Lvl 20 wizard casts fireball and hits dozens of enemies for 20d6

What's bait about that? It's simple fact.

You want to do high magic casters? Then have high fantasy martials capable of over the top mythological bullshit.

You want realistic martials? Then have low fantasy casters with a lot of restrictions to keep them on the same level.

Making them line up is the only thing that makes sense, and mismatches always suck.

>Because it's Wizards of the Coast, not Martials of the Coast.

For cereal, it's because magic offers a huge amount of utility that non-magical classes simply do not have.

>wizards are only really overpowered if the person playing it is a munchkin, they arent gonna outshine the rest of the party unless you are out to ruin their day

Nope. First time I ever played D&D, the first time Wizard player ended up accidentally overshadowing both non-casters in the party and fucking with the GM's plans repeatedly just through using spells the game gave them. They ended up not having fun either, feeling like they needed to go out of their way to be careful to not disrupt things. The problem is that it's easy for those classes to ruin a game without even trying.

Oh, so this is the part where you mouth off, repeating things said a hundred times in the hundred previous, near-identical threads, and expect someone to actually fall for your tired arguments and bait.

And, the worst part is, someone who might actually be dumb enough will probably come along.

Obligatory stop playing a shit game and it's derivatives.

>obligatory forced meme to show how much of a contrarian retard upset about D&D being discussed on a D&D dominant board I am.

Holy fuck neck yourself already.

So you know I'm right, you're just trying to dismiss it out of hand as you have no other arguments? Cool cool.

What spells did they use and how? What level were they? I assume level 1, as there's no sense in giving first time players more complicated characters than you absolutely have to.

That meme's probably been around longer than you have.

>I'm not even trying to hide that I'm just a dumb argumentative cunt

Good. Now the bar for how stupid someone has to be to actually fall for your bait and argue with you is lower.

>Look at how upset I am about people talking about a game I don't even play!
>I've been spamming this gay shit for YEARS, and despite D&D actually becoming more dominant in that time, I'm going to still keep spamming it!

Holy fuck how sad your life must be.

This was decades ago, back in the pre-PF 3.5 days, so details are hazy. We started at level 1 but we levelled up pretty quickly to like 5 or so before things slowed down.

Being fair, it wasn't all the Wizard. It was also the busted CR system which kept giving our GM the wrong information, so he kept getting confused that hard fights just ended with a few AoE's, save or dies or save or sucks. I didn't really understand it either at the time, I just kept trying to figure out why my awesome fighter wielding two swords wasn't seeming to do much. I had yet to learn that TWF was a total trap. But, again, all new players who had never played an RPG before. We went in blind, and hit basically all the classic 3.5 speedbumps on the way.

And you continue to prove you have no arguments, and that your only way to pretend to have a point is to throw out insults. Thanks for making it so clear which one of us is in the right.

>Spamming

Are you deluded enough to actually believe that? Most people who post on Veeky Forums have a copy of that, even the ones who like D&D. It's funny. Why are you getting so buttflustered about it?

/thread

>still thinking this is about your shitty argument
>not about the fact that you're bumping a shitty argument thread

How dense would you need to be? This would have to be your first time on Veeky Forums, in order for you to not recognize that this is the same "Caster Supremacy" troll thread that gets repeated every four days (or sooner).

Hence, the conundrum. Either you are a troll and are aware and are just pretending to be an idiot, or you are genuinely and idiot. Those are really the only two options here, and if you want to pretend there's a third option, the archive is basically a graveyard of these oft-repeated threads to prove otherwise.

>I mean fighter can hit 4 times at level 20
That's only if he doesn't move though.

>I force my meme!
>Everyone agrees with me, despite it being spammed just by a handful of people to show how upset they are about D&D discussion on a D&D dominant board!

You're so delusional, it's not even cute, it's just plain pathetic. But do go on and lie some more like you think you can actually fool people.

That the thread is so common just means it's easier to know the correct answer. Which is what I posted. Caster supremacy exists, it's ruined a lot of games, and my post is the only rational answer and solution for any game designer worth their salt.

Restrict magic to the same level other characters operate on, or your game will suck.

So despite it being your first time ever playing an RPG, you ended up choosing trap options while your wizard ended up choosing the non-trap best abilities in the game, including save-or-dies, just by blindly stumbling into them?

