When did D&D start/stop being sexualized?

>I want to say it mostly started after Gygax was kicked out
Yeah well, you can't. Gygax was the one who hired Elmore, Easley and crucially Caldwell. He fucking loved those guys' work.

So how did the whole "chainmail bikini" bullshit start with RPGs? Was it artists or writers? In the 70s I assume since there was a lot of free love stuff still going around.

>That's not even D&D art

No, but its pretty typical of a lot of official art at the time.

Artists. Basically entirely started by Boris Vallejo, who wanted to show off his anatomy drawing skills.

Vallejo was just imitating Frank Frazetta, who in turn built on ideas used by the artists who worked on pulp magazine covers in the 20s and 30s.

Vallejo's the one who turned it into softcore porn

And bless him for it. Him and his bisexual as fuck wife.

Getting paid to paint lewds of your muscle girl wife. Living the dream.

Contrary to popular belief, most women actually like the plate bikinis and RPing a sexy, powerful woman with big ol’ tiddies all the guys want. It’s in their psychology to attract as much men as possible
t. Girl

well of course t girls want to live that fantasy

>RPing a sexy, powerful woman with big ol’ tiddies all the guys want.

This is also what most men want.

t.guy

>for use with all levels of play

Pretty much. Only SJWs and fundies object to people having badwrongfun.

Anyone who's visited DeviantArt knows this is the truth, so many girls drawing themselves as hot fantasy beings, and I've never once seen any SJW-like complaints about it there, not that I make a point out of reading the comments, mind you.

literally the only people who complain are girls who are too ugly or too cucked to imagine themselves as hot

so instead they hate everything that is and make sexuality something evil to fight against

No, I don't think it has anything to do with that. These people are simply not aware of what goes on in the hobbies. They're not roleplayers, they don't read comics, they don't play the video games they complain about. They're out of touch and don't know what the fuck they're talking about and obsess over ideology without being able to put it in its proper context, and context is extremely important. It's why movies, games etc. that cater to SJWs don't sell, because they aren't consumers of the shit they complain about. It's not about jealousy, it's about speaking out of turn on topics they only think they're qualified to criticize. It's just pure ignorant ideology, it's modernism all over again.

>musclegirls

worst fetish

It was there from the beginning and it hasn't stopped. Does no one else remember the 3e nymph?

Better question is whatever happened to western/realist fantasy cheesecake in general?

It started out based on real women, then it started basing itself on the idealization of real women, and then it started basing itself on that etc., becoming more and more cartoonish all the time. Then came shit like Warcraft 3 and WoW with its shitty "fantasy isn't realistic anyway so you shouldn't care what it looks like, only what it represents in terms of rarity, stats and spechul snowflakeness." Anime didn't exactly help, either.

Warcraft 3 was incredible, you pleb.

It never entirely disappeared, but it became less omnipresent and pretty much never on the covers as DnD started to become "respectable".

Just generally there's less point to putting sexy art on things in a world where an infinite selection of porn exists freely on the internet. No one's buying DnD for the ecchi shots anyway, so why bother making your books look kind of trashy

You're forgetting guys who are ugly and bitter that people can be hot and comfortable express themselves sexually, like me haha

No it wasn't, shitter. There were plenty of better strategy games out at the time, with much less shitty art direction. WC3 was just good for modding multiplayer modes, the base game was nothing of note.

>Doesn't like muscle girls
You probably like sissy traps faggot

>Warcraft 3

Inferior to Total Annihilation that came out 5 years earlier

>doesn't like muscle girls dominating sissy traps

Agreed. The internet has this very weird effect of taking minority opinions and convincing people that everyone thinks that way

Best game ever, who doesn’t like watching robot people fight each other to the death?

Contrary to most opinion, many women do not like roleplaying generic big breasted bikini chainmail girls or your sorceress waifu fap bait material all the time. Sometimes it's fun, but not all the time.

