perfect one-liner for any lady he meets.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

That's why you develop Psionic talent and not have to worry about dumbshit like gods throwing a bitch fit, spell plagues, etc. You give up just a bit of power to objectively stupid and destructive shit like summoning demons or becoming a lich, for peace of mind. Get it? Mind?

No carrying batshit or heavy spellbooks. No wise cracking talking animals giving you lip? Sure, you won't be as versatile, powerful, or even respected but the Will and Way will suit the needs of like 90% of people who set out to be Wizards just fucking fine.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

I have never seen taste this fucking shitty.

hairygrape
hairygrape

First it should be said, part of the reason religion is not as big in Thay is because Thay was born from breaking off of the religious extremism from Mulhorand where literal godkings were around.

That said, since it's hard to deny the existence of gods, Thayans often still paid lip service to at least a couple of deities that they felt were important to their day-to-day, including, but not necessarily limited to:
Azuth, the patron of Wizardry
Bane, for his aspect of leadership
Beshaba, not worshiped as if you have a project you leave a prayer/tip at her shrine to avoid trouble.
Bhaal, also less worshiped and more an acknowledged part of life among those who prefer putting the cutthroat in cutthroat politics.
Gond, patron of inventors, researchers, and tradesmen
Helm, is recognized as the god of soldiers in Thay
Ilmater, mostly acknowledge by the slave castes
Kossuth, all of the elemental gods get acknowledgement in Thay, but Kossuth being the god of ambition and FIRE is seen above the others
Loviatar, mostly worshiped by the nobility, similar to waterdeep, Thayan nobles like having kinky sex games and saying it's totally not degeneracy they're just worshiping Loviatar
Malar, he is seen as a more respectable god of the hunt, mainly because his religion teaches self-reliance
Myrkul, patron of necromancers, who have historically held a major role in Thay
Mystra, she is still the goddess of magic, but her role is very underplayed/diminished in Thay, but still acknowledged
Shar, she is seen as a natural part of Myrkul, after all Myrkul in a way is about the rebirth of what was lost, and Shar is about the loss in the first place, so they are often mixed or associated with one another.
Talona, similar to Beshaba, less worshiped and more PLEASE DO NOT BRING ANOTHER PLAGUE TO THAY
Waukeen, god of money/merchants is of course well respected in a place that has one of the healthiest growing middle-classes in all of Faerun.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

Psions

The commies of the fantasy world, no one wants them, no one likes them, they are inherently broken and all of them believe that if someone properly applies them they will totally work out this time around.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

They work in Eberron and Dark Sun.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

they are inherently broken
Except their literally less borken and more balanced mechanically than fucking Wizards, Clerics, and Druids you drooling wannabe grog retard. Kill yourself.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Stuff like this is why almost all Faerun gods died during a cataclysm in which the Far Realms collided with the Outer and Lower planes in my FR setting.

Booteefool
Booteefool

inherently broken
Let me guess, you think that you can augment powers with as many power points you want to, don't you?

Soft_member
Soft_member

Myrkul, patron of necromancers, who have historically held a major role in Thay
Myrkul has been kill since the Time of Troubles if I remember correctly. He died around the same time Bane and Bhaal did.

Didnt Velsharoon get his necromancer-shtick?

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

I will give the retard that 1e psi was busted to the point that it kinda ruined Psionics reputation for years to comes, not to mention grogs getting asshurt about it because it didn't fit their specific vision for what should be in the game. 5e also seems to want to continue this trend, because the Mystic is pure ass too.

But 2e, 3.5, and 4e Psionics are all pretty much fine. Especially 3.5 era. Legit some of the best design I've seen come out of D&D in my opinion.
Psionics work fine when you actually let it be apart of the setting instead of trying to jam it in the most obscure corner you possibly can.

Methshot
Methshot

I thought that was more Tyr, given his clergy are kind of famous for even turning against their own allies the moment their allies start breaking the rules.

In fact, I recall one book where it's suggested that a group of clerics basically have built up an oligarchy in a city (I think Raven's Bluff?), and have gotten a law passed saying no new temples can be built without them having a vote to approve it.
Sharess worshipers show up, who at this point in Realms lore were considered a southern cult with questionable associations to Shar, but since they couldn't get clearance on a temple they instead got a few noble patrons and turned said noble homes into places for worship/sex-parties.
Sharess started getting very popular among the rich as a result, who gave less donations to the other temples.
Priests got pissed and ordered for this shit to be shut down, and when the city council or governor, or whatever it was who ran the city was looking at the complaint, he also received a counter-complaint from the local high priest of Tyr, who is part of the group of priests who pushed for these controls in the first place, that said something along the lines of "And here is the counter-complaint to explain why these Sharessans, as much as I disapprove of them, are still within the letter of the law and as such should not be punished, and punishing them anyway will lead to me challenging the case in court to have either the law overturned or the punishment reversed."

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Yeah, Myrkul died at the very end of the ToT marking the Dead Three.
I was admittedly using the 1e version of the Thayan deity list, since the 2e version changes it to THEY ONLY WORSHIP EVIL DEITIES (mostly) BECAUSE THEY'RE BAD M'KAY? And 3e further emphasized that.

Velsharoon would probably be the go-to necromancer deity post-ToT though.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

People who suck eberron-dick need to kill themselves by default anyway.

No one cares about your fetish-shit. Psions always stuck out like a sore-thumb and people went them in D&D even less than they want firearms. And for good reason.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

Commie GET

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

None of these are gets, retard. At best, you have some dubs.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

Oh, you are one of those russian twitter troll bots I keep hearing about.

That explains things.

girlDog
girlDog

And yet the appear in every edition.
MUH COMMIES
Except Wizards, Druids, and Clerics have way more in common with commies than Psions. Considering all those classes have much more to gain from a communist like society? And are also much more capable of creating them. Like if you love capitalism you should love Psionics. It's purely your own skill and power. No gods intercession or relying on the charity/theft of other wizards for your power.