Honestly, that strikes me as a little fishy. From my personal experience, first-time spellcasters tend to crash and burn way more frequently than first-time martials.

>wizard
>throwing fireballs

So, apparently, you're a troll AND an idiot.
But, do go on mouthing off like you think it's not obvious.

The funny thing is? I've never actually posted that meme before. I've just been seeing it posted for long I know you're full of shit and are just trying to force a countermeme to try and destroy 'Have you tried not playing D&D?'

Which, in actuality, is only making posting the meme even funnier, because it prompts you to go into this hilarious bitchfit.

Why are you replying to an obvious troll.

I'd recently seen a cool fantasy movie with a melee character with two swords, I honestly forget which one. So I tried to make the same thing, and it fucked me over immensely.

I don't know why the wizard player picked what they picked, maybe they spent more time looking into the rules than I did, maybe they just thought those themes were cool. I do remember they went out of their way to not take direct damage spells.

You've still not yet posted a single counterargument. Because you don't have one. All you can do is cry 'Troll' and dismiss what I'm saying because you know I'm right.

Because people with different experiences and opinions to you doesn't automatically constitute trolling?

Sorry to burst your bubble, forced meme fag.

No one thinks spamming "Please don't play D&D anymore!" every time D&D is mentioned is funny. It's just something sad contrarians do because they're upset about how popular a game they don't like is.

Trying to argue otherwise really makes you depend on people extending you the benefit of the doubt, and considering how awkardly this forced meme is spammed whenever D&D is merely mentioned, it's all too obvious how sad it and it's few posters are.

...

>people bumping a troll thread with old troll posts aren't trolling

Oh, I bet.

Here's my counter argument- It happens and has been happening for years. Editions have come and gone, but the meme has remained. I honestly don't think anyone on Veeky Forums is that dedicated to anything that they keep spamming it. Instead, I think it is... You know. A meme. An idea that spreads from person to person, perpetuating itself by doing so.

The strange thing is, your intense counter reaction to it is perpetuating it just as much as the people who post it because they think it's funny.

Why is discussing caster supremacy inherently trolling? Just because a lot of idiots deny it exist doesn't stop it being a real game design problem you can learn a lot from discussing and analyzing.

> I honestly don't think anyone on Veeky Forums is that dedicated to anything that they keep spamming it.

You say that, in a routine troll thread.
Never underestimate how sad people on Veeky Forums can be.

>I mean fighter can hit 4 times at level 20
Wow, so you can hit up to four enemies for 1d8+5 AND quadruple your chances of rolling a 1 in the process. Oh, and you better be swinging at mooks, because anything worth fighting is going to shrug off those sword swings like a man being hit by a wiffle bat.
At the same time though, 15-30 damage to anyone within a 20 ft. radius that will always deal damage at no risk vs. 35 damage to 1-4 targets and a chance of rolling a fumble and either losing the weapon or hitting yourself in the face.

Wizard still wins.

I'm more used to players playing their casters as summoners who dote over their pets, evokers focused on a single element who delight in chucking handfuls of dice and healbots who sigh in frustration when the rest of the party bullies them into spending over half of their spells on Cure XYZ Wounds.

In my case, players only seemed to realize the potency of stuff like Color Spray over stuff like Magic Missile as a 1st level wizard after several sessions, or after reading about the game online.

I think that's entirely a false premise though.

I don't think the repeated threads you see are just the same person doing it over and over, at least most of the time. But it's the nature of memetics. The more an idea is repeated, the more that idea will be repeated. Every time you post something, you increase the likelihood of someone else posting something similar.

Might be an idea not to bunch all the enemy NPC's in a 20 foot cube when they know they're fighting a wizard.

Seriously most of the complaints about wizards being 'op' are down to shit tier DMS who have fuck all idea what they're doing.

If you have to bend the system around countering magic users, then magic is overpowered.

>Why is reposting the same troll arguments trolling

What's sad is that this thread is just going to keep being made, and people are going to keep biting the bait, and no one is ever going to actually learn anything because that's never your intention, you're just here to argue.

