Not all Dark Lords are Evil Veeky Forums.
Take for Example Stannis Baratheon, The Dark Lord of Westeros, A man renown for his virtues, so much so that other people fear him for it. Justice, to Stannis, is the punishment of evil and the rewarding of good. Its an egalitarian view of justice that is practically alien to Westerosi culture.
Surely there have been other Examples of Good Dark Lords that you can name Veeky Forums
If you're Good you're not gonna have an epithet like "Dark Lord".
Stannis is not Good or a Dark Lord. He's a brutally violent moralist who feeds people to his god as a ploy for loyalty and his rule would be as an iron-fisted dictator who would inspire an insurrection the moment he sat on the Iron Throne. Veeky Forums likes him so much because we're all joyless fat stormweenies who daydream about purging "degenerates".
Actually, Stannis is not the Dark Lord of Westeros.
That would be Euron Greyjoy, who straight-up has become a Sauron expy as of the sample chapter of the recent novel, which explains much of the imbicile nature of the culture he was born into as they are effectively orcs.
Conversely this makes Aegon IV/Young Griff his Aragorn counterpart, as a young and seemingly ideal king raised in near-isolation in the ideals of his kingdom in secret.
GRRM probably would have been hailed as clever if he’d finished these books in the late 90’s and early 00’s like he’d have originally planned, but now he’s just deconstructing something that’s been deconstructed so often that it’s basically paved-over ground he’s trying to retread.
>Aegon IV/Young Griff his Aragorn counterpart,
Okay, Euron I get (especially with that banner he now has), but how is Young Griff Aragorn?
Gurm is deconstructing nothing and has never claimed to. The only people who say this are mouth breathing show fans. And tryhard contrarians who just hate on the entire franchise because of the show's popularity.
Besides, if anyone is the Aragorn analogue it's Jon Snow. This has been clear since Melisandre entered the scene.
Aside from his true name being rather phonetically similar; Aragorn was raised in secret away from his kingdom (Griff raised in Essos), was tutored by great scholars and the learned for his role (Connington and company), fluently knew an ancient mother-tongue who’s usage had long since fallen out of favor in his homeland (High Valyrian), was given a famous sword that everyone thought was lost (Blackfyre was almost certainly given to Young Griff near the end of ADWD), was descended specifically not patrilineally but matrilineally from the old ruling line (we know the male like of Blackfyres died out, but there’s some Blackfyre women who know nothing of), led a group of roaming exiled to retake their home (the Golden Company standing in for the Dunedain), and even had vague prophetic visions (as the Targs in general seem to be gifted with).
No, I actually like the series, I’m just pretty sure I can see where he’s going with it in regards to Young Griff.
Besides which, Euron Greyjoy getting spikey black Valyrian steel armor and waving this as his banner in Winds of Winter is a pretty friggin obvious nod, though admittedly the black armor stuff is all movie rather then LotR novel.
When do you think Griff got Blackfire?
And this theory means you think he’s a part of House Blackfyre himself then?
>Not all Dark Lords are Evil Veeky Forums.
>Take for Example Stannis Baratheon
Followed a witch, p evil 2me
When he rejoins the Golden Company with Connington and retakes leadership, another character gives him a “long, wrapped package” and speaks to him in High Valyrian, making Young Griff smile. Given that we kind of have no idea what happened to the totality of the Blackfyres (we know that Selmy supposedly killed the last heir, but that’s hard to claim given that we know that only from OTHER people saying it to him, which has repeatedly been shown to not be an accurate gauge of truth in the novels), and also have no idea where the sword itself is as presumably the Targs would have reclaimed it if they got it, I’m guessing Malys Blackfyre probably didn’t have the weapon or it was recovered by the Golden Company at some point after the War of Ninepenny Kings.
Plus it must be admitted that one way or another the Golden Company’s history is wrapped up with the Blackfyres.
true dat. Justice without mercy is just tyranny by another name.
Problem being, Aragorn actually spent decades fighting for the kingdom under a pseudonym.
That's why Aegon is the fake Aragorn, Jon is the real deal.
>tfw MUH AMBITION was right
In-universe Varys seems to have admitted that Aegon V is his attempt to deliberately recreate the circumstances that created Egg, who spent his life among the common folk with Dunk, which means you are totally correct in that his plan is sort of fatally flawed.