Also fuck off to /pol/, only you niggers bring up Communism out of the fucking blue like this when we're not even talking about economics. Kill yourself, or go smoke some nigger dicks. You're clearly haven't had your share today.
I think he was sperging so hard he forgot to write "GET OUT".

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

I quite like psionics. They've got interesting mechanics, and the ideas behind them aren't really all that problematic if you actually read the lore on psionics and they're integrated organically into the setting.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

since the 2e version changes it to THEY ONLY WORSHIP EVIL DEITIES (mostly) BECAUSE THEY'RE BAD M'KAY?
I dont remember this at all. I remember TSR trying to keep the HEROIC FANTASY roots of D&D of "Hero saves the day" but the stuff always had some morally ambivalent stuff in it.
Arent the Knights of the Shield and the while stuff about Tethyr from around that time?

Same for the Zhents or the Iron Throne. Didnt the Zhentarim first start off as religious fanatics before the turned them into MUH BLACK NETWORK: Iron Throne 2.0 ?

hairygrape
hairygrape

I think he was sperging so hard he forgot to write "GET OUT".
It's way more likely that he's just a newfag that doesn't understand what a GET is.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

No, listen, wizard and clerics (and to a lesser extent druids) are capitalist in nature. The means of magic is held by a select few, and they are the sole arbiters of who is and is not allowed to gain power in their systems. Sorcerers are bourgeoisie inheritors like Wyatt Ingraham Koch, born into power with no effort needed on their end.

Psions are comrades. They have seized the means of magic. They own their own spell-production.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

Religion is secondary to magic in Thay, but most Red Wizards at least pay lip service to a favored deity. The usual evil gods and goddesses are worshiped in the Red Wizards realmBeshaba, Loviatar, Malar, Shar, Talona, Umberlee, and the quasi-power Gargauth the Outcast all have devoted followings. Cyric, once supreme among Thayan deities, has declined in power considerably since going mad after reading his own evil book, the Cyrinrishad. He has been supplanted by a number of other gods, most prominently Iyachtu Xvim and Kelemvor (not an evil god, but responsible for the dead, of which there are many in Thay). Small holdout congregations still worship the so-called dead gods (Bane, Bhaal, and Leira), and rumors persist of their continued existence.
Kossuth, the lord of fire elementals, is also a popular deity, especially since his direct aid helped Thay to victory during the Salamander War. In addition, the humans of Thay are not reticent about adopting other races deities, such as Juiblex, Lolth, and Vaprak, into their evil pantheon.

^2e Thay as opposed to 1e Thay which while having evil deities on it, gave reasons for them to actually be worshiped/acknowledged in Thay aside from "lol evil", and sure as shit didn't randomly add evil deities of other races.

I honestly could not tell you much on the Knights of the Shield or the Iron Throne, though yes 2e was also the time period where Zhents got more humanized.

It's a mixed bag as to who got more interesting and who got simplified.

cum2soon
cum2soon

They own their own spell-production.
And theirs alone. Seriously, Psions have a fuck ton of trouble manifesting "buff" style powers on other people

Also in actual communism, we all know there's still going to be an upperclass that's going to keep ALL off the good shit to themselves. Psionics is ancap as fuck, every man, every mind, every soul, is their own island.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

Your point is?

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

I think it depends on the type of psionics, really.

Ardents are pretty commie.

girlDog
girlDog

I've always put elves as renaissance/medieval france as elves being a bunch of hedonistic, sensation focused assholes who are also very fucking good at warfare while Gnomes are revolutionary and Napoleonic france, always galvanized to action and constantly progressing/changing in all fields including policy and government but still really fucking good at tactics and shootouts.

Bidwell
Bidwell

russian twitter troll bots
What would the Russians have to gain from making people not like Psionics in their D&D? I feel like there's an Unknown Armies premise somewhere around here.

TreeEater
TreeEater

She "Mystara" tells the Simbul to stop because all wizards build upon and improve the weave by expanding the mortal worlds understanding o magic and by just experimenting. Later when she comes back from the brink of death at Cyrics hands she tells her chosen not to go looking for evil wizards to kill because she now needs all spellcasters doing their shit to strengthen the weave if she is going to make a comeback.

Its all shit Ed Greenwood wrote in his masturbatory Elminster novels between just before and during the release of 5e

SniperGod
SniperGod

Mystra*

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

Also in actual communism, we all know there's still going to be an upperclass that's going to keep ALL off the good shit to themselves
As opposed to capitalism, where around 2000 people at the very top received seven times the amount it would need to eradicate extreme poverty the world over in 2017 alone.

You ignore that Anarcho-Capitalism is not a real ideology, but instead if just capitalist feudalism disguising itself in revolutionary clothing. Removing the state but not the hierarchy of capitalism merely shifts power further into the hands of the dominant capitalist class. You have not abolished the state, you have merely made the CEO a king, his managers Barons, and his employees his surfs. Business tyrants, both large and small, will be given far more power than they already do.

Under Psionism, everyone owns their own means of spellcasting. Under Magocracy, the means of spsellcasting are controlled by an elite few. One of these is analogous to communism as described by Marx, while the other is analogous to capitalism as it exists in the world today.

Playboyize
Playboyize

Savras, Velsharoon and Azuth (who is or was absorbed by Asmodeus) are all considered to be subservient to Mystra or at the very least allies

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

You still need to train to get those abilities you dumb fuck.

It's a privilege you must earn for your self or your descendants.

Commies should all get gassed.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

Discord. It doesn't matter how inane the argument is, as long as the argument is made it divides us and it makes for easier pickings.

cum2soon
cum2soon

They are just an spellcaster class concept that is never done right because their powers are usually too broad.

Communism is an ideology whose sole purpose is to justify the existence of an overly large state bueraucracy that taxes the people to death. Literaly DEEP STATE the ideology.