Want to "learn a lot?" Go into the archive. Dig up the hundreds of identical threads to this one, and read through them. See your identical arguments being made, and see the rebuttals, and see the rebuttals to the rebuttals, all the way down over the last several years, and you'll see how fucking stupid the whole business is.

You are just here to argue about a topic that has been regurgitated ad naseum, and someone you think that beating this dead horse is going to help anyone learn something.

Break out of this sad cycle.

Hence the "all memes are forced memes" concept, and why someone would continue to spam their butthurt image in hopes that more people who are equally butthurt will want to show how butthurt they are.

While I acknowledge that 3.5 is imbalanced in favor of spellcasters, "don't clump your mooks together" isn't "bending the system around countering magic users."

...Except that's not the best explanation, at all? It fails occam's razor real hard.

If you have enough wherewithal to pick up the PHB and read through the spells you can choose, it's fairly easy to fuck up the game simply because you underestimate how powerful the spell actually is.

Like you'd think that Grease would be a fairly weak spell until you realize that having a spell that immobilizes anyone with a shit Reflex save while opening them up to massive penalties is pretty goddamned powerful for a Level 1 spell.

Hell, most of the best spells in the game tend to be Level 1-4 for the most part, which also means you can turn them into scrolls and wands.

There's something to be said for the comfort of familiarity.

Given there's no other reason not to do so, it kinda is. The fantasy cliche is big blocks of goons charging the heroes, and that's something that magic users undermine and force the GM to change to adapt to. There are many other examples of things a GM has to do to counter magic users, and yet incredibly few they have to do to counter martials.

Well, I guess you could say casters are crunchier than martials...

Occam's razor doesn't apply to anonymous image boards where people are prone to abusing their anonymous status. People aware of what people are aware of changes the mode of their actions.

In fact, Occam's Razor isn't a foolproof tool, and definitely shouldn't be applied under the circumstances where people can intentionally hope that it would be applied, ie., the benefit of the doubt being extended to them.

The majority of first-time players I've played with skipped over thematically silly stuff like Color Spray and Grease in favor of cool shit like Burning Hands and Shocking Grasp. I might be an outlier though.

But all you're really doing in that case is doubling down on your assertions and assumptions, not providing any real basis or support for them.

I don't think you're an outlier, I honestly think that's why so many people never encountered caster supremacy, that you can avoid it if you go for those kind of options, for the most part. My point earlier was just that my first experience was very different from the standard.

What you're doing is hoping that the benefit of the doubt is extended to you, rather than facing the obvious truth behind what evidence we do have.

Just look at this particular faggot.
archive.4plebs.org/_/search/filename/the answer/

There's really no way to describe this person as anything except a spamming, butthurt faggot upset about the mere mention of D&D.

Other people may not spam this image or use it just to show how upset they are, but this fellow certainly does.

I just disagree with your fundamental premise that posting that pic is a sign someone is upset. It's a joke. You realise the picture is from a comedy, right? And that it's mocking how IT people always answer questions with 'Have you tried turning it off and on again'?

Even when talking about direct damage spells, Wizards still get spells like Magic Missile, which never misses and can generally kill/bloody low level encounters and burning hands which can hit in a 15 ft. cone and force people to spend a full-round action in order to extinguish things that were set on fire by the spell.

what kind of plebian runs that brand of crit fail on an attack roll? if you're gonna be a cancer at least have a crit fail confirmation roll

Not really. When you factor in how much optimization is required just to hit things with a stick, martials are arguably just as crunchy as mages are.

Fuck off with your demand that people extend the benefit of the doubt to you and that shitty spammed image. "Reasonable Doubt" is not the same as "Any and All doubt", and here there is no reasonable doubt that this particular faggot is spamming his image at just the mere mention of D&D.

What more evidence do you need that it is being spammed by butthurt faggots, and that it is essentially the banner of the butthurt contrarian? How about another link?

>archive.4plebs.org/_/search/image/KaUGoGAoxoB1hMc93ANZ/g==/page/2/

What we have there is basically a giant testament to pure butthurt about a game being discussed on a board where it's the most popular RPG. It's an image that is spammed by people desperate to get people to not play a game they don't like.

You might not like that that's what it is, but here's what you can do. Next time you think someone should try a game other than D&D, actually recommend a different game, instead of just flying the flag of the butthurt contrarian thinking that it's somehow a funny joke.

