Now that the dust has settled, what does Veeky Forums think of Starfinder?

It's what happens when someone thinks they can fix everything wrong with pathfinder/3.5/3E/5E by putting DnD in space
And they fuck it up so bad even their autists don't wanna play it.

No actual reason for it to exist. Hardcore Pathfaggots refuse to play it because it's not bog standard 3.5 fantasy. People into space opera RPGs won't touch it because they'd rather play systems that were actually good. People into space fantasy type games just play Star Wars. And anyone into Sci-Fi RPGs in general aren't going to play some shitty d20 mod when they could be playing a system that isn't rotten garbage.
There's just not a single audience this game could possibly appeal to, not even Paizo's own fucking fanbase.

>It tries correcting some of Pathfinder's flaws (particularly caster supremacy) but it still ends up making a lot of the same mistakes, as well as some new ones
That's exactly what Pathfinder was to 3.5. Seems like there's a pattern here.

>Errata is bigger then the core book
lolwut

I can't think of a reason to ever run it.

>There's just not a single audience this game could possibly appeal to, not even Paizo's own fucking fanbase.

That is both hilarious and tragic, and exactly the fate Paizo as a company deserves. They saw a fanbase and reinforced all the negative things about it, and now it's all they've got. Fuck 'em.

It's a weak setting that straddles being pathfinder in space and being generic star wars, and very predictably fails to make itself compelling in any way.

It's a weak system because, as others have said, in the process of trying to be somewhat compatible with pathfinder while addressing its flaws it fails to fix many of those flaws and makes plenty of new mistakes.

It isn't unsalvageable by any means, but why would you bother? There are plenty of better games with playerbases and published material already out there. It lacks the very few selling points pf has.

I'm really really bored playing it, and I LIKE Pathfinder.

I just think it doesn't lend itself well to the most Sci-fi aspects.

I've heard the game has some really fucky math on things, like how a high-quality lock is more expensive than a spacesuit, or that the difficulty-by-level math on any starship-related skills is wonky. Can anyone elaborate on those, or on other examples of the game's bad math?

I think it doesn't have an original bone in it's fucking body. It's Pathfinder in space but doesn't actually DO anything with that concept, and all the finer details are either stolen from something else or from Pathfinder itself.
Super noticeable in the artwork though,it's close to copyright infringement; every time I see something I'm like "Hey, that's from Halo. Hey, that's from 40k. Damn, that's straight up stolen from Mass Effect." and I'm not even super genre savvy, so someone with more experience than I could probably pull out a lot more stolen content.

This post nailed it but I'll add my two cents.

Starfinder has three major failings. Firstly, it uses has continued to use the monte cook d20 system from back in 2000 without addressing any of the problems with it around skill check DC's or high level play which resulted in completely broken starship rules.

Secondly, the paizo team are so fucking in love with their home campaign setting that they couldn't create a new product with the same races (similar to early spell jammer) or even set it in the same universe but far away from Glorian they had to make all of the lore centred around Glorian and how important this planet was just to remind everyone that you can't ever leave the fucking railroad.

And finally, they did not have a clear tone for the game which has resulted in it being a horrible mishmash of generic science fantasy, part dying earth (the sub-genre not the novels) and the cosmetic aspects of cheap cyberpunk without any of the depth or anti establishment themes. The setting offers nothing unique or interesting and is ultimately so full of shout outs to other paizo products that nobody who is not a paizo fan would look twice at it and the paizo fanbase hate it because it isn't generic high fantasy with caster supremacy.

2 sessions in to a game with gne third on the way. Group likes it so far. I'm ignoring ship and vehicle rules. I'm liking it.

... Your group doesn't contain a Formian, a rat and an edgelord, does it? Are you me from the mirror universe?

So if you're ignoring the vehicle rules are you running it solely on the space station setting or have you designed your own way to have the party explore space?

I'm legitimately curious.

They did errata the starship DCs, but they were very bad. While skills scale mostly 1 per level, DCs scaled 2 or even 3 per level, eventually making it near-impossible for you to pilot your ship.

The game doesn't bring anything to the table that Pathfinder did "right" while bringing a slew of its own problems. Some classes are absolute dogshit, there isn't much in the way of variety, starship combat is garbage and doesn't even have a timeframe for rounds, hacking feels lackluster and stupid, and the prices are pretty high.

It's a bad system. But that's just my opinion.

>no timeframe for rounds
Not even suggestions or fluff?