As Tyrion notes, it’s not that Griff is stupid or uneducated or even unwilling to learn, but that he doesn’t have a lot of “on the ground” experience with the things he was taught and seems to kind of just expect things to go the way he was told they would go even though as was pointed out to him that there’s zero reason to actually think that.
He doesn’t have the benefit of Aragon’s longer lifespan to spend training him.
Can't even say he was right, he didn't live to see his goal realized and then his children fucked it all up.
Well, to be honest, his children never had a chance, since everyone dogpiled on them soon thereafter his death.
>Everyone being treated equally is tyranny guys!
>We should make exceptions because giving some people more freedoms than others is not tyranny!
This is why Stannis burned people.
Part of me hopes Jon actually is Ned's son but he becomes king anyway.
But I know the Raegar babby thing has been pretty clear since the beginning.
Egalitarian tyranny is still tyranny user.
>Egalitarian tyranny is still tyranny user.
You got me there but the post I replied to is still stupid. Justice and mercy don't mix, Justitia is blind for a reason.
I think his point about Justice Without Mercy was on the spirit of things like the Eight Amendment. Mutilating a man for smuggling isn't exactly Just or Merciful, especially when he just saved your life.
It is just, though.
Tywin Lannister was the real hero of the Novels.
"Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner."
To this day Veeky Forums has yet to come up with a rebuttal
Because it destroyed his reputation and the reputation of his "allies", who were already notoriously untrustworthy. This ultimately weakened his house because it made the Lannisters all look like snakes, and it only made many Northmen even angrier.
Tywin was a callous manchild who acted largely out of his own pettiness and he, his children, and the realm all suffered for it. I understand Veeky Forums's hero worship of him even less than their obsession with Stannis.
Because you completely kill any chance for further negotiation or anyone trusting you, even if you win your vassals aren't going to seat with you unless they also get a contingent of crossbowmen to stick on the balconies. The sanctity of hostility wasn't some archaic tradition that only the ignorant followed. It was the only thing keeping war from becoming a bloodless race to the bottom to see who can hit the ground without breaking their legs.
Not an argument
How is "it's ignoble because it spits in the face of every sacred custom and shatters his reputation while simultaneously destabilizing the region even more" not an argument for why the Red Wedding was foolish?
Reminder that Tywin lost, and Ned Stark won. He lost his head, and he still won.
>People were so loyal to Ned there are still people working to put Sansa or even Jon on the Iron Throne
>After Tywin's death the Tyrells immediately pushed Cersei out of the scene.
Tywin inspired fear. Ned inspired loyalty.
Not him but what destabilized the region even more was Tyrion killing Tywin and, to a lesser degree, Varys killing Kevan.
what destabilized the Real is Stannis losing Blackwater
The Red Wedding destabilized the region quite a bit. Or did you forget how Wyman Manderly literally ate a couple of Freys? Or how it allowed the Boltons to rampage across the North, pushing many of Robb's men right into Stannis's arms?
It may have bought a short respite but the North remembers after all.
Besides, the same arrogance that prompted the Red Wedding is what caused his death.
>not an argument
The words of a man with nothing else to say. I call that settled.
...
>there are still people working to put Sansa or even Jon on the Iron Throne
Everyone forgets Rickon.
Not Davos or the Manderlys
Breakdown of societal trust.
It will take many generations to fix the hole Red Wedding caused. The Realms are drifting further and further apart and the last time they were united, it took dragons to pull off.
When Boltons go down, which they no doubt will, how do you plan on holding the North? Hell, how do you plan on keeping Boltons loyal?
Are you seriously planning on launching a cross-climate campaign against the North when Ironborn are running amock, Vale and Dorne will drag their heels, Riverlands is on the brink of a civil war and the Faith Militant has taken over the capital.
Fucking hell, belief in the ruler is the only thing that could save the Lannister rule, but they play the tyrant.
>Lannister rule, but they play the tyrant.
All Kings are Tyrants.
Filthy show watcher here. Please tell me about Book Euron and why he's cool.
So does that make Stannis Boromir?
of course it is just when the law says so. You have to pay the consequences for your illegal deeds
Are you ignoring the part where he uses black magic in a transparently evil way, and in fact burns his own daughter at the stake?