Are you even factoring in Power Attack?

>what kind of plebian runs that brand of crit fail on an attack roll?
DM's who think that auto-missing 5% of the time isn't a hefty enough penalty for you to deal with.
>if you're gonna be a cancer at least have a crit fail confirmation roll
Even then, you're rolling twice just to see if you JUST miss your attack roll.

All I see is a perfectly ordinary meme, user. You just seem kinda obsessed to the point of coming up with conspiracy theories. It's not healthy.

Try reading the post I was responding to again. Slowly.

>Doubling down on the "It's not obvious" even when it is

Fine, I leave it to other people to decide whether or not it's obvious, since your whole game is based around hoping it isn't.

I must say that I don't even know why I expected you to act any differently when backed into a corner like this, but since you're the kind of guy who would try to defend such an unamusing and clearly butthurt spammed image with "it's a joke, see how clever it is!", I guess it's really no surprise you're willing to sink as low as you have.

I'm just a bit confused. It's a joke, and an oft repeated one, poking fun at the various issues D&D has, which are only more clear from its position as the biggest game on the block. I'm not sure why you see it as a sign of upset, anger or contrarian rage. It's always just seemed like a funny picture on the internet to me.

stop making your players this powerful
dnd campaign should start around lvl 4 and end around level 12

>lvl 20 fighter
>powerful

>That's only if he doesn't move though
What shit system are you playing?

That sounds boring as fuck. And doesn't actually solve the problem.

That's literally how full attacks work in 3.PF.

Where did he say he was doing 3.pf?

I forgot about power attack, thatll put the damage uo to like 3d6+40?
(Its been years since i played dnd, I cant remember if theres a limit on the amount you can trade for piwer attack)

Also if a wizard can hit a bunch of targets in a square a fighter can great cleave them all

>Want to "learn a lot?"
Best way to learn is to just play the game. I've been playing longer than most people here have been alive. Never ran in to this caster over powered stuff. In fact until I started coming to tg I didn't even know it was a thing to be talked about.

Maybe the old 1e/2e thief had a reason to feel a bit down. But most other classes are highly dependent on the situation as to which is going to shine.

>it's not a image spammed by people butthurt at the mere mention of D&D!

Oh, really?

archive.4plebs.org/_/search/filename/the answer/

You were saying?

A couple seem butthurt. Most seem neutral or actively tongue in cheek.

Could it be that you're just not getting the joke?

>still defending it

How far are you willing to sink?
My advice? Walk away, because it's actually getting pretty weird how invested you are in trying to defend this shitty spammed image. Got skin in the game or something?

user, just stop. I have been reading this shit and I only she this level of autism when it's about feminism or anime. Just leave him to his rage.

Yes, definitely walk away based on this guy's comment, rather than the wall of spammed butthurt available for all to see in the archive.

It costs me nothing to continue to poke you, and I must confess I feel an odd fascination with your twisted obsession with this harmless internet meme.

Do you often not get jokes? Do you find yourself in a group of people laughing and not understand why? Does it make you feel defensive, as if they might be laughing at you?

>At the same time though, 15-30 damage to anyone within a 20 ft. radius that will always deal damage at no risk vs. 35 damage
Most enemies worth carrying about are heavily resistant to fire and have high as fuck saves.

Not to mention 30 damage as a standard action at level 20 is a joke. There's a lot wrong with D&D casters, blasting is not one of them(in that blasting as a role/archetype is way too weak to matter)

Man I don't know what your fighter is doing wrong, because with power attack I'm hitting 1d8+32 with a threat range of 15-20 at level 15

Fireballs only do 8d6 fire damage in 5e and only gain 1d6 extra damage when spending a spell slot of 4th level or higher, making the cap 14d6.

Meanwhile, fireballs in 3.PF deal 1d6 per caster level (which would explain why OP assumed it'd deal 20d6 and why another user ITT corrected him in stating that the cap was 10d6).

Of course, there's also the fact that when people talk about problems with D&D, it's generally in regards to 3.PF.

>Most enemies worth carrying about are heavily resistant to fire and have high as fuck saves.
By that same token, most enemies worth caring about tend to have damage reduction and fuck-high AC to boot thanks to WBL assuming you'd be loaded up with several modifying magic items.