TreeEater
TreeEater

They are just an spellcaster class concept that is never done right because their powers are usually too broad.
You sure you're not talking about literally every caster in D&D?

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

Helm is the god of guardsmen.

Literaly the god of cops.
A dutiful cop won't misstreat a criminal if he's cooperative.

SniperGod
SniperGod

Good afternoon Veeky Forums,
I want to play a character, a fighter whose previous job was to guard/board ships (like the Lothern Sea Guard for the ones who play WHFB).
A LN pratical man, I want him to pray a sea goddess, can I choose Umberlee (knowing that she's CE)? I imagine that he's praying her just to stay alive and not because he shares her views.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

The single biggest indicator that someone will be a wizard is that they have access to a spellbook. The people who have access to spellbooks are largely those who have been chosen as apprentices by the wizard elite, normally taken from within the upper crust elites - more over, mostly taken from families of already established mage families.

This means that in most cases, magic is not earned but instead won by a lottery of birthright. And it's impossible to enter into the system without someone within the system allowing you inside, or through deliberate subversion of the system such as stealing a spellbook.

While there are the Horatio Alger-esq stories of farmboys becoming mighty wizard-kings, the reality is that wizardry is a bourgeoisie elite institution that's designed to be kept within the hands of a select few chosen from within that institution.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

And Psions are usually the least broad type of "caster" in the game because in most editions they're forced to pick a discipline to actually specialize in to get the best/iconic powers of a given flavor. Compared to Wizards where schools are pretty much just fluff and don't matter or clerics and druids who can use their entire spell list all at once.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

hurr durr this entire ideology can only be interpreted the way I interpret it
Oh. If that's the level of discourse we're going for, I'm out.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

honestly in BG a TON of factions should be shitting on you and trying to have your head since you're a bhaalspawn and all

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

Yeah, that's fine. You're praying to her in the way someone would pray to a Greek god. This isn't about piety or devotion. They are the god of the sea and you must respect their position in order to avoid their wrath.

If you're a pragmatic sort, your religion is probably a general polytheism. You know the relevant gods, know how to give them the appropriate prayers and offerings in order to show that you respect their position and authority. And you remember, of course, to never invoke their name only to fail, or to take for granted their blessing. Because Gods are fickle and petty.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

Sounds like a good character user. Especially because historically, most people who pray for evil deities don't do so because they're evil themselves, but just because they want to appease them.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

Resources are limited.
Why would a wizard teach you if you have nothing to offer to him?

That's literaly like asking scientists to pay of your university tution because "muh white privilege".

If you your self can't become a wizard because you aren't a noble guess what, you can work towards becoming a noble before your kids have a chance to become wizards apprentices.

Wealth is built up over generations.
The nobles are there because of the competence of their ancestors who entered or made a protected class of their blood relatives.

iluvmen
iluvmen

Oh. If that's the level of discourse we're going for, I'm out.

N-not real c-communism i swear!

likme
likme

The people who have access to spellbooks are largely those who have been chosen as apprentices by the wizard elite, normally taken from within the upper crust elites - more over, mostly taken from families of already established mage families.

That's if you only factor in academic magical institutions, and they're just churning out an endless stream of barely-capable hacks in order to pad their numbers.

Truly influential wizards have historically been trained as apprentices to singular independent wizards, who deemed them fitting candidates based on talent or aptitude, rather than their parentage.

Emberfire
Emberfire

Many thanks anons !

Flameblow
Flameblow

hurr durr it's not state capitalism 'cuz teh gub'mint told me so
it's commienism!
better dead than red!
U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A!

Education has become a fucking joke.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

There are ways to become a wizard even if you aren't born into it. In Faerun, anyone could do it provided they can travel to Silverymoon, serve in the Knights in Silver, then enter the Lady's College.

King_Martha
King_Martha

anyone can do it
if they have the free time and funds to travel

So, rich people who don't have to work can do it. How egalitarian.

Spamalot
Spamalot

All this wizardry talk reminded me. Did anyone else find it a bit humorous how some realms books mentioned that it seems with each generation wizardry tends to alternate in being dominated by men or being dominated by women, seemingly based on the fact that when it comes to choosing apprentices most wizards don't choose solely on merits of intelligence?

It probably helps that when FR finally introduced how magic crafting/research is done, there was this whole thing about removing all other distractions, including clothes.

takes2long
takes2long

Not necessarily humorous. It just made it very, very clear that FR stems from freaky Eddie Greenwood, the ol' perv.

hairygrape
hairygrape

Resources are limited.
Knowledge as a resource is nearly unlimited. When you teach someone else, you do not lose the knowledge. It replicates itself as many times as it is taught.

Why would a wizard teach you if you have nothing to offer to him?
I do not believe that wizard should not be compensated for his labor. No one is saying the wizard should not be compensated for his labor.

That's literaly like asking scientists to pay of your university tution because "muh white privilege".
Your analogy is so malformed that it's not even wrong. It's just gibberish.

If you your self can't become a wizard because you aren't a noble guess what, you can work towards becoming a noble before your kids have a chance to become wizards apprentices.
You can work towards becoming a noble
You fundamentally do not understand how nobility works if you think that you can earn your way into nobility. You do not earn your place as nobility, but are born into it. While there are late systems that allow for nobles to impart nobility onto others (another endless resources since nobility is purely a social construct), the core of the idea of nobility is that your value is determined by your bloodline.

Wealth is built up over generations.
Which fundamentally undercuts the idea that these systems are at all meritocratic. If you are born into wealth, it's easier to build wealth. Winning the birthright lottery matters more than effort.

The nobles are there because of the competence of their ancestors who entered or made a protected class of their blood relatives.
And virtually all of them did so through inflicting violence onto others. If you are defending this system then you will inevitably reach the point that the roots of your system is that because some people were able to impose their will onto a lower class through violence, they and their descendants are allowed to continue reap the rewards of that violence.