It may be the case that not all Dark Lords are evil, but Stannis totally is. His failure to make morally upright decisions on numerous occasions is all it takes to constitute evil. He does bad things while *believing* he is doing good. That's pretty much evil on a plate.
Not him, but euron is basically a nihilist metalhead pirate king who knows the world is ending and instead of fighting it, is sucking what sweet juice out if it he can before it all ends.
It helps that his ironborn are Cthulhu-worshipping metalheads themselves.
Book euron is cunning, ruthless, totally evil, and brilliant. He had a dragon egg, and threw it overboard into the sea when he was feeling shitty one day. He molested his little brother Aeron, raped his big brother Victarion's wife (Victarion felt honorbound to kill her for it), and hired a faceless man to kill biggest brother King Baelon. He claims to have sailed to Valyria and brought back a magic horn that kills the man who blows it but lets that slave's owner control dragons with it. He sent Victarion to claim Danaerys and drag her back as his wife, dragons under his control. Victarion plans to take Dany for himself but it's really obvious that Euron planned this. Victarion is easily manipulated and Euron is a master political manipulator.
Euron's flagship is called Silence. His crew are all mutes, so there's no way of knowing for sure what he's up to.
My theory is that he knows all about the Others and doesn't give a fuck. He makes Ramsay Snow look like Robin Arryn.
>burns his own daughter at the stake?
Never happened.
Begone to /tv/ with your HBO shit. The RPG setting follows the books.
Boy people must love seeing what he's like in the show.
Law =/= justice.
Tywin's schemes made sense when there was a Targaryen on the Throne and a strong sense of law and order. And, as you say, societal trust.
Once all that broke down, he destroyed what principles were left. Why treat hostages honorably? Because your enemies will do the same for the hostages you care about. Tywin could marry Sansa off because Jaime had already been freed. But what happens when he or some other Lannister is captured in the future?
Let's say that Tywin needs to buy time with a negotiation. Thanks to the Red Wedding, nope. Why bother negotiating when the other side will just assassinate your emissaries, for a deal that they won't uphold anyway? Why surrender if Tywin can't be trusted not to kill you and your family anyway? Might as well fight to the bitter end.
And, most importantly, why FOLLOW someone who can't be trusted? Tywin pays his debts, sure. But Cersei doesn't. Joffrey as well. So why stand on boring guard duty for pennies when you get a few gold dragons and murder him in his sleep?
And what happens when other Lords decide that honor is for suckers and start being just as treacherous? Lannisters saw honorable men as fools, and some are, but many just restrained themselves for moral reasons. Eliminate that moral system, and now a hundred Tywins are all sneaking around maneuvering for advantage. Tywin's stronger than any of them, certainly. But he's not stronger than ALL of them, and he's the obvious target to unify against.
Both lost.
And both operated not realizing that their approach assumed a monarch policing The Rules. Ned was honorable, smart if there's a king to bail you out and rule in your favor. Those rules don't exist if someone isn't in power to enforce them.
Tywin was dishonorable. That's smart too... if there's a king to give him a technical legal ruling in his favor and shield him from the consequences of his treachery. Tywin depended on a system that kept his enemies honest and gave him a steady supply of excuses and legal fig leaves.
In chaos of the war, Tywin did better short run, but neither fared well in the long run.
>Tywin Lannister was the real hero of the Novels.
Lol no, he was a spiteful manchild who just kept mumbling on "muh legacy mothafucka", without actually doing shit to preserve said legacy.
>Champion of the God of Light
>Dark Lord
I don't think so
In fact, you cannot have mercy and justice at the same time.
Tyranny is about lack of legitimate rulership, which depends on the culture.
Stannis is both Just and Merciful. He had to punish a life of thieving and smuggling to a man who just saved his life, his family's life, and his keep, and very possibly the war. He can't just ignore this guy's misdeeds, so he cuts off the tips of his fingers on one hand, and then raises him a knight for his service.
This act netted Stannis one of the most loyal retainers in the literal entire world.
It's not great. We see his magic teleporting fleet that sails in complete silence completely blindside people several times. Euron himself is just another "clever" smart-mouth with a smile and an advanced case of Ramsey's loveable asshole syndrome
To be fair, destabilization was Varys' plan when he shot Kevan.