The vast majority of enemies aren't built as PCs, so WBL doesn't apply. Even when you have enemies that are NPCs(as opposed to monsters), they have significantly lower WBL.

first post right post

>The vast majority of enemies aren't built as PCs, so WBL doesn't apply.
I'm saying that the stats that most high level monsters will have were made under the assumption that the PC's numbers are just as inflated thanks to stat boosting magic items.

There's a reason why most people go for the big 6 when asking for magic items.

>By that same token, most enemies worth caring about tend to have damage reduction and
Which is easiy bypassed by 99.9% of magical weapons and if the martial is 2-Handed power attacking like a not dumbass, will do so much damage in a single blow as to not effect it. DR is much easier to counteract or flat out ignore than resistance is. This is how I can fucking tell you don't actually play the game or don't know enough about it to give any meaningful commentary outside of retarded grogs who also don't know shit tell you.

And PC to hit goes so fucking high that if your first 3 attacks aren't basicallly fucking autohits, you're doing something very, very wrong.

If goons know that they're going to potentially face spellcasters in a world fucking littered with them, then they should learn some fucking spacing to counter them rather than cry fucking foul. Play dirty IC against anyone who plays dirty against you - geek the mage, render his magic ineffective, make him a useless burden on his martial team as he once thought he was on them. If you don't want to put in the work to realize that wizards can and should be countered through some forethought/intelligent strategizing, then just don't run wizards/spellcasters, but just realize that you're saying that you can't run effectively manage your encounters to better fit the challenge needed for your players and you're permitting your dudes as a whole to seem rather dim-witted despite whatever stats you might give them.

*they were on him, fuck.

Because DnD is a horrible system with a long history of autistic power hungry nerds in charge of designing the editions. In third edition, for example, one of the guys in charge had a raging hard on for magic. Specifically that shitty fire and forget Vancian style of magic. So 3.0/3.5 was designed specifically to be dominated by magic users right from the get go, with the Wizard being the most powerful base class getting Bonus feats and fantastic spells with casting keyed off a useful stat (Intelligence, which gave skill points) and had great prestige class options that he lost nothing by going into (so it was always better to prestige as a wizard, you gave up nothing and just became more powerful). Even the sorcerer, his spontaneously casting little brother, got fucked by not getting bonus feats and having to cast off the useless Charisma stat (said designer intentionally designed the Sorcerer to be shittier than the Wizard since he hated non-Vancian casting). Meanwhile martials got low skills and very little out of combat utility, meaning anyone who didnt want to be a magic user had to find ways to break the game just to keep up, leading to the explosion of power gamers in 3e...but Wizards could still power game better, which they did.

TL:DR fucking autists creating shit game design.

Fun bonus trivia: the same guy was also responsible for creating trap options for players, as in intentionally including skils, items, and feats into the system which were piss poor or actually useless, simply to punish players who didn't have the time or desire to comb through books and compare them. Martials were the trap equivalent to casters. A+ fucking game design.

>It costs me nothing to continue to poke you,

Aside from giving me more of a chance to show how shit your favorite spammed meme is, of course.
I like this brilliant strategy you just tried, really acting like it's actually a hilarious and extremely clever joke.

Look at this post!
Ha ha, such wit. No intense butthurt from a guy who can't stand even the thought of D&D discussion here, it's just a guy hoping to amuse everyone with his silly image and his declaration that every mention of D&D makes him feel obligated to shitpost.

Hey. Now that I think about it, I think the joke is that you're actually STILL trying to defend this. You're a real comedian, and I expect to see your name in lights soon.

Damage in general is easy as fuck to ignore, that's not why spellcasters are strong, nor is it why martials are weak.

With two spells, a low level mage can become immune to any attack that the martial decides to throw at him and that's not even getting into shit like Blink, Displacement, Mirror Image, etc. that forces any attack aimed at the caster to have a percentage chance of missing outright, even if it would've otherwise hit them.

Unless you can reliably kill everything that comes in your way, you're not contributing shit to the party as far as 3.PF is concerned.

I'm not trying to defend anything. I'm just trying to figure out why you're so obsessively focused on a throwaway meme.