TreeEater
TreeEater

Ah yes, because we all know that surfs are flush with capital to travel across the world, and that they are allowed to freely leave their plot of land whenever they choose.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

Knowledge as a resource is nearly unlimited.
Not knowledge, dummy. Time.

Teaching someone something takes time.

SniperWish
SniperWish

The nobles are there because of the competence of their ancestors
Feckless cunts who've never had to work a day in their life, leeching off of the achievements of far better people.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

In order for you to possibly be deemed worthy of admission into our aristocracy you must be willing to abandon your entire life, including completely uprooting yourself from homeland if need be, pledging your loyalty to us under pain of death, and then be willing to die for us.
If you survive, we will then maybe entertain the idea of allowing you to join the hierarchy.

Illusionz
Illusionz

Id still prefer state capitalism to your commie-shit.
Go live in Venezuela or North Korea if you think communism is so great.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Pretty much every sailor, even the good aligned ones, will offer a prayer and a sacrifice to Umberlee. She's not worshiped so much as propiated.

Your other (not mutually exclusive) option is Valkur, the god of Sailors, and an Exarch of Tempus as of 4e.

Selune is also a possibility due to the influence of the moon on the ocean and the stars for navigation. Honestly, unless you're playing a divine caster, your character should almost never worship ONE diety in FR

Supergrass
Supergrass

There's never been "real capitalism" either, but that doesn't put it above criticism.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

The lore, yes. I love 4e Bane. This (big) guy is not a fucking saturday morning villain but th god of organised warfare...it seemed. War is shit, thus evil, but you need him. More Ares than evil djinni looking guy. Reminder that Bane is a translation of Ares. Not so sneaky.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

he genuinely doesn't understand what state capitalism refers to
get a edukation moran

Soft_member
Soft_member

And teaching is the sort of thing that's easy to maximize use by teaching more than one student at a time. While it's true you can run into diminishing returns, the loss in time efficiency is slow building.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

That's a better way of looking at it than buying into this kneejerk mccarthy bullshit that's basically just
capitalism = the USA
communism = the bad guys

Playboyize
Playboyize

Bane has always been my favorite God when portrayed and represented as the god of ruthless, pragmatic, enlightened despotism. Bane is basically Dr. Doom, or Caesar from Fallout:NV, or the tyrannical but talented ruled of your choice. Completely selfish, amoral, ruthless, but the people under his rule prosper.

Skullbone
Skullbone

You guys are right that it's difficult, but it's a way that a peasant's son would be able to do it. This way you don't have to pay ridiculous tuition fees, and this is the alternative for the people who are willing to stake their life into the chance of becoming a wizard.
Alternatively, you can skip serving in the Knights in Silver, and just pay the 500gp tuition fee for a year of tutelage, after which you're a 1st level wizard. This fee also gets you a spellbook and all necessary materials, books and etc for your study. But a peasant wouldn't have that kind of coin.
It's considerably easier to scrape some coin to join a caravan to Silverymoon or just ranger your way through to it, than getting a small fortune to pay to the mage colleges.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

Bane only got bad when out of nowhere they had him turn on his two best friends during the Time of Troubles to explain why the assassins are all gone.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

a peasant's son would be able to do it
If he's a serf, leaving his lord-assigned land and duties would work out poorly for him.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

In 4e Bane is evil because he wants conquest. He encourages the seizing of large swathes of territory by force, and the use of any means to retain it, and he revels in it.

But even then, that puts him in the company of unaligned deities like Erathis, and even an ally of convenience of deities like Pelor. It's not unthinkable that someone who is good may even offer up prayers to Bane from time to time when they need his blessing.

Illusionz
Illusionz

youtu.be/Kl1rroJOZzw

Kinslaying and oathswearing intensify.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Well, no, Bane betraying Myrkul and Bhaal makes sense to a degree, to his mind they probably fucked up massively causing the whole mess. Never mind that he was complicit as well. Bane does not suffer equals.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

We all know that the kind of peasant that wishes to become an adventurer doesn't care for that, user. It'd end the same way it would have ended if he left with his grandfather's sword and 3 other misfits.

takes2long
takes2long

Butthink of the baker's red-headed daughter. What will become of her?

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

There's actually a pretty cool article for 4e Bane-ites. I remember the Avatar of Bane having some very amusing abilities related to crushing enemies under his heels.

Methshot
Methshot

...is this a fetish thing?

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

... it could be?

a splinter-sect of Bane who actually want to be trampled on

I... I think that works?

Inmate
Inmate

It's not that it's difficult. It's that you must be willing to allow yourself to be exploited in the ultimate ways in order to be given the chance. A peasant's son would not only need to abandon his family and his home, enlist in a military that might be foreign (and might require him to turn a sword against the very people who raised him) which would undoubtedly carry with it a pledge of loyalty on pain of death, not to mention that is this son is healthy enough to enlist it means that the aging parents of his son will lose that labor on that subsistence farm - possibly dooming the parents to starvation if the rest of the family can't pick up the slack. And his enlistment is still predicated on the idea that he even arrives to somewhere where he can enlist safely. There is a good chance that he very well may die on the way.

Alternatively, you can skip serving in the Knights in Silver, and just pay the 500gp tuition fee for a year of tutelage, after which you're a 1st level wizard.
The average wage of a peasant, if converted into pure g is about 3.65g/year. Assuming that the peasant pooled ALL their resources into a college fund, 100% of it, it would take them 137 years to accrue tuition fees. It would take generations of impossibly diligent saving to afford this, wall of which could be undone by disasters. The 500g tuition fee isn't there for the benefit of the common man to allow them to enroll. It's there to benefit the elite, who can pay a fee rather than possibly pay the ultimate price of their life in order to become a wizard.

Does this system look just to you? That someone must be willing to abandon literally everything to progress in society? That they must be willing to abandon the only world they've ever known, that they must be willing to die for on the way there, to die for someone else, to kill for someone else, and might by either departure or by command be willing to bring about the deaths of the very people that raised them?