I am hype for the Greenwolf, the King of the Cannibals.
Fucking secondary.
Stannis is iron. He will break before he ever bends. He would never be so superfluous in his ideas that he would burn his own daughter, even if she were close enough to do so, and not a hundred leagues away at the Wall.
I literally get mad every time he is on screen. The kingsmoot is pretty up there with the most enraging scene, along with Stannis burning Shireen. Take probably one of the best written scenes in the series with Asha bringing the spoils of the stony shore, chests of rocks and pinecones, with the promise to negotiate for farmland so the ironborn can stop being stupid pirates who get beaten down every other decade, only to have Euron come in with chests of riches and valyrian steel daggers, while swooping up the loyalty of all of Victarion's best captains.
Instead we get some asshole talking about how big his cock is.
Friendly reminder that Tywin killed thousands at dinner not a dozen.
Yeah but all but those dozen were peasants or minor nobility and freedmen bannermen so they don’t really matter.
My boy ganon, king of darkness before skyward sword made him Satan
Literally only wanted to fight back against the religious zealots who conquered the bulk of the land and drove his people in the deserts
With the violation of guests right, Tywin set a dangerous precedent and eroded the goodwill and trust the people of the realm had for each other. If the nobles won't follow that ancient law, then the peasantry won't.
Oh certainly, the violation of guest right assured that the Lannisters would not be trusted by even their own vassals because, “Who’s next?” (Which really, people should have seen it coming cause of the Reynes but whatever.) I’m just pointing out that the people who mattered that died at the red wedding were those who could raise more armies on the strength of their names alone, the army constituents that perished at the Red Wedding are more or less irrelevant to that.
Tyrion's downfall is his mistreatment of Tyrion but I never got why Tywin, after trying to get Tyrion killed in battle, hands over the position of "Hand of the King" to him.
Not just a knight, a lord. In one move Stannis made Davos a lord with a decent chunk of land and personally took one of his son's into his service.
Nice projection retard but you're wrong. Also who the fuck thinks Veeky Forums is right wing?
If you read the book you'd know he's atheist and doesn't burn people for the hell of it.
This has to be some bait.
>Stannis is iron. He will break before he ever bends
A very poor choice of words, since iron is in fact an extremely malleable metal far more likely to deform than to crack.
>It was the only thing keeping war from only killing the already powerful people who stood to gain even more power from it.
FTFY
Reminder that Euron Greyjoy = Urrathon Night-Walker, and Euron will summon krakens from the depths of sea to destroy the Redwyne fleet.
He's quite possibly one of Three-Eyed Crow's apprentices.
A landed knight. Enough for a name and for his sons to be educated, but he didn't become an actual lord until the books, when Stannis made him Lord of the Rainwood and his Hand.
>If you're Good you're not gonna have an epithet like "Dark Lord".
/pol/ would disagree
Will never not be mad.
I actually kinda like the line "I wasn't born to be king, I paid the iron price." but the rest of the scene might as well be a comedy with the awkward pauses, interrupting nobodies and the cock jokes.
>Stannis Baratheon, The Dark Lord of Westeros
Are you talking about the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, the best and only choice to lead Westeros through the coming night?
...
>left hand is shorter
Nice
>which explains much of the imbicile nature of the culture he was born into as they are effectively orcs.
Not really, while the current Ironborn are by and large idiot raiders there are exceptions like the Harlaws and Drumms. Plus under the reign of the likes of Harwyn Hardhand and the Grey King they forged fairly powerful and influential empires.
>showfags
D&D was a fucking mistake.
I feel like show Euron has potential, since Asbaek is a great actor, but they haven't used him right. They got the psychotic and smart-mouth parts down but that was it. Unfortunately I doubt they'd have the time to fix their errors in season 8 and with how shit the writers are I doubt they want to.
They won't fix anything. Do you know what their response was to criticism about Gendry running across the north back to the wall, so a message could be sent halfway across the fucking continent, for Dany to fly all the back across said continent in the span of a group of dudes barely having ice i their beards as they hide on an island?
>Well, the show is still popular, so I think we don't need to worry too much about that.