Also it's fucking bullshit when a DM points out that since you're in a chainmail bikini, you get pretty much no armor coverage and that's why your character got her guts strewn all over the place. You said this was a "lets be silly" one shot game, Greg, and then suddenly you magical realm it with your weird gore and vore fetishes? What the fuck man this is why I don't play with you anymore.

...

Also inferior to Toal Annihilation Kingdoms, which was the slightly later fantasy version, and inferior to Warlords Battlecry 3, and inferior to Homeworld, and inferior to Medieval Total War.

Only if they're futas, tiny weeners don't make giant women feel good. That's the only time I like futa, futa on futa or futa on woman makes no sense to me.

Then don't wear a chainmail bikini unless you're a Barbarian, idiot

She was a barbarian though.

We wouldn't have had such a problem with it if we all didn't already know he had a fetish for that sort of stuff. He came clean to us months ago and promised he'd stop inserting it into all of our campaigns, but we did this one silly one shot and it all came right back. Once you hold up the game for ten minutes going into a vivid explanation of stomach acid eating away the busty elf cleric's robe and getting into her 'round soft breasts', you start getting a bit pissed.

So rather than try talking it out with him again, we just decided we weren't going to play with him anymore.

>sometimes it’s fun but not all the time
Ok so you admit that female players enjoy playing hot chicks. The rest of your little meltdown is pretty irrelevant to the discussion

Well yeah, sometimes people enjoy playing things they don't usually play. But the user up there made it sound like girls only ever want to play your fapfiction dreams. I can only assume using that user's logic that whenever someone plays a dwarf, they literally want to be Gimli. Why else would you play something you're not?

Just like every Blizzard game - a polished knockoff of an actually innovative product

A review of I9 (1986), with its harem girls cover, specifcially noted that it never would have passed muster when Gygax was still at TSR. Start looking around there.

Mr. Scholar of sexy fantasy art has arrived.
>I recognize that bulge

*shifts legs awkwardly* Damn, found out.
Oddly enough, I was browsing ebay and saw one of the L00K RARE entries for the module and went to read the wikipedia entry on it, which has that review. A minute later I notice this thread.

Well, I for one welcome an informed post on the subject, even if it's almost accidental.

>blaming videogames and anime
No, the hobby started moving away/fission from pseudo realistic war gamming, and with it the need to be realistic.

"Little meltdown" nigga what lmao.

>futa on futa or futa on woman makes no sense to me.

Wait, what?

>so many girls drawing themselves as hot fantasy beings,
This kinda hinges on the assumption that people on Deviant who say they're female are in fact female.

25 years of gaming and GMing. I have *literally* never seen anyone RP a character wearing lingerie as armored. Nor have I seen it argued at all.

If it's just a dick going into a woman, then just make it male on female. The same coupld be said of futa on trap perhaps, but the point of futa on trap is that it emphasizes the altered power dynamic by making the girl guy renounce his dick for a woman's masculine dominance and the dick that represents it.
Most of them draw really gay-looking fantasy dudes as well.

>If it's just a dick going into a woman, then just make it male on female.

Meh, not everyone's kink is another dude giving it to your waifu (etc)

You'd rather get cucked by a woman with a dick?

Property entertaining each other doesn't bother me in the least.

Why do you think power dynamics require dongs?

The only risque artwork in the original Men and Magic was done by a woman, who did the Beautiful Witch and the Amazon.

...

I said they emphasize the power dynamics. Dude with dick is too submissive to use it, and sexually dominant girl is so dominant she has the ultimate tool of sexual dominance. If you don't want to emphasize it like that, just do dominant dude on submissive girl and be vanilla as fuck.

>worst fetish
What is feet?

What kind of barbarian tribe knows how to make chainmail?

This. There's nothing even wrong with feet themselves, and they can be attractive on their own, but foot fetish material and foot fetishists somehow make this all completely repulsive with hyperfocus on them and how they behave and shit

The one that's neither Greek nor Roman.

And later on the lady who did the designs in EverQuest directly based it on her art because that's what was popular in heroic fiction at the time.

You don't need a dong to be sexually dominant, nor do you need a dong-like object — ie, strap-on.