Methnerd
Methnerd

That would be Loviatar, the literal Dominatrix Goddess

She happens to be one of Banes servants/juniors, incidentally.

Firespawn
Firespawn

I think the term in this case might be vassal?

Flameblow
Flameblow

It's there to benefit the elite,
IT'S THERE BECAUSE WIZARDRY IS FUCKING EXPENSIVE, SPELLBOOKS AND PARAPHENALIA ALL COST MONEY, AS DO COMPONENTS FOR SPELLCASTING, PROTECTIVE WARDS TO ENSURE YOU DON'T FRY YOURSELF OR SUMMON A DEMON, ETC.

SHIT COSTS MONEY, COMMIE

TechHater
TechHater

Read more carefully please, my fellow!
But a peasant wouldn't have that kind of coin.
I'm perfectly aware of that. It totally isn't fair nor just. I'm just saying it's doable, it requires you to borderline sell your soul, but you can do it.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

... damn, you've got a point. If he pledged to return to her, I'm sure it wouldn't end well. Perhaps take her along?
A man would have to choose to love her or to love magic. The gods are real sadists to impose this upon him.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

And yet it can be offered for free by the Knight in Silver in exchange for their lives, meaning that it's entire possible to subsidize.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Yes, to the direct benefit of the government of the Silver Marches. They're training their own battle wizards

DeathDog
DeathDog

Except that you'd probably do better by ACTUALLY selling your soul and become a warlock instead.

When the system you've designed is more exploitative than signing a pact with a devil, an archfey, or an eldritch horror, it's maybe time to rethink your system.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

FR is set at a point in time right around the invention of gunpowder, with many disasters and willful actors working to keep it locked in a perpetual high medieval/renaissance period of advancement.

Governments are still highly feudal in nature. So, yes, of course we would see it as exploitative, modern liberal republics these are not.

Snarelure
Snarelure

So then why not make this a universal condition? Why allow the elite to purchase their way in at all if the purpose is to train battle wizards?

RavySnake
RavySnake

Also he is a god or civilisation, I love this.

Bane's Orc away spray, apply daily until removal. Might leave residue of spikey fortresses and militarism

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

Why not give nukes to everyone

whereismyname
whereismyname

Truly every nation should work like Cormyr, and force wizards to take a geas that binds them to never work against the crown, or face death for those who oppose such a commitment.

Illusionz
Illusionz

Do you believe that the populace should not be armed? That only a select few should be allowed arms, and that everyone else should be effectively at their mercy?

Supergrass
Supergrass

spikey fortresses

I mean, where else are you going to skewer the orc heads on?

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

Considering what rogue mages can get up to, yes. There's a difference between someone having a GUN which lets them kill a couple dudes or having a SPELLBOOK which lets them unleash demons on the world or worse

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

Depends on the national factors and cultural conditions.
In a nation where the ideas of personal responsibility and loyalty to the governing body are seen and taught as ideal, everyone should receive training and be allowed ownership of wands.

Failing that though, you have far too many ass clowns who would blow someone else up then say it's that guy's fault for looking shifty.

Flameblow
Flameblow

I don't see your point. I asked you if the point of the education of wizards in the Lady's College is to train battlemages in order to serve the Silverymoon, why are people allowed to bypass the system used to prove if someone is worth training by way of having them pay up.

Care to explain how Cormyr's oppressive system of forced obedience justifies a system that allows the rich to bypass putting their lives and bodies on the line in order to become wizards?

WebTool
WebTool

Spears mounted on regular, well made non gimmicky Fortress walls.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

There's a middle road here. Allow low level magics/cantrips that make life easier and enable self defense, but restrict high level magics to officials who you can trust to not abuse it (and if they do, you'd be outgunned anyway), and are beholden to restrictions of their own.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

So then you believe that only a select few, chosen by virtue of birthright rather than merit, are the only ones who should be allowed to unleash demons upon the world? That everyone beneath them on the social hierarchy are only left with the recourse of "pray that your betters don't decide to summon demons which you will be defenseless against."

Lunatick
Lunatick

So then you agree that magic should be for the people, and not just the privilege of the elites?

idontknow
idontknow

Care to explain how Cormyr's oppressive system of forced obedience justifies a system that allows the rich to bypass putting their lives and bodies on the line in order to become wizards?

Because cormyr's system doesn't care how you become a wizard.
Since ultimately wizards are dangerous and can be used as a tool to benefit the crown (and most receive at least rudimentary war wizard training after the geas), it creates a situation that if you become a wizard through public service, through befriending a wizard, or through buying your way into training/school, you in the end are treated the same as everyone else, and are also forced into servicing the crown even if you were hoping to buy your way around that.

It should be said that there is a loyalty test prior to the geas, and failing it gives the head war wizard permission to slay you on the spot regardless of your family background.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

I guess?

I have just joined the conversation and I have sorta lost track.

Firespawn
Firespawn

"Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." Exodus 34:14

WebTool
WebTool

That's what Netheril had.

Also Volo's Guide to All Things Magical suggests that in his original version of the manuscript, he did write a full Magic 101 guide since he felt it wrong that wizards pretended magic was some arcane thing, when literally anyone could learn basic cantrips and day-to-day magic with the proper instruction. He also suggests he was tortured for quite a while for daring to reveal as many secrets as his original had, and Elminster destroyed the original copies.

WAIT A MINUTE, YOU'RE VOLO!

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

he thinks people still care about his made-up marxist terms
Go the fuck to Venezuela, you subhuman

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

I unironically used to quote the OT for my cleric of Bane.

youtube.com/watch?v=garuRIyrS4w

happy_sad
happy_sad

Comrade Volo is now canon. Elminster is counter-revolutionary.

Snarelure
Snarelure

genuine commies on Veeky Forums

You and your families deserve to be murdered. Communists are and always will be the worst subhumans, even worse than the Nazis and everyone in East-Yurop understands that better than you burgers ever will.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

Veeky Forums is full of redditors and tumblrniggers nowdays, what did you expect?