The writers don't give a single fuck, they know theyre on a gravy train that will keep printing money as long as they keep pushing it forward, so they checked out the very moment that GURM wasn't watching over their shoulders anymore.
The ironborn majority really are the ultimate form of racial supremacists. Short-tempered violent morons with no individual accomplishments who fall back on an inflated cultural legacy to compensate. When Baelon went for Rebellion Round 2 there were still hundreds of veterans of his last failed campaign and they still jumped at the chance to start raiding the coast. Voices of reason like Asha we're immediately drowned out by Euron's offer to Make Pyke Great Again/return them to Kanghood.
The difference between this last season's Euron and the boring Euron we saw before is the "fix". Don't expect more.
Eh, there's still a remote amount of hope with Rodrik and Harras Harlaw challenging Euron's decisions. Several other lords like the Drumms, Goodbrothers and even Victarion also noticed the Ironborn's inability to hold the Shield Islands from the full power of the Reach.
>Cao Cao is somehow the villain of RotTK for wanting to reestablish rightful government
>Eastern Wu is literally a bandit state attempting to behead the Emperor because they have a magic rock
>Liu Bei is a fucking abhorrent, hypocritical, family killing, baby-spiking, pedophile-harboring, utterly abject monster
I don't get it
I'm gonna go talk to one of the old ladies at the buffet and see if they can explain it
He wants Tyrion dead but sees no problem if he's useful before that. Also when he sends Tyrion to die in battle he expects to defeat the Starks in one decisive battle, thinking that Robb is stupid enough to seek one. When he sends Tyrion to rule king's landing, Tywin has learned that Robb isn't so naive and that the war will be longer than expected.
>Victarion
Is so single-track and contemptuous of the unfamiliar he thinks blue water is unnatural. Don't count on him to fix the Ironborn. He's frankly a microcosm of every single problem they have as a culture.
This. Based Ganon did nothing wrong.
Well the same quote says something along the lines of "Renly is bronze, beautiful but not useful for much", which is also a very poor choice for a "useless" metal.
Even then he's smart enough to not see through Euron's plotting with the Reach. Goes to show most Ironborn don't know or don't care about the long term.
Nah IIRC the comparison was gold. Pretty to look at but not sturdy enough.
Stannis is iron because while he's hardier than Renly, he lacked Robert's charisma and people skills. Hence the comparison to an unrefined metal.
The North and the Riverlands were already against the Lannisters and de facto supporting Stannis by providing a second front (actually a first front, since Stannis was weaker) that saved Stannis from being raped after or even before Blackwater. The Red Wedding was the step towards stabilization by providing a pro-Lannister alternative. Since an agreement with Starks and Tully was literally impossible after the dead of Ned Stark, this was necessary.
The two important destabilizing Lannnister actions were killing Ned Stark and antagonizing Tyrells, both Cersei's fault.
>both Cersei's fault.
wasn't Cersei eventually against Ned's execution? maybe I'm misremembering but that seemed mostly a decision of Joffrey
She didn't lobby for it but she wasn't against it either. She did eventually regret not stopping Joffrey though.
>Stannis
>Not Pirate King Victarion Horn of Dragonsong Volcano Arm Greyjoy
I definitely think Cersei is the "Dark Queen" of the series.
Cersei is evil as fuck. Like, to a comic, self destructive level. She gives one of her only friends to Qyburn for inhuman torturous experimentation because her husband failed to murder Bronn.
On top of the general evilness, House Lanister is on top for almost all the series.
You can't really be a fearsome "Dark Lord" if your army has been decimated an you just brood in your castle, because you're too weak to do anything else.
>House Lanister is on top for almost all the series
They're fucked the moment Tywin dies, which happens in the third book. They get into progressively worse state in the fourth one, and in the fifth one Kevan dies, and they lose all remaining hope together with him.
How exactly are they "on top" for the most of the series? At least Starks are clearly making a comeback, Lannisters are stuck in downward spiral from which there is no escape.
>She gives one of her only friends to Qyburn for inhuman torturous experimentation because her husband failed to murder Bronn
Wait, what? It's been awhile but I don't remember that. I remember her friend said she'd give herself to Qyburn if she ever disappointed Cersei, but I don't remember Cersei ever taking her up on that offer.
>Lannisters are stuck in downward spiral from which there is no escape
Tyrion will save his house.