Should a Paladin excel in every virtue?

Should a Paladin excel in every virtue?

Depends on the order.

Yeah, all seven of 'em. Which is why I believe paladin shouldn't be a base class, but a prestige class for fighters. Beef up their spells a bit, and they're the fighter's solution to the "magic trumps everything" problem that shows up in a lot of TTRPGs. Getting a strict code and being expected to be peak performance in terms of virtue should come with power that matches the hardship it takes to stay on the straight and narrow.

What's a paladin?

While it may be virtuous, it could be also prevent a paladin from performing their duties.
For instance, lying can be used for a noble purpose, discretion can be the better part of valour, sacrifice can be pointless and wasteful.
The list goes on.

In theory but Paladins follow the principle of courage and it's virtues of Honor, Valor, Sacrifice and Spirituality first and foremost. At least, Ultima ones do. Paladin is the class of Honor iirc.

No, Paladins are tied to Honor, not the other virtues.

>Justice
>Truth + Love

wat

It's a concern with not only the truth of a situation but of how it can help those who have been harmed.

What is honor?

I presume it means a higher love, or what the Greeks called agapè. Not the profane, beastly love the Greeks called eros. If you hold truth in high regard and love humanity with whole your heart, the end result is justice. Courage simply adds the heart to enforce said justice, regardless of the obstacles along the way or how unpopular it may be.

And Courage and Justice

Depends, what oath is taken?

As a general rule, be excellent to others.

Honor is the Courage to stand up for the Truth.

Nah, Justice is tied with Druids, and Courage is a principle, not a virtue.

>it's more noble when it's agape
Yeah, that sounds like Greek culture.

>Honor is the Courage to stand up for the Truth.
More like to stand up for what is morally right.

Respect for the truth is pretty much the foundation block of any morality.

That makes more sense, after all you can rise above on higher love.
kek

I would not say that something being factual means it's just.
While I wouldn't see a paladin doing it, if a mother is definitely dying and doesn't know her son is dead, I could see telling her that her son made it out and will be fine to comfort her in her final moments to be morally good, even if it is a lie. That would be more CG of an action and probably not done by a Paladin, but nonetheless it is moral and untruthful.

>Lying to someone on their death bed
Come on man

Chaotic Good. No need to suffer more than they should. I wouldn't say that a Paladin worth his salt would do it, but you did say ANY MORALITY, and I could definitely see a good person lying selflessly out of compassion.

Respect for the truth != mindless conformation and telling no lie in any circumstance. A white lie, by definition, requires the teller to know the difference between truth and falsehood, and then make a determination that in this case, falsehood yields some sort of better result than sticking to the facts.

A system of morality, a coherent one, necessitates the practitioner be able to tell what is true and what isn't, and to use that in order to function. The real deception that needs to be guarded against is self-deception.

The guy you're responding to isn't me.

they should try

>A system of morality, a coherent one, necessitates the practitioner be able to tell what is true and what isn't, and to use that in order to function. The real deception that needs to be guarded against is self-deception.
This user gets it. Have a (You).

I don't see how spirituality is a virtue. Seems more of a neutral thing to me.

We're talking about standing up for the truth, not knowing if something is true or not. That's why we're arguing if Honor is standing up for the truth, instead of the dictionary definition of " a keen sense of ethical conduct".
Self deception isn't the only form or deception, and to argue that paladins can lie when the oath says you cannot is moving the goal posts.

>We're talking about standing up for the truth, not knowing if something is true or not.
Yes, but "Standing up for the truth" is not what you are implying here >Self deception isn't the only form or deception, and to argue that paladins can lie when the oath says you cannot is moving the goal posts.
If we're talking Ultima paladins, there is no oath anyway, so you're the one shifting goalposts. Not to mention that we have in universe examples of Paladins telling lies and not suffering any sort of penalty for it.

>implying that the paladin's oath in D&D is the basis of the seven heavenly virtues irl
u wot m8

Lying is not standing up for the truth. The implication is that Paladins are moral, but it is possible to have justifiable morality that isn't subscribed to by paladin. The act committed by the person in the example would be Good, but it wouldn't be Lawful.

My bad, I assumed we were talking about D&D Paladins. I don't know enough about other setting/game mechanics to speak about it, but considering that Paladins are based off of the Christian warriors who fought the Saracens, I would assume that following one of the Ten Commandments is pretty important.

None of you faggots ever watched Sailor Moon

Four cardinal virtues were recognized in classical antiquity and in traditional Christian theology:

>Prudence (φρόνησις, phronēsis; Latin: prudentia; also Wisdom, Sophia, sapientia), the ability to judge between actions with regard to appropriate actions at a given time
>Courage (ἀνδρεία, andreia; Latin: fortitudo): also termed fortitude, forbearance, strength, endurance, and the ability to confront fear, uncertainty, and intimidation
>Temperance (σωφροσύνη, sōphrosynē; Latin: temperantia): also known as restraint, the practice of self-control, abstention, discretion, and moderation tempering the appetition, hence the meaning chastity. Sōphrosynē can also be translated as sound-mindedness.
>Justice (διkαιοσύνη, dikaiosynē; Latin: iustitia): also considered as fairness, the most extensive and most important virtue; the Greek word also having the meaning righteousness

These virtues derive initially from Plato's scheme, discussed in Republic Book IV, 426–435 (and see Protagoras 330b, which also includes piety (hosiotes)). Cicero expanded on them, and Saint Ambrose, Augustine of Hippo, and Thomas Aquinas adapted them while adding a set of theological virtues.

The term "cardinal" comes from the Latin cardo (hinge); the cardinal virtues are so called because they are regarded as the basic virtues required for a virtuous life.

On the subject of truth it is far better to be able see things as they should be than to see them as they are.

I could sort of see where you're going with that, but it's probably better to diagnose a problem than it is to pretend it doesn't exist.

yes

That's what clerics and inquisitors are for.

You can't fix or recognize any problem unless you can't see how things should be.

All virtues are interrelated, and are virtuous inasmuch as they are good. Think good thoughts -> speak your mind -> walk your talk.

Yes, but you said it was better than, implying one or the other. You need to see how things are and how they should be.

And party on, dudes.

No, a paladin should be a shining beacon of one of the virtues above all others - not the paragon of all virtue.

>tfw you will never be a paladin of Veeky Forums
>You will never stand for excellence or partying on, dudes.
>You will never smite trolls or crossboard shitposters with the banhammer
>You will never have pic related as your coat of arms
Why live?

My Paladin is a Conqueror. Conquest Paladin. Everything but Love.
Me IRL

>Me IRL
You're an ugly, violent dude, or you lack love?

Kek. Humility is excluded.

what is morally right tho? I mean I play as national socialist paladin that is sworn to destroy the eternal jew. I know I'm right but I also now alot people don't think so

It is better. A mad man who sees things just as they should be is a hundred times better than someone who only sees things as they are.

Sure you can have both, but no normal person needs to be told to belief in the unsatisfactory present reality if they can see how things should be.

> I mean I play as national socialist paladin
Here's your (you)

The best Paladin should, but not every Paladin will. And sometimes it's more fun or better RP for a Paladin to specifically not have those traits. He can maybe even learn those traits over the campaign for Character development.

>A mad man who sees things just as they should be is a hundred times better than someone who only sees things as they are.
Give me an example, you have my attention.
>but no normal person needs to be told to belief in the unsatisfactory present reality if they can see how things should be.
But the entire point is if you cannot see the unsatisfactory present, you are in lala land and can't acknowledge or change it.

There's a certain Lord of La Mancha who did quite alright at changing the world just by seeing it the way he did.