King_Martha
King_Martha

If you don't have the blood of gods in your veins, you don't deserve to rule anyway.

t. a Birthright fan

w8t4u
w8t4u

How broken of a human being are you that you look at people saying "we should unite the people together, and build a society that is fair and just to everyone" and decide that these are the people who should be murdered.

iluvmen
iluvmen

it's a russian twitter bot, pay it no heed

Techpill
Techpill

Which is why the majority of Russians are fond of Lenin and see the collapse of the Soviet Union as a horrible thing.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

The majority of russians are retarded.

viagrandad
viagrandad

Because when the people who say those things actually get down to brass tacks and start implementing their system, that just want to be left alone end up dying.

5mileys
5mileys

How retarded and ignorant can you be that you look at all the death that communism has brought and still brings to the world to this very day and actually genuinely be so far up your own ass that you think that "we should unite the people together, and build a society that is fair and just to everyone" will totally work this time around.

Communism unites people under same kind of oppression.
It makes no one better, it just makes everyone fucking miserable.

muh Russia-conspiracy
Fuck off reddit

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

everyone in East-Yurop understands that better than you burgers ever will.
Largest group of Eastern Europeans say that things were better under Soviets.
The majority of russians are retarded.

I don't understand. I should listen to Eastern Europeans about how things were under communism. But when they say "communism was better than what we have now", they should be ignored?

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

the majority of Russians
The majority of Russians also believe that Lysenko was a great biologist and we are talking about the guy who claimed that crops can learn through culture how to properly grow and so lead to famines that killed millions of people in the Soviet union.
The majority of Russians gets also still taught in school that Stalin wasn't such a bad guy and that they actually saved the west from the Nazis you deluded piece of shit

farquit
farquit

Russia
Eastern-Yurop

This is how retarded you burger education is. Next you will be telling us that Russians are also slavs.

Methnerd
Methnerd

Why not just ring up a devil and get a small loan? If a peasant is actually smart enough to make for a decent wizard, any devil would happily assist because the price of tuition is chump change compared to what a spellcaster can repay, whether its through hard cash, favors, or their now significantly more valuable soul.

"But the church pamphlets say deals with hell never end well!"
State sponsored lies to scare people away from an opportunity they can't control! A truly brilliant person wouldn't suffer at all. They would spot any loopholes and trickery from a mile away, and any contractor would know better than to even attempt such a thing when dealing with geniuses.

SniperGod
SniperGod

It makes no one better, it just makes everyone fucking miserable.

The No Child Left Behind of ideologies, lol. All it does is prevent anyone from getting ahead, for the sake of the slowest fucker in class.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

The deaths caused by communism are dwarfed by the deaths caused and still being caused by capitalism. If we can attribute all the actions of a regime by their economic model, then the model of capitalism is one of genocide in the name of wealth

Booteefool
Booteefool

Because anyone who actually moves to try to enforce that is the same sort of scum that would seize everything for themselves. All leaders of men are sociopaths. Civilization, a mistake. What we currently have is simply the best of a bad scenario.

MPmaster
MPmaster

Ringing up a devil is magic.

What you're saying is the equivalent of "why don't the poor use their trust funds to pay for college?"

SniperWish
SniperWish

This is the sort of non-argument that gets us getting absurd ideas like AnCap "praxeology" and AnComm "spontaneous organization."

We have to accept that one some level, societies need structure. So it then becomes a question of how we are going to build that structure and what it will be protecting those within it from.

RavySnake
RavySnake

thoroughly indoctrinated population
collapse of UDSSR not even 30 years ago
How what strange coincidence that the country which exploited and oppressed all those Satellite States around them still praises how great they were at the height of their power.

How weird that none of the those satellite countries seem to agree to that.
How weird that in every single of those countries the communist state collapsed even if they could have just chosen to continue it.
What a really weird coincidence dont you think?
How astounding that in every single of those countries that repelled communism those uprisings were lead by students and workers, you know, the very same people you claim to speak for.

Really makes you think, doesnt it?

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

We have to accept that one some level, societies need structure
Oh I agree. I'm just saying that the concept of society was a fucking horrible idea, but it's far too late to go back because we fucked up.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

The deaths caused by communism are dwarfed by the deaths caused and still being caused by capitalism.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

idontknow
idontknow

Harvester devils scour the earth daily for likely victims. Mortals actively seeking to sell their souls can find harvester devils in haunted places, at known diabolical temples and fortresses, or waiting near a crossroads at midnight.
Sounds easy enough to find one without magic. Someone that can't even find a crossroads probably couldn't handle magic school anyway.

Emberburn
Emberburn

Really makes you think, doesnt it?
Sure.
Just like the number of post-colonial states turned their backs on capitalism only to have one of the two global superpowers decided to force it on them.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Percentages, bro.

If you have a Commie country with one million people and a hundred thousand die from starvation because of manmade famines, Communism is responsible for killing ten percent of their population. If you have the rest of the world sitting at a cool one billion and a hundred thousand die from starvation because they all simultaneously decided to outlaw food donation programs or whatever, it's less than one percent.

A hundred thousand died in both cases. It sucks, but one of these is a bigger fuckup.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

Then we were born fucked, dude. Organized into groups is the natural human state.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

force it on them
Love how you dodged the argument and went straight to a different one.
Amazing denial there.

Techpill
Techpill

Except that you're basically saying "when communism does it, it falls on this one country. When capitalism does it, the entire world shares the blame."

However, let's place the blame of capitalism where it belongs. At the feet of those who benefit from it. There are 2,000 billionaires in the world. These are the people that capitalism ultimately exists to serve. And since capitalism is the global system now, foot shortages fall on their feet.

9 million people are dying from starvation a year so that 2,000 people can have more money than they can ever possibly use. 4,500 deaths per billionaire that could be prevented if we used their wealth to work towards global food security instead. And that's only from starvation alone. Then if you factor in things that are much harder to pin down, like deaths from wars over conflict resources or the problems they create and that number gets much higher. But let's just say that it's 500 per billionaire? Fair?