"Like combat between characters, starship combat occurs over a number of rounds until one side flees, surrenders, or is otherwise defeated. Unlike rounds in combat between characters, a round of starship combat doesn’t correlate to a specific amount of time. Each round of starship combat is divided up into three Phases, resolved in order. Each character aboard a starship typically acts in only one of these Phases, depending on her role on the starship."

I rarely see it talked about. I don't like Pathfinder, and since Starfinder is said to be Pathfinder but better in some ways and worse in some ways, I feel like it'd balance out to a system I wouldn't enjoy.

No, there are several classes who have no real magic or anything that could be called a replacement. They make up for it somewhat by limitin the game to half casters and making the entire game more gear dependent, but they still have a whole lot of spells do things that tech can't, some of which tech really SHOULD handle.

It apparently has sold really damn well to this point. I'm curious to see if it has any staying power, however. Sci-fi games are notoriously tricky at the best of times.

That's...not remotely true.

>doesn't even have a timeframe for rounds
OSRfag visiting for vindication, I really don't see how that's an issue. It's not like every normal combat need be exactly 1 minute. They could be ½ a minute, could be 5. Doesn't matter.

It's pretty decent. It's made a lot of improvements over the base pathfinder system and is dangerously close to having an actual identity of it's own. It's far from perfect but it's pretty decent.

I think it's a marked improvement over Pathfinder, but it's still Pathfinder-lite. However, the classes are a bit fuckily balanced. There are two archetypes for classes that are FAR ahead of what everyone else can do, and then you get shit like the Envoy and Solarians.

I don't need it because I already have Dragonstar

That'd be fine if player combat wasn't specifically sequestered into timed rounds, and the two never interacted. Neither is true.

There are only 2 archetypes in the game atm and they can be applied to all classes, and they both suck.

Sorry, I meant subclasses. It's a bit hard to make the transition between the two. Yes, all the archetypes suck.

Much like Eclipse phase its a good system with a shit setting.

Eclipse phase isn't a good system.

Yes it is, most of the flaws of the system are more chalked up to the awful setting that is forced into the rules.

However the best Sci-fi RPG is Traveller.

They really are not. The combat system is a bloody joke with almost no real options and the chargen system heavily promotes building infomorphs over anyone with an actual body to such a comical degree the infomorph can end up with twice the effective points to play with.

Admittedly I'm running an infomorph campaign based in an MMO simulspace.

Yeah, that bypasses one of the issues that shatters the game in half (And isn't even a hard one to run into as most games will encounter it in some capacity). You spend build points on stats and skills...and you also spend it on bodies and gear. In a system where you'll often be losing your body and gear because it's the main method of going from place to place or simply having it shot apart while the guy who started without a body can easily spend favours (Which replenish) to get fabricator access and just make himself a body.

Spending permanent resources on gear in a setting based around being able to 3D print anything is very silly.

Oh see that's what I'm talking about "setting" problems. Personally in my games I don't see the reason why you shouldn't take your gear and body/ies with you. In my setting if you are travelling, the sleeving facility is contractually obligated to provide you with a copy of the same body with all your upgrades and equivalent gear/weapons if you have a certain level of coverage.

It's a stain on the face of everything sci-fi.

Paizo has become a cult.

It's a mess. Only Pathfinder drones than don't even want to play something different to d20 would use that shit.

Pathfinderfags don't like it because it's not Pathfinder.
Anti-Pathfinderfags don't like it because it is Pathfinder.

thank you for your invaluable insight

Not quite user, Anti-Pathfinderfags don't like it because it's cool and they heard that's the cool thing to do.

It's kinda like the "caster supremacy" bullshit line even though none of them have even gotten to the level 9-12+ gameplay where the Barbarian stops being the best character in the game.

It comes when you speak about things with having 0 experience with them, so it's only natural.

>caster supremacy is bullshit

How can you expect to be taken seriously, when you hold opinions like that

...

...

I think if I wanted soft sci-fi high fantasy I could easily do it without touching Paizo's syphilitic cock.

This board would be so much better if we banned everyone in the Pathfinder General threads and anyone that said they like Pathfinder in other threads.

If you like Pathfinder you'll like it.

And I pity you for your awful taste and urge you to seek help.

I love this "Fergie" character and his utterly contradictory points

Kobold, dragonkin, shirren, and a human. The galaxy is especially small

I just told my group i didnt like the ship combat rules or the vehicle rules, they agreed. They're still flying the ship but we're just simplifying it down the "set course for x" and the npcs on board do the rest

Shit like envoys and solarions being good shit or bad shit? Solarions being Tanky as fuck with high damage melee and good mobility while envoys being an on-every-fight force multiplier that can't be duplicated by any other class in the game, they are excellent in their roles and work great in a group that wants to work together. Both will have significant trouble if you are either playing by yourself or trying to a a lone wolf in a team game.