I should say I hate futa, that is, women with a vag and a dong. The anatomy is always,
always just completely fucked and it triggers me. Dick-only is fine, though.

Busy day in that town.

"I'm drawing art for a male dominated past time, what do men like? Tits."

Also don't forget that she was commissioned to draw them.

No, but the dick is absolutely a symbol of power and dominance especially in gender relations.

>to give emphasis to; lay stress upon; stress: to emphasize a point; to emphasize the eyes with mascara

Barbarians do not make, they take!

Symbols are subjective. In /ss/ it sure as hell isn't.

/ss/ uses it as a subversion, that's still playing off the same symbology and power dynamics.

> girls who are too ugly or too cucked to imagine themselves as hot
>No, I don't think it has anything to do with that.
yes it its that
sexual neuroticism is the core issue of sex negative feminism. dworkin is the founder of sex negative feminism and had one of the highest levels of neuroticism you will ever see. see was horrifically ugly (because she has no self control) and spent her life in and out of mental hospitals.

sexual neuroticism is the fundamental feature of sex negative feminism. fear, hatred, and jealously with regard to sex are the primary motivators for them. they are incapable of enjoying the normal, natural, healthy, and fun ecosystem of sexuality, and they must therefore destroy it for everyone else.

Eh, its about power dynamics but mostly social ones.

There is of course a difference between /ss/ with normal proportioned women vs freaky proportioned women.

Some were but more than half of the naked women in the original books were illustrated by women, and some arrived unsolicited in the mail or were illustrations from friends and family of Gary's.

Basically, stop trying to apply modern femininst ideals of anti-sex to a pro-sexual feminist era.

Symbols aren't really subjective in their meaning, the dick is objectively speaking a symbol of masculine sexual dominance in lots of cultures, just like big breasts and wide hips are objectively often a symbol of female fertility. That doesn't mean a person with a dick is objectively speaking going to be sexually dominant, but it means that if one person with a dick is sexually submissive, he's going against cultural mores, which further drives home how submissive he is. For a woman to submit sexually to a man is a common cultural standard, for a man to submit sexually to a woman is going against the grain. For a man to submissively be fucked with a dick is also going against the grain. For a man (usually dominant) to be fucked by a dick (submissive) belonging to a woman (usually submissive and usually incapable of penetrating anyone sexually), that's a pretty intense reversal.

I'm ugly and bitter about it, but I don't feel compelled to ruin it for others.
I don't understand why making it as unfun for everyone else helps me at all.

1E - before I was born so no clue. I just imagine that there were nothing but ripped barbarians and giant monoboob monsters.

2E/AD&D - mix of soft cheese and fantasy. Women relegated to either bikini babes or wizards/sorceresses. Wildly varying from U-18MA. Mainly depended on the setting and the topics. At the time gender changing would be quite *trans*gressive, wherease in the time of 4/5E not so much.

3E - more female PCs with accompanying cleavage.Cheesecake factor varied dependant on supplement and/or artist. Varied from 12YA to 18MA. Some bits were 'edgy' but most was 12-15 or just sensible because we're ok with violence!

4E - more inclusive, dragonboobs but certainly more balanced overall. More 'family friendly'
Varied from PG - 15, most being in the 12 camp. Even darksun wasn't that horrible 15s at worst.

5E PG-12 with a touch of 15s. More inclusive across the board. Still on an overall 12 which is fine for the default high fantasy world. But not so bad that you can't run alternate settings. Ravenloft is in the 15-18 range on a good day, I suspect that Dark Sun will be quite similar in terms of lethality and maturity (slavery, forced breeding, the general anti-hero conditions and world setting that discourages 'heroes')

Gygax wanted to sell D&D in toy stores as a boardgame and was not able to, and so he deliberately softened the image of the game in many areas not just sexuality. This did not immediately end with his ouster but was hugely unpopular with fans and 2e remains contentious among fans as the toy store kiddy edition of the game to this day.