Is it justified to kill 5,000 people a year just to make sure that Jeff Bezos keeps being a billionaire?

WebTool
WebTool

Some tankie redditors justify CIA coups.
Incredible what an unwillingness to confront capitalism does to the fucking brain.

TechHater
TechHater

You want straight from "we should unite the people together, and build a society that is fair and just to everyone" to "It doesnt matter if communism kills people"

Are all communists as big sociopaths as you are?

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

Again, percentages.

If Communism was a worldwide system with a ten-percent starvation mortality rate, we'd lose seven hundred million just so that not-real-Communism can fail again.

StonedTime
StonedTime

Is it justify to kill people if they dont want to join your glorious shithole-state?

Is it fair to kill people or steal from them if they want to to share their wealth?

How many failed communist states does it need to declare communism a failure? 100? 200? Can you actually present a number? Or can communism do no wrong?

Except that you're basically saying "when communism does it, it falls on this one country. When capitalism does it, the entire world shares the blame."
Except what you are saying is that MY PARTICULAR BRAND OF COMMUNISM HAS NOT BEEN TRIED AND WILL TOTALLY WORK THIS TIME AROUND

Bidwell
Bidwell

What makes you claim that people dont starve under communism when we know that nearly 50 Million died in China in only 3 years and 6 -11 million in Ukraine in under 2 years?

RavySnake
RavySnake

What you're seeing from the Commie you're replying to is a thing that guys who argue professionally like to do, where they assume power in a discussion by asking questions over and over. Most people, when queried, instinctively start searching for an answer. In a face-to-face discussion, away from the Internet, this eats away at the time your opponent has to think of something to put you on the defensive.

Strangely, most Commies you run into on the Internet do this, not realizing that you can take as long as you like online.

Lunatick
Lunatick

Are you okay with 5,000 people dying every year for Jeff Bezos' fortune.

Would you personally be willing to murder 5,000 people to ensure that a billionaire keeps his fortune?

Emberfire
Emberfire

It's elven chainmail- shit's one of the more consistent edition based armour designs in D&D

TechHater
TechHater

Is it justify to kill people if they dont want to join your glorious shithole-state?
Because capitalism and mercantilism (proto-capitalism) has NEVER imposed itself via war. Never. Ever. Happened.

Is it fair to kill people or steal from them if they want to to share their wealth?
I'm having trouble parsing this statement. But if you're asking if it's okay to take from wealthy, the answer is yes. Yes it's fair.

How many failed communist states does it need to declare communism a failure?
How many failed capitalist states does it need to declare capitalism a failure?

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

You'll notice I didn't answer that question last time because it's irrelevant and attempting to impose guilt for something that isn't my fault or responsibility. What would you have me do, otherwise?

Murder Bezos and Soros? Take their wealth for myself or, God forbid, "the people?" When do I stop slaughtering Jewish billionaires, who make up about forty percent of billionaires worldwide? Is it okay if they're just millionaires or bankers? Doctors? Lawyers and clerks?

Why aren't you out there, murdering billionaires with your unerring moral compass? Why impose morality on politics when you could sort this whole thing out in a fortnight?

Nojokur
Nojokur

I don't claim that people didn't starve under communism regimes. What I am saying is that saying "communist starvation belongs to regimes but capitalist starvation belong to the world" is a nice little way of offsetting the suffering caused by capitalist exploitation.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

That's because the plague was actually fatigue cased by energy drain spells being repeatedly cast on people, and victims stacking shitloads of negative energy related spiritual afflictions, and a GILF lizard of fucking Yig siphoning the souls of the slaim through a covert fake operation of torm clerics.

And then Faggot Nasher decided to execute his right hand man to satiate the bloodlust of his people, talks shit to you, and didn't even think, that with all his power, he could just have some dude polymorphed/use a fake to kill off fenthick to solve the unrest, which led to Aribeth Tlymarande, or as I like to call her- Holy fuck it's so obvious you're being manipulated by divination Edgybeth Tittymarmalaede becoming a Blackguard and nearly killing the shit out of everyone.

Hilarious that as a worshipper of Torm, that fuck got away with it, if only to have his name mark a shitty low gutter-trash gang of anarchists in New Neverwinter, because the old one sunk into the fuckign earth.

cum2soon
cum2soon

Actually, ships use canons that cast fireballs- there's a whole section in the FR comics with a seafaring battle- so that got fucked fast- Magic subsumes and squashes progress in FR.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

Because capitalism and mercantilism (proto-capitalism) has NEVER imposed itself via war. Never. Ever. Happened.

Thats not what I asked.
Is it justified to kill people if they dont want to join your glorious shithole-state? Yes or no?

I'm having trouble parsing this statement. But if you're asking if it's okay to take from wealthy, the answer is yes.
I did not ask if it is okay to TAKE their wealth, I asked if it is okay to STEAL from them and KILL THEM?
Is it fair to murder someone if he is wealthier than you? Does that make it okay? Yes or no?
If yes, how much wealthier does he have to be?
Is it okay for me to murder you if you have 500 Bucks in your purse and I dont?
If not, how much more money do you have to have in your purse for you to say "Its is okay for you to kill me and take my money"?

How many failed capitalist states does it need to declare capitalism a failure?
Dont dodge the question, answer it. I think it was a very simple question. How many does it take?
Or are you saying that it doesnt matter?

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

Capitalism doesn't claim its part and parcel of democracy.
Communism on the other hand does.

Capitalism also never claimed that it will feed all the hungry or and world-hunger.
Communism did.

a nice little way of offsetting the suffering caused by capitalist exploitation.
So you are saying that capitalism kills people despite it never saying it that it is the solution to all our problems.
Yet you claim that its okay for people to starve under communist regimes despite the claim that "we should unite the people together, and build a society that is fair and just to everyone"

Does starving sound fair and just to you, yes or no?
Are you trying to offset the claim you yourself made by blaming capitalism?