I love it but the only starfinder game is some unholy pathfinder/starfinder hybrid. Also the local game stores can't get the core in stock so I can't buy them unless I order a pdf and I don't like them. I'm a customer and they won't make their product available to me...

>There's just not a single audience this game could possibly appeal to, not even Paizo's own fucking fanbase.
Horse shit. Paizo has not stayed in business for 16 years by failing to predict where and how it can turn a profit.

Also: we fixed space combat by disassociating the tier of our ship from our average level. I don't know why paizo just won't make that official.

The major problem I have with Solarions is that their game plan is to stay in the fight for as long as possible and power up, while every other class wants to END combat as quickly as possible. They seemed very greedy for "teamplay"

That zenith shit? It's more of a "oh shit, how has combat gone on this long, guess I'll end it now." Their stellar rush and plasma sheath are the main tickets and those are on from round 1.

It's meant to be the DND version of Edge of the empire/firefly, but ends up more boring than every single one of them
that's another thing, there's hardly anything out about the setting

And yet 4e is supposed to be great?

The OSR companies speak in awe of the Paizo CEO's business competence.

Not interested in Starfinder and please keep your Starfinder out of my Pathfinder.
One of my wife's sons was excited about Starfinder...until he saw how different it was from Pathfinder. He is no longer interested. Starfinder will not find it's way into my home. Pathfinder will never leave our hearts--mine or my wife's 5 sons.

I like it well enough.

I bought Dragonstar back in the day, and liked that too. I appreciate that Starfinder isn’t just a setting book for the existent system, with the new core classes, races, and a bit of the ol’ gunporn.

I understand why some people are cold on it. Good sci-fi tends to have a strong thematic and visual hook to try and make it distinct. Starfinder, instead, loots influences from all over, making it a little schizophrenic and generic. I think that speaks to its “Pathfinder in Space” design philosophy. Like D&D is billed as a generic fantasy game where you could mine stuff like Conan, Lord of the Rings, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, or Groo the Wanderer for plot ideas and have it work, Starfinder does the same thing with Mass Effect, Star Wars, Total Recall, and Blade Runner. I’m fine with that.

People are right that FFG’s Star Wars games are good, I’m not going to give anyone shit for preferring them. At my table though, I’ve got people who just don’t like Star Wars. I’m not one of them, but I am definitely sick of hashing out the same goddamn Light Side/Dark Side arguments. Having the Solarian there as the off-brand Jedi that doesn’t have to try and reconcile decades of power creep with game balance (such as it is) is a fine compromise for me.

And before anyone brings it up, they were turned off of Traveller by the lifepath system and the relative lethality.

Starfinder is fine. It has problems (I’m still waiting for some Feats I’m actually excited to take), but I’ve yet to find an RPG that doesn’t. Like everything Paizo churns out, it’s got a free SRD, and I feel that accessibility balances out the mediocrity well enough to justify its existence.

But FFG Star Wars is also comically lethal?

True, but I played that with a different group online. As I said, some of my table group legit hates Star Wars, so trying to pitch it to them is kind of a doomed prospect.

Does Starfinder have a rule where all strong men are proven wrong by purple haired women?

Casters start becoming load bearers of the party almost immediately, even in Starfinder. The skills help, there's stuff to do, but there's way too much that only mages can handle for a science fiction game with super tech.

Not as such, no.

There are only two core races that naturally have purple hair. The Lashuta are traditionally matriarchal, but that's softening as more men become academics.

Of course, the androids were a slave race until fairly recently, and are still indentured in a lot of places. If you want to bitch-slap a robomaid and tell her to get back in the kitchen, that's also a thing the setting supports.

Of course, any douchebag can take an Icon theme, dye their hair purple, and actively engage with their own echo chamber, if that's what you're into.

Why? Is your GM into Suicide Girls or something?

He's bitching about The Last Jedi.

It's probably worse than Pathfinder, in PF you can easily have a complete non-caster solo their CR+4 all the way up to level 20, but once casters get level 5 spells at around level 9 it stops being about fragility and enemies failing saves and goes off the deep end.

In Starfinder, you might not find the power balance shift at that level, but you'll find a shit-ton of sci-fi stuff that's not easily replicable by normies.

Ah.

Given that she died in a gesture that still wouldn't have been enough to save the Resistance if a Skywalker hadn't stepped in, I'll admit that I haven't been able to generate any outrage over that.