TSR did start moving back towards a more salacious image after they realized D&D was not marketable to 8 year olds, but it had previously also been too edgy for toys r us, so this did not start in the 80s. The kiddification of the game started in the 80s. The game would be better today if WotC did not also try putting D&D in toy stores later, and Pathfinder would have been better if they had continued publishing adventures like Hook Mountain Massacre which were very much in tone with the original D&D community as well as the source material it was thematically based on like R.E.H.'s Conan.

The market is a hobbyist and collector one which means attracting disposable income. Which means people with jobs usually, and no one likes "adult" themes more than young men who revel in their "adultness". Kiddy stuff basically sells to no one except defectives like Bronies are as a consequence of their brokenness perennially destitute. But that is who even more niche TRPGs cater to.

because you are not neurotic.
you might be ugly, but you arent neurotic
thats the issue
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroticism

Bullshit. I don't doubt that thing about Dworkin, but that doesn't say anything about all the other people disliking chain bikinis. Lots of people who dislike leather thongs on female adventurers have nothing at all against a female character being pretty and having sexual relations with people, they just don't like them being overly objectified.

From what I recall from an interview from a TSR dude (can't recall the name) Gygax wasn't there only one reasonable for finding and hiring artists.

According to that I am extremely neurotic.
I'm hilariously jealous and envious of others, I just understand that breaking them down doesn't help me.

>they just don't like them being overly objectified.
that is neuroticism.
objectification,was invented by dworkin and mckinnon.
and only neurotic people thing sexuality is objectifying, because they naturally interpret non threatening things as threatening.

If you believe that beauty is socially constructed than changing the world will make you more desirable to the people you desire. Basically all of female politics is about how in the new world we will create the individual woman advocating for said policy will be "hotter". It's sad.

>that is neuroticism
>you are neurotic if you don't think pic related should be the standard for female fantasy characters
No, it isn't. I love cheesecake, but I sure as hell don't want it everywhere on every female character, that's just crass and yes, sexist. Doesn't make the slightest bit neurotic, but good luck arguing that I am.

>implying Dark Sun is getting anywhere near 5e

TIL that you are anti-sex if you prefer your female characters to not dress like strippers all the time and chainmail/leather/cloth bikinis are literally the only way for adventurers to dress that emphasizes the feminine figure.

user doesn't want a qt3.14 alchemist in a nice enchanted bodice, skirt, and chemise.

>Symbols aren't really subjective in their meaning

Symbols are inherently subjective, it cannot get more subjective than symbolism... which is about what it symbolizes to a given subject.

> the dick is objectively speaking a symbol of masculine sexual dominance in lots of cultures,

The dick is objectively speaking a dick and in a lot of cultures men and dicks are dominant. In a lot of cultures women are second class citizens. An appeal to cultural relativism however is the precise opposite of objectivity, its a retreat into subjectivism.

I will certainly agree that as far as homosexuality (with regards to "dicks going into men") and hard core pornography are concerned they do tend to be more heavily about power, both situations where normal gender relations don't much apply. On the other hand, they are also themselves subversive (from the perspective of western norms). Conventional notions of power don't really apply in modern society and its extremely difficult to argue at all that men hold power with regards to sex; this is the sort of nonsense that leads to cultists who argue that women exposing flesh is objectification.

No, you're anti-sex if you complain about any instance of female characters looking sexy. Not all female characters MUST be, just that some are and that's ok.

>, but I sure as hell don't want it everywhere on every female character,
Nobody in this thread has come close to disputing that.

holy shit look at this anti-sex feminist literally ruining your magical realm!

>Also don't forget that she was commissioned to draw them.
She got what... $10 for that amazon? Less? The kid who was tracing comic books got $2 per image.

> No, you're anti-sex if you complain about any instance of female characters looking sexy. Not all female characters MUST be, just that some are and that's ok.

Which is it dude? Do all female characters need to dress like strippers so we don't get accused of being the anti-sex league, or is it ok to not base everything on cheesecake from the 80s and that people have different standards of what is sexually attractive?