TreeEater
TreeEater

Motherfucking Kanchelsis, the Far Realm, the Elf Eater and all the faggotry that was Myth Dranor want a word with you.

Soft_member
Soft_member

What would you have me do, otherwise?
Look at the system you live in now and realize that something is fundamentally broken. That we live in a world of preventable suffering, where some live in impossible luxury and power while others needlessly starve to death. Passivity and acceptance of that system only helps it perpetuate itself. By burying your head in the sand, or by playing defense for it, you're saying "it's fine that this happens." The very least you could do is acknowledge the system is broken.

When do I stop slaughtering Jewish billionaires, who make up about forty percent of billionaires worldwide?
Before I respond, I see what you're trying to do here. But the who the billionaires are as people doesn't matter to me. So to cut right to the chase: It'd be better if no billionaires had to die in order to make the world a better place. If we could turn the bourgeist of the bourgeoisie into a series of Puyis than that would be fine by me. I want justice, not blood. I wouldn't take delight in cutting off the head of Warren Buffet or Bill Gates or any other billionaire regardless of who they were. But if it truly came down to the only solution to our problem being their murder, so be it.

Why aren't you out there, murdering billionaires with your unerring moral compass?
Because I recognize that personally beheading a billionaire wouldn't do anything to fix the system at large. I instead try to change the world in what positive ways I can, when I can.

In the mean time, I post. Because I enjoy posting.

Methshot
Methshot

Capitalism also never claimed that it will feed all the hungry or and world-hunger.
Capitalism says that it's the most efficient means to distribute resources to people who need them. By virtue of this, it means that under capitalism it's fair that people starve.

TreeEater
TreeEater

That we live in a world of preventable suffering

Oh. Boy, I'm sorry, I really thought you knew better than to mix morality with politics.

eGremlin
eGremlin

Morality is a part of politics. Only a psychopath would think otherwise.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

Is Forgotten Realms the worst setting ever devised?
ftfy

w8t4u
w8t4u

It absolutely isn't. Politics is the art of making sure your people survive, with some amenities thrown in here and there to make it not suck. Generally, you want more amenities over less, but more can screw that populace over just as hard, sometimes.

Morality is navel-gazing and should-haves. You can mix in it in there with your politics, but then you have to give up some amenities that might do your people some good.

Inmate
Inmate

Mr. Documents the dead gave a literal inquisition of clerics a Legacy item to hunt down Fedoras with, to show them the error of their ways.

But yeah, Wall of faithless is important, and the same thing happens to denizens in the lower planes anyhow, except down there- they torture you to achieve the same effect.

Lunatick
Lunatick

This sort of bare bones utilitarianism is itself a form of morality. The idea that your people are worth keeping alive is itself a moral judgement.

cum2soon
cum2soon

Everything is morality

What a shame the thread is already autosaging. I'd have liked to watch you fumble with this argument some more.

Bidwell
Bidwell

Morality is a part of politics. Only a psychopath would think otherwise.

Says the guy who suddenly refuses to answer whether he would kill people for their wealth because the Doublethink kicked in.
My questions still stand

If Communism is so great you should be able to answer them easily and with conviction.

RavySnake
RavySnake

This is wrong. Objectively wrong and not why the wall exists in the first place.

The Wall is powered by the Faithless and continues to exist because of them but that is just to maintain it or why it was made.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

I just missed the reply.

So here are my answers.
Is it justified to kill people if they dont want to join your glorious shithole-state? Yes or no?
It wouldn't be a shithole-state, so the question is void.

As for the other question:
Technically what you asked was so typo-ridden that it wasn't a valid question. But here we go.
If dispossessing the extremely wealthy will make society better, then yes, it's okay to use force to dispossess the insanely wealthy.

The rest of your questions assume that my answer is yes. Since it's not, I do not feel the need to answer them.

And to your final question: You're demanding an arbitrary number and I'm seeing if you're willing to do the same. Since you show no signs of being willing to answer the question, I feel no obligation to answer it.

MPmaster
MPmaster

Myrkul
Survived, is now paper-pushing under another deity, like he always wanted. NWN2 didn't really have him drop dead permanently.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

It wouldn't be a shithole-state, so the question is void.
Mental gymnastics to avoid question 1.
Again: Is it justified to kill people if they dont want to join your glorious shithole-state? Yes or no?

If dispossessing the extremely wealthy will make society better, then yes, it's okay to use force to dispossess the insanely wealthy.
Thats not what I asked.
I asked if it is okay to STEAL from them and KILL THEM?
Simply yes or no. How hard can this be for you? Yes or no?

The rest of your questions assume that my answer is yes. Since it's not, I do not feel the need to answer them.
Why do you have to dodge those simple questions?
Why is it so hard to answer a simple yes or no question for a communist?

Is it fair to murder someone if he is wealthier than you? Does that make it okay? Yes or no?
Is it okay for me to murder you if you have 500 Bucks in your purse and I dont? Yes or no?
How much more money do you have to have in your purse for you to say "Its is okay for you to kill me and take my money"?

And to your final question: You're demanding an arbitrary number and I'm seeing if you're willing to do the same. Since you show no signs of being willing to answer the question, I feel no obligation to answer it.
So due to communism I need to provide an answer before you do?
I think I asked a simple question and you are going out of your way to jump through hoops to avoid answering it.
How many failed communist states does it need to declare communism a failure? Give me a number.

Disable AdBlock to view this page

Disable AdBlock to view this page

Confirm your age

This website may contain content of an adult nature. If you are under the age of 18, if such content offends you or if it is illegal to view such content in your community, please EXIT.

Enter Exit

About Privacy

We use cookies to personalize content and ads, to provide social media features and to analyze our traffic. We also share information about your use of our site with our advertising and analytics partners.

Accept Exit