If anything, I'm more annoyed that Hyper Space drives don't work like that ... unless the First Order's flag ship is big enough to generate a gravity shadow, I suppose.

I doubt that

I'm not terribly familiar with the system, but what I've seen hasn't wowed me enough to consider using it over Stars Without Number (particularly now that the revised edition is out) or Savage Worlds.

Cool, they're so successful they took over the main DnD convention. It's a company that dominates the market, so even if you were pretty fucking stupid, which you are, you would realize there's no reason to doubt that.

It's also in the forward for Sword and Sorcery and a common talking point that even Zak has made so I guess that makes you a more delusional faggot than normal.

Next tell us how Apple and Google have no business sense so we can laugh at you.

sadly, this.

Paizo does have some extremely conservative business acumen lifting up realtively progressive yet also oddly nostalgic content.

i don't know how they do it, but they do.

That's not so hard, GenCon depends heavily on modules which 5e isn't spitting out daily. Their competition practically bowed out.

>It's a company that dominates the market, so even if you were pretty fucking stupid, which you are, you would realize there's no reason to doubt that.

There's plenty of reason to doubt that. Not everyone creates for the sake of making money. Plenty of OSR devs work for free and publish their works for free in fact.

That's kinda what it means to run a business; creating for the sake of money. No one's saying Paizo makes good tabletops, just that they make pretty damn good money.

>People who make free content don't praise good business sense.

I know this isn't related to what was said. But that does make some sense I guess? Stupid is as stupid does?

Yeah, to be fair they took it over before 5e and then 5e in it's entirety made a pretty weak showing at taking it back. They chose to go after a different market instead of competing.

That's fine. I don't doubt Paizo has good business acumen (not the same guy from before by the way). They had a good opportunity in the market and took good advantage of it, they were both lucky and prudent in this regard.

It doesn't mean that every other company out there is in envy of them, as there are plenty of companies that are run by people who create for the sake of creation and use their companies as a means to get their works out there.

>People are right that FFG’s Star Wars games are good, I’m not going to give anyone shit for preferring them. At my table though, I’ve got people who just don’t like Star Wars. I’m not one of them, but I am definitely sick of hashing out the same goddamn Light Side/Dark Side arguments. Having the Solarian there as the off-brand Jedi that doesn’t have to try and reconcile decades of power creep with game balance (such as it is) is a fine compromise for me.
You know Genesys is now a thing, right?

From Paizo's best sellers and top downloads lists, it looks like it's moving pretty well though that doesn't put any hard numbers in it... but unless Paizo is truly tanking across product lines, starfinder must be getting a broad player base. Once people know the rules, the system will stick around.

I didn't, actually. Though, honestly, I've got generic systems coming out of my ears.

Thanks for the tip, but I think I'll wait for someone else to propose a game on that one before I invest.

You can always check out /gengen/.

It's garbage

Why does Pathfinder get so much hate here? I think that it is fun.

I dislike Pathfinder in general, and I just wanna play something other then high-fantasy because it’s all the players at my game store want to play.

I think Starwars is a great movie series but I hate the players who want to play it because a great majority of them only want to be space samurai.

Other systems are nearly impossible to find a group for, mainly because anything other than D&D or PF is shunned for one reason or another.

1) It's Popular and that means it's bad.
2) Fans of Pathfinder like to claim that it fixed all of 3.5's problems or, most hilariously, claim that it's a completely different game from 3.5 which is just bullshit.
3) Pathfinder and DnD in general foster a specific kind of 'video gamey' style of gameplay that gets heavilly ingrained into player's minds. They expect every other RPG to be like dnd, with classes, levels, and to focus on roll-playing over roleplaying.
4) It's Popular and that means it's bad.
5) The setting is dumb and inconsistent. Even more so than official dnd settings.

What's the point when I can play Classic Traveler?

But how can any system where you crit when you roll dubs be bad?

I can forgive the vehicle rules because there's little need for them, but the ship rules are kind of vital to most games people want to play in a space setting.

>Pathfinder and DnD in general foster a specific kind of 'video gamey' style of gameplay that gets heavilly ingrained into player's minds. They expect every other RPG to be like dnd, with classes, levels, and to focus on roll-playing over roleplaying.

Mostly 3.PF; TSR, while it had some of the elements of what was coming, did codify and empower them like 3.PF did. 4e has strict combat rules, but fairly flexible rules for noncombat encounters.

Never played 5e, so I can't speak to it, but I imagine it hews closer to 3.PF.

That flamethrower pictured there is the most pathetic looking flamethrower that I've ever seen.

Even before looking at the goblin who seems to be being tickled by it.